MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAINST government tyranny (Full Version)

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Fightdirecto -> MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAINST government tyranny (5/14/2012 7:44:35 AM)

Constitutional Myth: The Second Amendment Allows Citizens to Threaten Government

quote:

quote:

When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.

- Thomas Jefferson

Wait a minute, Epps! Who could argue with Jefferson? Well, not me, to be sure. But there's a problem with this quote, as there is with so much of the rhetoric about the Second Amendment.

It's false.

As far as scholars can tell, Jefferson never said it.
Monticello.org, the official website of the Thomas Jefferson Foundation, says, "We have not found any evidence that Thomas Jefferson said or wrote, 'When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny,' or any of its listed variations." The quotation (which has also been misattributed to Samuel Adams, Thomas Paine, and The Federalist), actually was apparently said in 1914 by the eminent person-no-one's-ever-heard-of John Basil Barnhill, during a debate in St. Louis.

As bogus as the quote is the idea that the purpose of the Second Amendment was to create a citizenry able to intimidate the government, and that America would be a better place if government officials were to live in constant fear of gun violence...

...that image of a Mad Max republic lives on in the fringes of the national imagination. It is what authors Joshua Horwitz and Casey Anderson call "the insurrectionist idea," the notion that the Constitution enshrines an individual right to nullify laws an armed citizen objects to. Its most prominent recent expression came from Senate candidate Sharon Angle, who predicted that if she was unable to defeat Democratic Sen. Harry Reid at the ballot box (which she couldn't), citizens would turn to "Second Amendment remedies" - in essence, assassination. Rand Paul also likes to hint that the remedy for rejection of his libertarian policies may be hot lead. Deathandtaxesmag.com quotes him as saying, "Some citizens are holding out hope that the upcoming elections will better things. We'll wait and see. Lots of us believe that maybe that's an unreliable considering that the Fabian progressive socialists have been chipping at our foundations for well over 100 years. Regardless, the founders made sure we had Plan B: the Second Amendment."...

After becoming President, George Washington himself led a national army into Western Pennsylvania to suppress a rebellion against the new federal tax on whiskey. (This is the only time in American history a President has served as Commander-in-Chief in the field.) In a subsequent message to Congress, he showed precious little sympathy for "Second Amendment remedies":

quote:

To yield to the treasonable fury of so small a portion of the United States, would be to violate the fundamental principle of our constitution, which enjoins that the will of the majority shall prevail...Succeeding intelligence has tended to manifest the necessity of what has been done; it being now confessed by those who were not inclined to exaggerate the ill-conduct of the insurgents, that their malevolence was not pointed merely to a particular law; but that a spirit, inimical to all order, has actuated many of the offenders.

- President George Washington


...there is abroad in the land "a spirit, inimical to all order," particularly if that order concerns federally guaranteed environmental protection, economic regulation, or civil rights [Poster's addition: or government health care mandates or legal abortion or Protestant Christian prayer in public schools]. Voices from the far-right are trying to plant a parasitic meme in our Bill of Rights: that America is not a self-government republic, but a dark Hobbesian plane where each "sovereign citizen" chooses what laws to obey, and any census taker or federal law-enforcement agent had better beware.

If, despite the evidence to the contrary, you hold fast to the belief that
quote:

When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.

- John Basil Barnhill

and you believe it would be the "patriotic" thing to do to use your personal guns to attempt to overthrow the government because you disapprove of President Obama's policies (actual or perceived) or the mere fact that he is President at all or you oppose the Affordable Health Care Act or because your interpretation of the U.S. Constitution differs from the SCOTUS or the present administration (Reference: Rand Paul's "Plan B: the Second Amendment") or because your political candidate loses an election (Reference: Sharon Angle's "Second Amendment remedies"),

Do other American citizens have the 2nd Amendment right or even a "Stand Your Ground" right to use their guns to blow you away the moment after you fire your first shot in your self-proclaimed "2nd American Revolution"? (Note I said, "after you fire your first shot" and not pre-emptively.)




papassion -> RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAINST government tyranny (5/14/2012 8:08:14 AM)

It doesn't matter what somebody said or didn't say. The second amendment is there. We all have our interpretation of what a fair and just government is. Not liking a tax or policy would not rise to the level that would require redress by the people in my opinion. Now if the president at the time, would try to disolve the Senate and congress and try to "take over" and change government, that would be cause for redress by the population. Of course this will not happen. Was a possibiity back then.




Nosathro -> RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAINST government tyranny (5/14/2012 8:18:43 AM)

The Second Admendment was written over 200 years ago.  Then many people live in rual area, miles from their nearst neighbor.  At that time there was not a standing army to deal with many problems i.e. Indians (how dare they attack us, we took their land), so each community formed a militia.  Simply put an alarmed went off and every adult male grabbed their musket and off they went.  In order for all this to work everyone had to have a musket so the right to keep weapons was in created.  However, does that apply, we have a police force, each state has a National Guard. 

As you pointed out George Washington, then President, imposed a whiskey tax to help pay for the revoluation.  England was also on him for compsenation the US agreed to pay those still loyal to King George, and were forced to leave and return to England.  This debt was never fully paid.  Another note to the Whiskey rebillion, after the stills and such were destoried and all was said and done, George himself became the US number on maker of whiskey, also a few others of the founding fathers, but George and the others never paid the tax.  George had some alternate motives when he made that speech about the 2nd Admentment.

Since then "gun control" efforts have been used, even the famous fight at the OK Corral was started partly do to a "no guns in town" policy the Earps created.  Also the Earps controled the gambling and vice in Tombstone.  As to modern times, I have carred a firearm and owned a few.  It was part of my job requirement.  When my granddaughter came into my life, I decided to not have firearms and since then I have not owned a gun.  I do believe owning a firearm is legal, under proper conditions, ie a need for training and such.  However, I find no reason to own weapons such as automatice weapons.  As to this "Stand your Ground Law", a 1995 Northeastern study of people using firearms in their self defense showed some 48% used a firearm against an unarmed person.  this was before the "Stand your Ground Law" was in effect, I hate to see what it is now....welcome to Dodge City.




Real0ne -> RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAINST government tyranny (5/14/2012 8:21:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

- John Basil Barnhill
and you believe it would be the "patriotic" thing to do to use your personal guns to attempt to overthrow the government because you disapprove of President Obama's policies (actual or perceived) or the mere fact that he is President at all or you oppose the Affordable Health Care Act or because your interpretation of the U.S. Constitution differs from the SCOTUS or the present administration (Reference: Rand Paul's "Plan B: the Second Amendment") or because your political candidate loses an election (Reference: Sharon Angle's "Second Amendment remedies"),

Do other American citizens have the 2nd Amendment right or even a "Stand Your Ground" right to use their guns to blow you away the moment after you fire your first shot in your self-proclaimed "2nd American Revolution"? (Note I said, "after you fire your first shot" and not pre-emptively.)



that is what they did, they set the example, but then they had solidarity compared to todays patriots that vaporize at the first glance of government.

How about the signing of the magna charta by sword.

Hate to tell ya but for a vet you have some pretty bankrupt opinions about the common law purposes and intent of various elements of the organic law.




So who the hell is the government btw that you seem to think the creators cannot change it or is there a hidden message here that we the people in fact DID NOT create the government and it was in reality created by the large plantation owners by grant of the king and his (in our case) admirals?












vincentML -> RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAINST government tyranny (5/14/2012 8:24:40 AM)

quote:

Do other American citizens have the 2nd Amendment right or even a "Stand Your Ground" right to use their guns to blow you away the moment after you fire your first shot in your self-proclaimed "2nd American Revolution"? (Note I said, "after you fire your first shot" and not pre-emptively.)


This argument was settled via Sumter/Appomattox. You damn sure better have more than one bullet available. Otherwise, your ass will be hanging from a tall oak tree ~ the tree of Treason.

All the modern day "lost cause" soldiers have short memories of American history. More fatal for them is they ignore in their "patriot militia dreams" the might of the Established Forces. Just a joke with their meager collections of puny arms. The Second Amendment is an anacronism in the same league with "post roads."




Real0ne -> RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAINST government tyranny (5/14/2012 8:33:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

The Second Admendment was written over 200 years ago.  Then many people live in rual area, miles from their nearst neighbor.  At that time there was not a standing army to deal with many problems i.e. Indians (how dare they attack us, we took their land), so each community formed a militia.  Simply put an alarmed went off and every adult male grabbed their musket and off they went.  In order for all this to work everyone had to have a musket so the right to keep weapons was in created.  However, does that apply, we have a police force, each state has a National Guard. 

As you pointed out George Washington, then President, imposed a whiskey tax to help pay for the revoluation.  England was also on him for compsenation the US agreed to pay those still loyal to King George, and were forced to leave and return to England.  This debt was never fully paid.  Another note to the Whiskey rebillion, after the stills and such were destoried and all was said and done, George himself became the US number on maker of whiskey, also a few others of the founding fathers, but George and the others never paid the tax.  George had some alternate motives when he made that speech about the 2nd Admentment.

Since then "gun control" efforts have been used, even the famous fight at the OK Corral was started partly do to a "no guns in town" policy the Earps created.  Also the Earps controled the gambling and vice in Tombstone.  As to modern times, I have carred a firearm and owned a few.  It was part of my job requirement.  When my granddaughter came into my life, I decided to not have firearms and since then I have not owned a gun.  I do believe owning a firearm is legal, under proper conditions, ie a need for training and such.  However, I find no reason to own weapons such as automatice weapons.  As to this "Stand your Ground Law", a 1995 Northeastern study of people using firearms in their self defense showed some 48% used a firearm against an unarmed person.  this was before the "Stand your Ground Law" was in effect, I hate to see what it is now....welcome to Dodge City.


we are still supposed to have a militia in each state to this very day.

The militia was supposed to be controlled by civilians but they put it under the president creating an even larger standing army.

we have a standing army in the US with numerous bases





BamaD -> RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAINST government tyranny (5/14/2012 8:36:46 AM)

It is obvious that most of the people on this thread have two problems.
One they have never read the Federalist papers in which Madison makes it crystle clear that protection from the government was indeed the primary purpose of the second admendment.
Two fhe Civil War has no bearing on the intent of somthing written 70 years earlier.

The thread is allegedly about original intent not about feasibility of a current revolt.
You might want to check the history section of politicalchat.org battle of Athens (Tenn)




Musicmystery -> RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAINST government tyranny (5/14/2012 8:47:13 AM)

Madison was a staunch Federalist.

What sane founder would sow the seeds of armed rebellion? It's a cowboy myth resurrected for the Rambo age.





BamaD -> RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAINST government tyranny (5/14/2012 8:47:21 AM)

What if pro presidential groups took over polling places and only allowed people to vote "the right way"
Supose that the president then declared martial law and set aside all election results?
What if he loses there are rights and he declares martial law "Till we get things in order"

These are the kinds of conditions that the 2nd was wrritten to address.

And before any of you even start with the name calling and paranoia declarations the above was a hypothesis not a prediction.

There is a difference between the intent to protect people from tyrannical rule and disagreeing with policy.




BamaD -> RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAINST government tyranny (5/14/2012 8:49:54 AM)

Read Federalist paper #46 then you can come back and apologize




Real0ne -> RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAINST government tyranny (5/14/2012 8:49:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: papassion

It doesn't matter what somebody said or didn't say. The second amendment is there. We all have our interpretation of what a fair and just government is. Not liking a tax or policy would not rise to the level that would require redress by the people in my opinion. Now if the president at the time, would try to disolve the Senate and congress and try to "take over" and change government, that would be cause for redress by the population. Of course this will not happen. Was a possibiity back then.




taxes can cripple a community.

everything you pay to the gub is a tax.

they charge you for looking up records but expect you to supply them with records free of charge.

all licenses are a form of tax, and for what? To get around common law and exchange right for privilege and immunity from the wrong doing that you just did.




latest militia news and how the land of the free views it.


This is a nearly 4000 strong militia that if they truly were operating as the gubafia portrays them could have caused some serious havoc, but that is not their purpose, look how the gubafia troughers react when their lucrative busniess is threatened.

quote:



ANCHORAGE, Alaska (AP) — Three Fairbanks-area militia members were portrayed by federal prosecutors Tuesday as dangerous conspirators who amassed a cache of weapons and plotted to murder government officials, while defense attorneys said their clients were ensnared by an overreaching government.


Attorneys gave opening statements in the federal trial of Schaeffer Cox, of Fairbanks, Coleman Barney, of North Pole, and Lonnie Vernon, of Salcha. The men have been in jail since being arrested 14 months ago in combined state and federal raids.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Yvonne Lamoureux said fully automatic machine guns, silencers and grenades were part of the men's weapons cache, most of it in a trailer owned by Barney, 37. She also said the murder conspiracies were recorded.

The alleged plot was not just people sitting around discussing their views and complaining, assistant Lamoureux told the U.S. District Court jury in Anchorage after detailing weapons seized when the men were arrested in March 2011.

"We wouldn't be here today if that was the case," she said, adding that the prosecution plans to introduce 700 exhibits and call 70 witnesses, including FBI agents and an FBI informant, Gerald Olson, who recorded meetings after infiltrating the Alaska Peacemakers Militia led by Cox. With his involvement, Olson avoided his own jail time in an unrelated theft case.

Nelson Traverso, the attorney for Cox, said his client would never plot to murder anyone.

However, Traverso acknowledged that Cox has a tendency to shoot his mouth off in championing a fight for civil liberties. Traverso described his client as a father of two, an avid outdoorsman, a young idealist.

"Yet, youth has its excesses," he said of the 28-year-old Cox. "Occasionally, he displays a big mouth to make a point."

Cox is a founder of the Second Amendment Task Force, a gun rights group that formed out of concerns about an economic and government failure. Cox and others in his circle are a group of "devout Christians" who wanted to defend their families against mobs and government in case of a collapse. Traverso noted that informant Olson was the one who encouraged the purchase of munitions and pushed for violence. (whoda thhunk it? the irony)

Cox and his alleged cohorts are charged with conspiring to murder law enforcement agents, as well as weapons charges. Vernon, 56, is charged in a separate case with his wife, Karen Vernon, with plotting to murder the chief federal judge in Alaska, Robert Beistline, over his rulings in a tax case.

Barney's attorney, Tim Dooley, also said the government was overreaching in charges against his client, whom he described as a gun enthusiast and a Mormon active in his church. Items found in Barney's trailer weren't his and the government would have to prove he exercised control over the contents, Dooley said.

Vernon's public defender, M.J. Haden, said the case was about Cox and that her client's greatest wrong is his "very poor taste" in associates. She called Vernon a hard-working truck driver and a blowhard who tends to exaggerate to get attention.

Last October, the state dismissed charges against Cox, Barney and Lonnie and Karen Vernon. At the time, prosecutors said the decision to dismiss state murder conspiracy and other charges was prompted by a Superior Court judge's ruling to suppress all electronic evidence in the case. According to the ruling, audio and video recordings made during a six-month FBI investigation into Cox and his militia are not admissible because they were made without a search warrant, and therefore violate the Alaska Constitution. The FBI has wider authority to obtain warrants.

The fifth defendant in the state case, Michael Anderson, was not charged in the federal case. He was granted immunity and will testify in the federal trial. Lamoureux said Anderson will testify about his work compiling a "hit list."

Authorities have said Cox was an advocate of the "241" retaliation plan, which stood for "two-for-one" — killing or kidnapping two officials for every member of his group who was killed or arrested.

The alleged plot arose after Cox was charged with misdemeanor weapons misconduct. He represented himself at a pretrial hearing where he denied that the Alaska court system was a legitimate judiciary. Cox said he would not attend another hearing until the court system explained its authority over him.

A warrant was issued for his arrest when he failed to appear for trial in that case in February.

http://www.necn.com/05/08/12/Trial-starts-for-Fairbanks-area-militia-/landing_nation.html?&apID=6ca4f4337624410eb8f564faee42a019



Agencies are protected sovereign monopolies with sovereign granted territories to operate!

They infiltrate these groups and set them up, smear them in public and the public being not to brite always side with authorities right or wrong.







Musicmystery -> RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAINST government tyranny (5/14/2012 8:52:04 AM)

What nonsense. You're going to need hard prove of that intent, not vague referenced cripped here and there. If that was the purpose, there should be a wealth of evidence.

If there were a military coup in this country, it would be over before you woke up and had time to grab your gun.





Musicmystery -> RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAINST government tyranny (5/14/2012 8:54:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Read Federalist paper #46 then you can come back and apologize


Nonsense. Learn to read, Sparky. Federalist #46 is about the balance of power between the States and the Federal government.




Real0ne -> RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAINST government tyranny (5/14/2012 8:59:07 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

What nonsense. You're going to need hard prove of that intent, not vague referenced cripped here and there. If that was the purpose, there should be a wealth of evidence.

If there were a military coup in this country, it would be over before you woke up and had time to grab your gun.




revolutionary war




BamaD -> RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAINST government tyranny (5/14/2012 8:59:23 AM)

You didn'tread the whole thing bozo
Madison states toward the end that the reason that the US, as oppossed to Europe would never have tryanny because of the individual right to own firearms.

Though it is against your nature try to be civil
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Read Federalist paper #46 then you can come back and apologize


Nonsense. Learn to read, Sparky. Federalist #46 is about the balance of power between the States and the Federal government.





Musicmystery -> RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAINST government tyranny (5/14/2012 9:02:30 AM)

quote:

You didn'tread the whole thing bozo


And STiLL you can't provide relevant support.

Here's the whole thing. It's. about. States. and. the. Federal. government.

'Cuz, see, that's what Federalism is about. Get a non-NRA buddy to 'splain it to you.

The Federalist No. 46
The Influence of the State and Federal Governments Compared
New York Packet
Tuesday, January 29, 1788
[James Madison]
To the People of the State of New York:

RESUMING the subject of the last paper, I proceed to inquire whether the federal government or the State governments will have the advantage with regard to the predilection and support of the people. Notwithstanding the different modes in which they are appointed, we must consider both of them as substantially dependent on the great body of the citizens of the United States. I assume this position here as it respects the first, reserving the proofs for another place. The federal and State governments are in fact but different agents and trustees of the people, constituted with different powers, and designed for different purposes. The adversaries of the Constitution seem to have lost sight of the people altogether in their reasonings on this subject; and to have viewed these different establishments, not only as mutual rivals and enemies, but as uncontrolled by any common superior in their efforts to usurp the authorities of each other. These gentlemen must here be reminded of their error. They must be told that the ultimate authority, wherever the derivative may be found, resides in the people alone, and that it will not depend merely on the comparative ambition or address of the different governments, whether either, or which of them, will be able to enlarge its sphere of jurisdiction at the expense of the other. Truth, no less than decency, requires that the event in every case should be supposed to depend on the sentiments and sanction of their common constituents.

Many considerations, besides those suggested on a former occasion, seem to place it beyond doubt that the first and most natural attachment of the people will be to the governments of their respective States. Into the administration of these a greater number of individuals will expect to rise. From the gift of these a greater number of offices and emoluments will flow. By the superintending care of these, all the more domestic and personal interests of the people will be regulated and provided for. With the affairs of these, the people will be more familiarly and minutely conversant. And with the members of these, will a greater proportion of the people have the ties of personal acquaintance and friendship, and of family and party attachments; on the side of these, therefore, the popular bias may well be expected most strongly to incline.

Experience speaks the same language in this case. The federal administration, though hitherto very defective in comparison with what may be hoped under a better system, had, during the war, and particularly whilst the independent fund of paper emissions was in credit, an activity and importance as great as it can well have in any future circumstances whatever. It was engaged, too, in a course of measures which had for their object the protection of everything that was dear, and the acquisition of everything that could be desirable to the people at large. It was, nevertheless, invariably found, after the transient enthusiasm for the early Congresses was over, that the attention and attachment of the people were turned anew to their own particular governments; that the federal council was at no time the idol of popular favor; and that opposition to proposed enlargements of its powers and importance was the side usually taken by the men who wished to build their political consequence on the prepossessions of their fellow-citizens.

If, therefore, as has been elsewhere remarked, the people should in future become more partial to the federal than to the State governments, the change can only result from such manifest and irresistible proofs of a better administration, as will overcome all their antecedent propensities. And in that case, the people ought not surely to be precluded from giving most of their confidence where they may discover it to be most due; but even in that case the State governments could have little to apprehend, because it is only within a certain sphere that the federal power can, in the nature of things, be advantageously administered.

The remaining points on which I propose to compare the federal and State governments, are the disposition and the faculty they may respectively possess, to resist and frustrate the measures of each other.

It has been already proved that the members of the federal will be more dependent on the members of the State governments, than the latter will be on the former. It has appeared also, that the prepossessions of the people, on whom both will depend, will be more on the side of the State governments, than of the federal government. So far as the disposition of each towards the other may be influenced by these causes, the State governments must clearly have the advantage. But in a distinct and very important point of view, the advantage will lie on the same side. The prepossessions, which the members themselves will carry into the federal government, will generally be favorable to the States; whilst it will rarely happen, that the members of the State governments will carry into the public councils a bias in favor of the general government. A local spirit will infallibly prevail much more in the members of Congress, than a national spirit will prevail in the legislatures of the particular States. Every one knows that a great proportion of the errors committed by the State legislatures proceeds from the disposition of the members to sacrifice the comprehensive and permanent interest of the State, to the particular and separate views of the counties or districts in which they reside. And if they do not sufficiently enlarge their policy to embrace the collective welfare of their particular State, how can it be imagined that they will make the aggregate prosperity of the Union, and the dignity and respectability of its government, the objects of their affections and consultations? For the same reason that the members of the State legislatures will be unlikely to attach themselves sufficiently to national objects, the members of the federal legislature will be likely to attach themselves too much to local objects. The States will be to the latter what counties and towns are to the former. Measures will too often be decided according to their probable effect, not on the national prosperity and happiness, but on the prejudices, interests, and pursuits of the governments and people of the individual States. What is the spirit that has in general characterized the proceedings of Congress? A perusal of their journals, as well as the candid acknowledgments of such as have had a seat in that assembly, will inform us, that the members have but too frequently displayed the character, rather of partisans of their respective States, than of impartial guardians of a common interest; that where on one occasion improper sacrifices have been made of local considerations, to the aggrandizement of the federal government, the great interests of the nation have suffered on a hundred, from an undue attention to the local prejudices, interests, and views of the particular States. I mean not by these reflections to insinuate, that the new federal government will not embrace a more enlarged plan of policy than the existing government may have pursued; much less, that its views will be as confined as those of the State legislatures; but only that it will partake sufficiently of the spirit of both, to be disinclined to invade the rights of the individual States, or the preorgatives of their governments. The motives on the part of the State governments, to augment their prerogatives by defalcations from the federal government, will be overruled by no reciprocal predispositions in the members.

Were it admitted, however, that the Federal government may feel an equal disposition with the State governments to extend its power beyond the due limits, the latter would still have the advantage in the means of defeating such encroachments. If an act of a particular State, though unfriendly to the national government, be generally popular in that State and should not too grossly violate the oaths of the State officers, it is executed immediately and, of course, by means on the spot and depending on the State alone. The opposition of the federal government, or the interposition of federal officers, would but inflame the zeal of all parties on the side of the State, and the evil could not be prevented or repaired, if at all, without the employment of means which must always be resorted to with reluctance and difficulty. On the other hand, should an unwarrantable measure of the federal government be unpopular in particular States, which would seldom fail to be the case, or even a warrantable measure be so, which may sometimes be the case, the means of opposition to it are powerful and at hand. The disquietude of the people; their repugnance and, perhaps, refusal to co-operate with the officers of the Union; the frowns of the executive magistracy of the State; the embarrassments created by legislative devices, which would often be added on such occasions, would oppose, in any State, difficulties not to be despised; would form, in a large State, very serious impediments; and where the sentiments of several adjoining States happened to be in unison, would present obstructions which the federal government would hardly be willing to encounter.

But ambitious encroachments of the federal government, on the authority of the State governments, would not excite the opposition of a single State, or of a few States only. They would be signals of general alarm. Every government would espouse the common cause. A correspondence would be opened. Plans of resistance would be concerted. One spirit would animate and conduct the whole. The same combinations, in short, would result from an apprehension of the federal, as was produced by the dread of a foreign, yoke; and unless the projected innovations should be voluntarily renounced, the same appeal to a trial of force would be made in the one case as was made in the other. But what degree of madness could ever drive the federal government to such an extremity. In the contest with Great Britain, one part of the empire was employed against the other. The more numerous part invaded the rights of the less numerous part. The attempt was unjust and unwise; but it was not in speculation absolutely chimerical. But what would be the contest in the case we are supposing? Who would be the parties? A few representatives of the people would be opposed to the people themselves; or rather one set of representatives would be contending against thirteen sets of representatives, with the whole body of their common constituents on the side of the latter.

The only refuge left for those who prophesy the downfall of the State governments is the visionary supposition that the federal government may previously accumulate a military force for the projects of ambition. The reasonings contained in these papers must have been employed to little purpose indeed, if it could be necessary now to disprove the reality of this danger. That the people and the States should, for a sufficient period of time, elect an uninterupted succession of men ready to betray both; that the traitors should, throughout this period, uniformly and systematically pursue some fixed plan for the extension of the military establishment; that the governments and the people of the States should silently and patiently behold the gathering storm, and continue to supply the materials, until it should be prepared to burst on their own heads, must appear to every one more like the incoherent dreams of a delirious jealousy, or the misjudged exaggerations of a counterfeit zeal, than like the sober apprehensions of genuine patriotism. Extravagant as the supposition is, let it however be made. Let a regular army, fully equal to the resources of the country, be formed; and let it be entirely at the devotion of the federal government; still it would not be going too far to say, that the State governments, with the people on their side, would be able to repel the danger. The highest number to which, according to the best computation, a standing army can be carried in any country, does not exceed one hundredth part of the whole number of souls; or one twenty-fifth part of the number able to bear arms. This proportion would not yield, in the United States, an army of more than twenty-five or thirty thousand men. To these would be opposed a militia amounting to near half a million of citizens with arms in their hands, officered by men chosen from among themselves, fighting for their common liberties, and united and conducted by governments possessing their affections and confidence. It may well be doubted, whether a militia thus circumstanced could ever be conquered by such a proportion of regular troops. Those who are best acquainted with the last successful resistance of this country against the British arms, will be most inclined to deny the possibility of it. Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of. Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms. And it is not certain, that with this aid alone they would not be able to shake off their yokes. But were the people to possess the additional advantages of local governments chosen by themselves, who could collect the national will and direct the national force, and of officers appointed out of the militia, by these governments, and attached both to them and to the militia, it may be affirmed with the greatest assurance, that the throne of every tyranny in Europe would be speedily overturned in spite of the legions which surround it. Let us not insult the free and gallant citizens of America with the suspicion, that they would be less able to defend the rights of which they would be in actual possession, than the debased subjects of arbitrary power would be to rescue theirs from the hands of their oppressors. Let us rather no longer insult them with the supposition that they can ever reduce themselves to the necessity of making the experiment, by a blind and tame submission to the long train of insidious measures which must precede and produce it.

The argument under the present head may be put into a very concise form, which appears altogether conclusive. Either the mode in which the federal government is to be constructed will render it sufficiently dependent on the people, or it will not. On the first supposition, it will be restrained by that dependence from forming schemes obnoxious to their constituents. On the other supposition, it will not possess the confidence of the people, and its schemes of usurpation will be easily defeated by the State governments, who will be supported by the people.

On summing up the considerations stated in this and the last paper, they seem to amount to the most convincing evidence, that the powers proposed to be lodged in the federal government are as little formidable to those reserved to the individual States, as they are indispensably necessary to accomplish the purposes of the Union; and that all those alarms which have been sounded, of a meditated and consequential annihilation of the State governments, must, on the most favorable interpretation, be ascribed to the chimerical fears of the authors of them.

PUBLIUS




vincentML -> RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAINST government tyranny (5/14/2012 9:09:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

It is obvious that most of the people on this thread have two problems.
One they have never read the Federalist papers in which Madison makes it crystle clear that protection from the government was indeed the primary purpose of the second admendment.
Two fhe Civil War has no bearing on the intent of somthing written 70 years earlier.

The thread is allegedly about original intent not about feasibility of a current revolt.
You might want to check the history section of politicalchat.org battle of Athens (Tenn)


The Federalist Papers were written as arguments to favor acceptance of the proposed new Constitution. The amendment process acknowledges that the Constitution was not carved in stone and that times change. The Civil War ~ the war of treason and sedition ~ had everything to do with the document of Union written 70 years earlier despite your facile dismissal of the greatest orgy of bloodshed in the Nation's history. Prior to that President Jackson put down the attempt of Nullification by South Carolina and President Washington put down the Whiskey Rebellion in Pennsylvania. The deeds of history speak louder than the papers it is written upon.




SternSkipper -> RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAINST government tyranny (5/14/2012 10:09:21 AM)

quote:

What if pro presidential groups took over polling places and only allowed people to vote "the right way"
Supose that the president then declared martial law and set aside all election results?
What if he loses there are rights and he declares martial law "Till we get things in order"


Too bad nobody recognized a parallel behavior on the part of the Governor of Florida on election day in the year 2000.




truckinslave -> RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAINST government tyranny (5/14/2012 10:11:31 AM)

quote:

As to this "Stand your Ground Law", a 1995 Northeastern study of people using firearms in their self defense showed some 48% used a firearm against an unarmed person.


Who cares?
My mother is 82, lives alone, and is armed.
Some crackhead or thugboy break in on her, neither he, nor I, nor the local police, nor the local courts, will give a fuck what he had in his hands, or didn't have in his hands, or how many times she shot him.

Unsless your "study" accounts for such... what the hell good is it?




truckinslave -> RE: MYTH: 2nd Amendment written to protect people AGAINST government tyranny (5/14/2012 10:13:02 AM)

quote:

Just a joke with their meager collections of puny arms.


Ever heard of Afghanistan?




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