RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAINST government tyranny (Full Version)

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BamaD -> RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAINST government tyranny (5/16/2012 6:02:53 AM)

Yo seem to be confused. Nobody says it is there in case you don't like the outcome of an election. It is the right of last resort when you have to choose between dieing on your feet and living on your knees. It comes into play when discussion of the Constitution becomes irrelevant as it has been overturned or totally subverted (such as martial law)
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

The topic is the absurdity of the claim that the founding fathers set up this balanced compromise of government with the proviso that if you didn't like the way the voters decided you could just start shooting.






mnottertail -> RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAINST government tyranny (5/16/2012 6:10:56 AM)

But corporations are people, not just 3/5ths people, their are alotta teabaggers on their knees now, and still they won't rise up. 



vincentML -> RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAINST government tyranny (5/16/2012 6:48:12 AM)

quote:

The 2nd Amendment, as understood locally (and I mean, Concord, MA locally), its very different to how its currently 'understood'. Since Concord, MA only played a 'small' part in US History....

The state that actually pushed to have the 2nd added to the US Consititution was Deleware.


An excellent and informative post, joether. Thanks!
[sm=goodpost.gif]



vincentML -> RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAINST government tyranny (5/16/2012 6:55:12 AM)

~FR~ off topic

I find it interesting and telling that women were not fractioned even though they could not vote and for the most part worked without wages, receiving only shelter and food like black slaves. Tells me the plantation States were trying to usurp an unfair share of political power from the gitgo.



Nosathro -> RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAINST government tyranny (5/16/2012 6:59:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Most other places use a Parlimentary system with one house which chooses a PM much like the Speaker of the house is chosen.


In a Parlimentary system elections are by party not by person. When a party achieves the majority of seats the head of the party becomes the PM.  If there is no clear party that majority parties may agree to join and from there a PM is choosen, by agreement with all parties. 



mnottertail -> RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAINST government tyranny (5/16/2012 7:02:36 AM)

But that is a multiparty system.  Here there is only one.


Highlander



Nosathro -> RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAINST government tyranny (5/16/2012 8:53:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

But that is a multiparty system.  Here there is only one.


Highlander


If you are asking me we are reconized as a two party system...but yes there are other parties but they are small and for various reasons can't get on the voting ballot.  a Miltiparty system are muck like the Europeans countries that have several parties in the elections.



Musicmystery -> RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAINST government tyranny (5/16/2012 9:15:21 AM)

quote:

It is the right of last resort when you have to choose between dieing on your feet and living on your knees. It comes into play when discussion of the Constitution becomes irrelevant as it has been overturned or totally subverted (such as martial law)


1) That "right" has a name--treason.
2) Martial law would mean the U.S. has ended.
3) The amendment's intent, as Madison's work shows, was to protect the States against Federal military ambition.
4) If our military ever took over, you wouldn't even get to play with your arsenal. It would be over before you woke up.
5) NOTHING ANYWHERE indicates a thought, concern, prediction, or even fantasy the founders had the slightest concern about this. In fact, Madison makes the point that we can have armed militias BECAUSE we are NOT Europe and need not fear what European monarchies would naturally fear. This is TOTALLY a 20th/21st century NRA/redneck fantasy.
6) Clearly, history degrees didn't require much critical thinking skill when they were awarded back in the day. Or spelling skills.



Musicmystery -> RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAINST government tyranny (5/16/2012 9:19:33 AM)

quote:

When a party achieves the majority of seats the head of the party becomes the PM.


No. A plurality, with a coalition government.



Yachtie -> RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAINST government tyranny (5/16/2012 9:23:27 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
1) That "right" has a name--treason.



That's exactly what King George III said. Some people thought otherwise though.



Musicmystery -> RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAINST government tyranny (5/16/2012 9:28:47 AM)

Those people had to start a new country.

Go start yours. But to pretend that's the intent of the U.S. Constitution is just Rambo-fantasy crap.

Yet again--nobody wants to touch points 2 and 3. That's because the NRA hasn't told you what to say yet.
quote:


And (1) they're talking about England; (2) the U.S. HAS that "consent of the governed" in the form of elections (even when people weren't allowed to vote directly, or at all for Senators, and especially not for slaves); (3) same question as before--if they meant this government to be overthrown at will, there would be no such crime as treason.



thompsonx -> RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAINST government tyranny (5/16/2012 10:04:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Slaves for agriculture extended to Delaware. But the houshold staff's of many northern households were slaves. This made only counting 60% the best the antislave people could do at that time. And contrary to what many beleive this was intended to REDUCE the political clout of slaveholder.


I am unclear as to how you or anyone past or present can sugest that chattel have voting rights or the right to be counted.
Slaves were chattel like horses or cows.
When you allow chattel to be counted either as votes or representation you validate your excursion from reality,logic and rational thought.
That you persist in this moronic belief is mind numbing.



Yachtie -> RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAINST government tyranny (5/16/2012 10:05:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Those people had to start a new country.

Go start yours. But to pretend that's the intent of the U.S. Constitution is just Rambo-fantasy crap.

Yet again--nobody wants to touch points 2 and 3. That's because the NRA hasn't told you what to say yet.
quote:


And (1) they're talking about England; (2) the U.S. HAS that "consent of the governed" in the form of elections (even when people weren't allowed to vote directly, or at all for Senators, and especially not for slaves); (3) same question as before--if they meant this government to be overthrown at will, there would be no such crime as treason.



Of course that wasn't the intent. You say that #2 and #3 are not being touched. Ok, lets touch them with a fairly recent example.

Hitler came to power via electoral means. Proper under their Constitution at that time. Everything he did to achieve power was lawful. He governed by consent of the governed. There eventually came a time where even his own generals tried to kill him.

Hitler called them traitors and had them executed. They knew it was treason by legal stricture, but they also knew it to be patriotic due to circumstances obvious to most.

You mistake the argument MM. It has nothing to do with "at will" but when circumstances dictate the necessity. Those circumstances can not qualified as to some exactitude or rule. Neither can the method necessity takes. Those happen unto themselves, when sufficient people have had enough. This is not to even say that all will agree. But that's the way of it.

Now, perhaps the French revolution might also be a good example.










thompsonx -> RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAINST government tyranny (5/16/2012 10:05:52 AM)

quote:

The rule is one vote per each citizen. The south wanted to have representation for their chattel also. So by allowing them to have their chattel be counted their power was increased not reduced.




so then the heros here are in reality the south since they wanted voting rights for the slaves and the north are the assholes that fought a war for what again??


Would you have a cite for your contention that the south wanted to enfranchise the slaves?



thompsonx -> RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAINST government tyranny (5/16/2012 10:07:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

They have a greater % of the electoral vote than the popular vote. Also you hsve to carry some of the smaller states to win. With without any support from a particular region, say the farm belt.



Really...you are going to have to prove that one.

Well according to the statics..California has the most Electorial College votes, 55, and is also very populated state some 37 plus million.  The next state is Texas, 38 Electorial College votes..population some 25, 145, 561...and so on and so on



Perhaps you should read what I have posted before you disagree with it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

You know that the electral college was created not so much from distrust of the people as to keep the small states from being overwhlmed and ignored in favor of the big states.




Really????
Just how does that work?
The small states have fewer electoral votes than the large states,just like they have fewer repesentatives.
If you go back and look at the constitution the electoral college was appointed by the state legislatures thus removing the appointing of the president and vice president from the general population.

I am not sure who is disageeing with you..I just made a statemen


Should you read what you post you would realize that you were disagreeing with me.



thompsonx -> RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAINST government tyranny (5/16/2012 10:09:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

All of that is true but the elctral college gives the small states greater say than they would have in a straight up vote.


Wrong...it is proportional just like the house of representatives mr. history major.



thompsonx -> RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAINST government tyranny (5/16/2012 10:10:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Most other places use a Parlimentary system with one house which chooses a PM much like the Speaker of the house is chosen.


Could you tell us who most of these "other places" are.



mnottertail -> RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAINST government tyranny (5/16/2012 10:12:20 AM)

Hitler came to power via electoral means. Proper under their Constitution at that time. Everything he did to achieve power was lawful. He governed by consent of the governed.

He then had the legislature abolished and the constitution torn up.

I will stop right there, Because any american would stop right there.

There was no such ragnarok contemplated.




Yachtie -> RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAINST government tyranny (5/16/2012 10:17:27 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Hitler came to power via electoral means. Proper under their Constitution at that time. Everything he did to achieve power was lawful. He governed by consent of the governed.

He then had the legislature abolished and the constitution torn up.

I will stop right there, Because any american would stop right there.

There was no such ragnarok contemplated.



You missed the point.

Tell me MM, just what might be enough to piss off enough Americans to say ENOUGH?



thompsonx -> RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAINST government tyranny (5/16/2012 10:18:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

But that is a multiparty system.  Here there is only one.


Highlander


If you are asking me we are reconized as a two party system...but yes there are other parties but they are small and for various reasons can't get on the voting ballot.  a Miltiparty system are muck like the Europeans countries that have several parties in the elections.



Two party?
Please explane to us what is the difference between the demopubs and the republicrats?
So far the only difference I can detect between the last president and the current one is that the current one has bigger ears and is more articulate. I do not detect any difference in direction or policy.
If you do please share them with us.



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