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RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAIN... - 5/14/2012 2:48:25 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

The law the bill of rights is based in goes back to the beginning of time.


A LOT of societies missed that memo.



not common law societies where you from borneo?

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAIN... - 5/14/2012 2:48:41 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Racism, or the lack of it, isn't the point. That we today read this with very different intent, and that we have no interest in going back to the original intent here, is exactly the point.

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAIN... - 5/14/2012 2:50:03 PM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Would you care to tell us how many times the army has been disbanded?


Irrelevant. The fact is, only the Navy is to be provided and maintained perpetually by Constitutional requirement. The fact that the Army has not been disbanded in no way states that it can't.




_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAIN... - 5/14/2012 2:50:09 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

The original intent was to treat negro slaves as less than people. They were even counted that way (what was it, 2/5 of a person?).

If you viewed current discussions about race by the original intent, we'd have a host of problems.

And that's just one obvious point. Things aren't like they were in 1789.


3/5ths and it was to give the southern states more unwarranted representation. 

Thanks.


apparently he feels that their vote should not have counted for anything at all.

your welcome.



I will give you a second to think about that, and miss the obvious as always, and even longer for everyone gathered here to laugh at you for that totally cretinous notion you have regaled us with. 

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAIN... - 5/14/2012 2:53:15 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Something that happened in 1861 could not affect the INTENT of something written in 1789 comprehension of this fact could not in any rational way be interepeted to mean that I was ignoring The War of Northern Agression merely that as it happened yet the founders clearly could not have taken it into account.


Exactly my point. The Founders could not take into account any conditions of the Republic in the FUTURE. The writings and opinions of the Founders are expressions of their time, not ours. That was then; this is Now. The FUTURE is us. The words of the Founders have limited utility unless they are reinterpreted to today's requirements. That's why we have a Court system that interprets the Constitution as a living document. Otherwise, we are doomed to play "groundhog day" forever in the Eighteenth Century. Truth is relative to time and place. And in our time and place we are ONE nation. Not a confederacy of nation-states. As I said, the matter was settled at Appomattox. The times they are a changing. It is fruitless to debate what was said by Madison, Jefferson, or any of their contemporaries. Fun, but futile because we make our own NOW.



The constitution is a set of timeless principles that are as valid today as they were back in the day. Maybe you think freedom of speech can somehow evolve into some kind of living organism too. This living document BS is a means for some who would interpret the constitution to suit their own needs.



agreed, in so far as rights are concerned it is based in a long history of court decisions forming 3what is called stare decis.

Not the whinsical crap people put to their "living" document. LOL

In so far as the bringing forward of english statutes, well thats the living whinsical part by sovereign prerogative.

see the duke of new york and how that government evolved for perfet examples.

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to lovmuffin)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAIN... - 5/14/2012 2:54:47 PM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Racism, or the lack of it, isn't the point. That we today read this with very different intent, and that we have no interest in going back to the original intent here, is exactly the point.


If reading the Constitution is to be effected by current intent, why any need to amend it all under any circumstances? Just let it mean what one wishes it to mean. Just pay lip service to it and be done with it.

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAIN... - 5/14/2012 2:55:32 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline 		hows business?



_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAIN... - 5/14/2012 2:58:24 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Racism, or the lack of it, isn't the point. That we today read this with very different intent, and that we have no interest in going back to the original intent here, is exactly the point.


If reading the Constitution is to be effected by current intent, why any need to amend it all under any circumstances? Just let it mean what one wishes it to mean. Just pay lip service to it and be done with it.

What a silly either/or argument.

"Original intent" is being read precisely to "Just let it mean what one wishes it to mean." THAT'S the point here.

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAIN... - 5/14/2012 2:59:47 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Racism, or the lack of it, isn't the point. That we today read this with very different intent, and that we have no interest in going back to the original intent here, is exactly the point.


You miss the core elements of everything.

I am so happy you are not sitting on any bench anywhere in the world!

thank you God!



_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAIN... - 5/14/2012 3:01:30 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

The original intent was to treat negro slaves as less than people. They were even counted that way (what was it, 2/5 of a person?).



Wrong.

Do us all a favor. Please get educated.



This from your cite:

We call attention to this outrage, simply to remind the people of America that fraud yet reigns in our national capital, in our Congress, and in our White House. Emotionalism, which is a kind of Freudian sexual displacement, continues to rule the Negro race, and it is continually taken advantage of by oedipal white liberals intent on destroying the country.
If you feel this sort of rhetoric expresses your feelings then I commend you for your honesty.
Would you be offended if someone refered to you as an odipal white conservative?

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAIN... - 5/14/2012 3:03:00 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:



You miss the core elements of everything.


I'm out of tin foil. But I'll be going to the market later.

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAIN... - 5/14/2012 3:05:58 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Stock up on it, so you have plenty of the 'core elements' available.  Cuz you will need crates of the shit to decipher the mystical meaning of the magna carta under the august offices of the legal czar.

 

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAIN... - 5/14/2012 3:07:24 PM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Would you be offended if someone refered to you as an odipal white conservative?


Hell no. I've been called way worse.

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAIN... - 5/14/2012 3:22:18 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

The original intent was to treat negro slaves as less than people. They were even counted that way (what was it, 2/5 of a person?).



Wrong.

Do us all a favor. Please get educated.


So, the issue of the 3/5ths in the constitution was really that the south, feeling sorry for not paying wages to 'free men' as the rest of the stated did, decided to artificially up the populations so they could pay more taxes....maybe we should do that again, that is very sweet of them, innit?

Jesus, I don't ...I just can't.......I mean do people know you can see what they say here? 

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAIN... - 5/14/2012 5:12:29 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Would you be offended if someone refered to you as an odipal white conservative?


Hell no. I've been called way worse.


So from now on you would prefer to be called a motherfucking conservative?

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAIN... - 5/14/2012 5:23:49 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Would you care to tell us how many times the army has been disbanded?


Irrelevant. The fact is, only the Navy is to be provided and maintained perpetually by Constitutional requirement. The fact that the Army has not been disbanded in no way states that it can't.






The constitution provides for the creation of an army and a navy. The house of representatives is the paymaster and the term of the paymaster is 2 years.
Thus the constitutional requirement to fund them every two years.
To change any part of the constitution requires a constitutional ammendment.
Thus it would take a constitutional ammendment to disband the army or the airforce which derives from the army or the navy.
Could congress disband the marine corps? Since it was created by congress in 1798 congress has the authority to disband it at will.
Rather than rely on your own opinion of what the constitution perhaps you might consult someone who teaces history.

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAIN... - 5/14/2012 5:50:28 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

The original intent was to treat negro slaves as less than people. They were even counted that way (what was it, 2/5 of a person?).



Wrong.

Do us all a favor. Please get educated.


So, the issue of the 3/5ths in the constitution was really that the south, feeling sorry for not paying wages to 'free men' as the rest of the stated did, decided to artificially up the populations so they could pay more taxes....maybe we should do that again, that is very sweet of them, innit?

Jesus, I don't ...I just can't.......I mean do people know you can see what they say here? 

The controversy revolved around the number of Representatives a State could send to Congress, the Slave States wishing to count their slaves as One each so to increase their population and their Congressional representation.

Delegates opposed to slavery generally wished to count only the free inhabitants of each state. Delegates supportive of slavery, on the other hand, generally wanted to count slaves in their actual numbers. Since slaves could not vote, slaveholders would thus have the benefit of increased representation in the House and the Electoral College. The final compromise of counting "all other persons" as only three-fifths of their actual numbers reduced the power of the slave states relative to the original southern proposals, but increased it over the northern position.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 5/14/2012 5:51:11 PM >

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAIN... - 5/14/2012 6:28:13 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		And yet this thread is about original intent. The founders cearly beleived in the right, some said responsibility, to overthrow tyranical goverment otherwise they would not have been creating a new government.

A right supressed is still a right.
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Something that happened in 1861 could not affect the INTENT of something written in 1789 comprehension of this fact could not in any rational way be interepeted to mean that I was ignoring The War of Northern Agression merely that as it happened yet the founders clearly could not have taken it into account.


Exactly my point. The Founders could not take into account any conditions of the Republic in the FUTURE. The writings and opinions of the Founders are expressions of their time, not ours. That was then; this is Now. The FUTURE is us. The words of the Founders have limited utility unless they are reinterpreted to today's requirements. That's why we have a Court system that interprets the Constitution as a living document. Otherwise, we are doomed to play "groundhog day" forever in the Eighteenth Century. Truth is relative to time and place. And in our time and place we are ONE nation. Not a confederacy of nation-states. As I said, the matter was settled at Appomattox. The times they are a changing. It is fruitless to debate what was said by Madison, Jefferson, or any of their contemporaries. Fun, but futile because we make our own NOW.


(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAIN... - 5/14/2012 6:31:25 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

The original intent was to treat negro slaves as less than people. They were even counted that way (what was it, 2/5 of a person?).



Wrong.

Do us all a favor. Please get educated.


So, the issue of the 3/5ths in the constitution was really that the south, feeling sorry for not paying wages to 'free men' as the rest of the stated did, decided to artificially up the populations so they could pay more taxes....maybe we should do that again, that is very sweet of them, innit?

Jesus, I don't ...I just can't.......I mean do people know you can see what they say here? 

The controversy revolved around the number of Representatives a State could send to Congress, the Slave States wishing to count their slaves as One each so to increase their population and their Congressional representation.

Delegates opposed to slavery generally wished to count only the free inhabitants of each state. Delegates supportive of slavery, on the other hand, generally wanted to count slaves in their actual numbers. Since slaves could not vote, slaveholders would thus have the benefit of increased representation in the House and the Electoral College. The final compromise of counting "all other persons" as only three-fifths of their actual numbers reduced the power of the slave states relative to the original southern proposals, but increased it over the northern position.

Congradulations vincentML you got it exactly right, the 3/5s clause was to reduce the power of the slaveholders!!!!

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAIN... - 5/14/2012 6:37:09 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		So you think the Constitution was adopted during the McKinnly administration?

The anti Federalist agree to adopt the Constitution on the ground that the bill of rights would be added on asap .

Constitutionin 1787,

Bill of right immeadiately was wrritten and put through the admendment process.

(in reply to Nosathro)
Profile   Post #: 120
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