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"Undermine the Institution of Marriage" - 5/13/2012 5:15:08 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

WASHINGTON—Cardinal Timothy Dolan, president of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB), issued the following statement:

President Obama’s comments today in support of the redefinition of marriage are deeply saddening. As I stated in my public letter to the President on September 20, 2011, the Catholic Bishops stand ready to affirm every positive measure taken by the President and the Administration to strengthen marriage and the family. However, we cannot be silent in the face of words or actions that would undermine the institution of marriage, the very cornerstone of our society. The people of this country, especially our children, deserve better. Unfortunately, President Obama’s words today are not surprising since they follow upon various actions already taken by his Administration that erode or ignore the unique meaning of marriage. I pray for the President every day, and will continue to pray that he and his Administration act justly to uphold and protect marriage as the union of one man and one woman. May we all work to promote and protect marriage and by so doing serve the true good of all persons.

Source: USCCB. Emphasis mine.


I know we have a number of gay marriage threads, and I apologize for starting another. But I've been puzzling over an oft-made point, which I've bolded in the quote above, that surfaced in Cardinal Dolan's statement.

Perhaps I’m blinded by my homosexual agenda, but I honestly don’t get how gay marriage would affect straight marriage. Would straight folks really be less likely to get or stay married as a result of same-sex weddings? Would opposite-sex couples view their vows as any less sacred simply because same-sex couples were now making them too? Wouldn’t the overall married population, and percentage of children reared by married parents, more likely increase than decrease if marriage were open to gay couples as well?

For an entertaining, somewhat ribald, take on the same question, I refer you to the eminent theologian Wanda Sykes.

I do understand that some folks object to gay marriage because it would imply a social sanction of homosexuality, but that strikes me as a different point.




< Message edited by dcnovice -- 5/13/2012 5:17:19 PM >

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RE: "Undermine the Institution of Marriage" - 5/13/2012 5:25:16 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

I do understand that some folks object to gay marriage because it would imply a social sanction of homosexuality, but that strikes me as a different point.


Not really. I think that is exactly the point implicit but not said aloud in the defence of marriage agenda.

Sort of like the defence of property values during the integration furor of the 1970s.

Code words and phrases, yanno.

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RE: "Undermine the Institution of Marriage" - 5/13/2012 5:39:03 PM   
kalikshama


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Status: offline 		My parents and I were raised Catholic and my mother very devout and studious until the 1980s and none of us see the big deal about same-sex marriage. In fact, Mom obtained the Massachusetts one day license and performed the marriage for her former housemate and his partner.

Jon Stewart looked into this and found "Marriage originated as a social construct that allowed family patriarchs to facilitate a transfer of chattel property, such as livestock or daughters through lawful contracts..."

My Dad and I were talking about the Vatican smackdown of the nuns story and I can't repeat what he had to say about the Vatican.

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RE: "Undermine the Institution of Marriage" - 5/13/2012 6:59:03 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

I do understand that some folks object to gay marriage because it would imply a social sanction of homosexuality, but that strikes me as a different point.


Not really. I think that is exactly the point implicit but not said aloud in the defence of marriage agenda.

Sort of like the defence of property values during the integration furor of the 1970s.

Code words and phrases, yanno.


Good point, Vincent. In a burst of masochism, I've been following the gay marriage discussions at a conservative Anglican blog, and it strikes me again and again that folks' real concern is the destigmatization of homosexuality rather than any concrete threat to straight marriage. It also occurs to me, with some help from Wanda Sykes, that if the real concern were the "sanctity of marriage," addressing the divorce rate would be a much more productive outlet for one's energy than outlawing gay marriage.

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RE: "Undermine the Institution of Marriage" - 5/13/2012 7:07:51 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

it strikes me again and again that folks' real concern is the destigmatization of homosexuality rather than any concrete threat to straight marriage.


To amplify this point, I've wondered now and then if the real terror aroused by gay marriage is the possibility that it won't damage straight marriage, that folks will see that society doesn't crumble in the face of acceptance of homosexuality. That would make it all the harder that to argue that our laws and attitudes should continue to stem from the prejudices of a patriarchal, pre-scientific tribe wandering in the desert thousands of years ago.

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RE: "Undermine the Institution of Marriage" - 5/13/2012 7:23:14 PM   
Master2811


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

WASHINGTON—Cardinal Timothy Dolan, president of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB), issued the following statement:

President Obama’s comments today in support of the redefinition of marriage are deeply saddening. As I stated in my public letter to the President on September 20, 2011, the Catholic Bishops stand ready to affirm every positive measure taken by the President and the Administration to strengthen marriage and the family. However, we cannot be silent in the face of words or actions that would undermine the institution of marriage, the very cornerstone of our society. The people of this country, especially our children, deserve better. Unfortunately, President Obama’s words today are not surprising since they follow upon various actions already taken by his Administration that erode or ignore the unique meaning of marriage. I pray for the President every day, and will continue to pray that he and his Administration act justly to uphold and protect marriage as the union of one man and one woman. May we all work to promote and protect marriage and by so doing serve the true good of all persons.

Source: USCCB. Emphasis mine.


Fits wonderfully in the antichrist agenda of the democrats and parts of the republicans.

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RE: "Undermine the Institution of Marriage" - 5/13/2012 7:44:55 PM   
Hillwilliam


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Status: offline 		Cardinal Timothy Dolan...hmmmmmmmmm

WTF is someone who is NOT allowed to marry doing lecturing the rest of us on who we ARE allowed to marry?

< Message edited by Hillwilliam -- 5/13/2012 7:46:49 PM >

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RE: "Undermine the Institution of Marriage" - 5/13/2012 7:46:06 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Master2811


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

WASHINGTON—Cardinal Timothy Dolan, president of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB), issued the following statement:

President Obama’s comments today in support of the redefinition of marriage are deeply saddening. As I stated in my public letter to the President on September 20, 2011, the Catholic Bishops stand ready to affirm every positive measure taken by the President and the Administration to strengthen marriage and the family. However, we cannot be silent in the face of words or actions that would undermine the institution of marriage, the very cornerstone of our society. The people of this country, especially our children, deserve better. Unfortunately, President Obama’s words today are not surprising since they follow upon various actions already taken by his Administration that erode or ignore the unique meaning of marriage. I pray for the President every day, and will continue to pray that he and his Administration act justly to uphold and protect marriage as the union of one man and one woman. May we all work to promote and protect marriage and by so doing serve the true good of all persons.

Source: USCCB. Emphasis mine.


Fits wonderfully in the antichrist agenda of the democrats and parts of the republicans.


Care to elaborate or are you just talking out your ass?

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RE: "Undermine the Institution of Marriage" - 5/13/2012 8:38:58 PM   
DarkSteven


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Status: offline 		The Catholic Church denies marriage to its priests and nuns. Why are they saying that it's the cornerstone of our society? That's like Santorum saying that people shouldn't go to college.

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RE: "Undermine the Institution of Marriage" - 5/13/2012 8:59:56 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

Fits wonderfully in the antichrist agenda of the democrats and parts of the republicans.


Oh PLLLLLLEEEAASE ... Tell us all about your vast knowledge of this 'agenda'.

We're all riveted to our seats waiting to be enlightened.

You got the floor ... go for it...

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RE: "Undermine the Institution of Marriage" - 5/13/2012 9:05:40 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

Cardinal Timothy Dolan...hmmmmmmmmm

WTF is someone who is NOT allowed to marry doing lecturing the rest of us on who we ARE allowed to marry?


I am going to buy a Boston Globe in the morning and if there's a word of this nonsense in the paper, I'm going down to my diocese to chat with the bishop myself (and maybe a friend from the globe in tow to catch the "Bishop Refuses To See Parishioner In His Diocese" story).
It's particularly egregious in Massachusetts where the priest from that very same church gave a lot of now gay adults their first experience.


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RE: "Undermine the Institution of Marriage" - 5/13/2012 9:16:24 PM   
Real0ne


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would someone please tell me why everyone in the world seems to think they need a "license" to get married? That is the funniest shit I think I ever heard.

Someone please tell me a rational reason for it. Ok how about an irrational reason?



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RE: "Undermine the Institution of Marriage" - 5/13/2012 9:23:11 PM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		It's a mystery to me how this is so:

quote:

the institution of marriage [is] the very cornerstone of our society.

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RE: "Undermine the Institution of Marriage" - 5/13/2012 9:23:53 PM   
Fightdirecto


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Master2811
Fits wonderfully in the antichrist agenda of the democrats and parts of the republicans.


If you had written, "the anti-Roman Catholic agenda" I would have let your comment go by without comment.

However, a select, splinter group of Roman Catholic bishops do not represent all Christians - in fact, there are some of us Christians, including some Roman Catholics, who aren't all that sure that this select, splinter group of Roman Catholic bishops are actually Christians. Their "Christianity" doesn't match my Christianity - or the Christianity of millions, Protestant and Roman Catholic, here in the United States and in other nations as well.


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RE: "Undermine the Institution of Marriage" - 5/13/2012 9:25:42 PM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

fr

would someone please tell me why everyone in the world seems to think they need a "license" to get married? That is the funniest shit I think I ever heard.

Someone please tell me a rational reason for it. Ok how about an irrational reason?




It permits the sharing of benefits and allows you to see your loved one in the hospital.

Plus, it's got the same reasons that straight people want to get married - the commitment itself, and the recognition of the relationship.

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RE: "Undermine the Institution of Marriage" - 5/13/2012 9:34:18 PM   
Karmastic


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quote:

because it would imply a social sanction of homosexuality


i think in their minds, that = words or actions that would undermine the institution of marriage, the very cornerstone of our society



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RE: "Undermine the Institution of Marriage" - 5/13/2012 9:38:14 PM   
DaddySatyr


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Status: offline 		What's really ironic (to me) is that these same bishops are the cause of the problem.

Think about it: they espouse the "duty" of good Christians/Catholics who have not heard the calling of religious orders to get married and procreate. Right?

They insist that birth control and abortion are "no-no"s?

Therefore, the marriages that these bishops are insistent upon are creating more homosexuals. It's the heterosexual couples that create homosexuals. Clearly, if these bishops want to wipe out homosexuality, they need to vilify marriage and procreation and the problem will be solved.

Right?

Oh! Happy Mothers' Day!



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RE: "Undermine the Institution of Marriage" - 5/13/2012 9:52:42 PM   
erieangel


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Status: offline 		I wish the US Conference of Catholic Bishops would get the hell out of our politics. They want to set rules for American Catholics to follow, that's fine, they shouldn't be trying to set US policy.

Why is it every nutty, fringe group is trying ram their morality down the throats of every one of us?

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RE: "Undermine the Institution of Marriage" - 5/13/2012 10:30:33 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

would someone please tell me why everyone in the world seems to think they need a "license" to get married?


Ever own a thing called "Real Property"?

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RE: "Undermine the Institution of Marriage" - 5/13/2012 10:41:22 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

It permits the sharing of benefits and allows you to see your loved one in the hospital.




Not just see them, Steve, but have right to make medical decisions if required. This aspect played a big role in my own thinking on the matter.

I'll try to get back to offer a few thoughts on the meat of the OP's question, but I don't think it's going to happen tonight.

Oh, and completely off topic, go see The Avengers. It's everything a summer movie should be.


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