RE: Why Atheism Scares People

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fucktoyprincess -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/17/2012 1:00:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: Fundamentally, peaceful co-existence requires Christianity and Islam (and any other dogmatic religion) to accept that their path is not the only path, and to accept that they are NOT, in fact, responsible for saving other people's souls. Pfffft!!!! Christianity and Islam have both been imperialistic religious powers who lived and conquered by the sword following the examples of Constantine and Mohammad. Why would anything change now? History has not ended. It is delusional to dismiss their savage history with a focus upon their pious pronouncements. Fakery! I will grant people their "delusion" if they will leave me be. I also think that if people really want to, they can denounce their history, adjust the rules, and move forward. What is disheartening is that I can't think of a single Christian church or Muslim spiritual leader that takes that stance. They want to keep the whole history, keep all of the scripture (even when contradictory) and somehow move forward. We can co-exist if co-existence becomes the priority for the moderates. But even the moderates seem unwilling to criticize any aspect of their faith's history or practice. Again, I think the "doubt" issue is central here.

fucktoyprincess -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/17/2012 1:07:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle I'm afraid I see no way of resolving this issue, until believers begin to admit the possibility that they could be mistaken in their beliefs. Once believers come to that realisation, it becomes more difficult for them to be dogmatic about their beliefs. But one man's dogma is another man's Faith. You don't go around entertaining the idea that you could be mistaken in your Faith - it's a contradiction in terms, isn't it? Yup. That's why I feel so pessimistic about this particular issue. I wish it was otherwise. I was hoping someone on this thread would articulate something to pull me out of this pessimism, but it looks like that won't happen. And I see others share my pessimism. [:(] Sorry, there is very little cause for optimism on this front. Look at what happened to the so called "New Atheists." A movement that if it had been in support of any other religious minority would have been hailed as a civil rights movement was roundly condemned by most everyone, including a lot of self hating atheists, and Dawkins, Dennet, Harris, Hitchens and Myers were basically shouted down and condemned for simply saying we want the same respect other groups receive. Here is what really distinguishes the atheists. We have the ability to carry on in our day-to-day lives knowing there isn't much room for optimism. [:D]

LadyPact -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/17/2012 3:03:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle re: The OP I'm afraid I see no way of resolving this issue, until believers begin to admit the possibility that they could be mistaken in their beliefs. Once believers come to that realisation, it becomes more difficult for them to be dogmatic about their beliefs. What makes you think that some haven't? If we're still just talking about if there is a God or not, I figure, in the end, it will work out one of two ways. I was either right to have believed in one or not. If I was right, I'll have to deal with the mistakes that I made in life when I get there. If I was wrong, I didn't lose anything.

vincentML -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/17/2012 3:23:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle re: The OP I'm afraid I see no way of resolving this issue, until believers begin to admit the possibility that they could be mistaken in their beliefs. Once believers come to that realisation, it becomes more difficult for them to be dogmatic about their beliefs. What makes you think that some haven't? If we're still just talking about if there is a God or not, I figure, in the end, it will work out one of two ways. I was either right to have believed in one or not. If I was right, I'll have to deal with the mistakes that I made in life when I get there. If I was wrong, I didn't lose anything. Yeh, but in the meantime there are real world, potent political ramafications for Women's Health Rights.

whatisthewhat -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/17/2012 3:30:04 PM)
I am not an atheist. However, as a woman, I would be foolish to follow just about any religion, since the vast majority fill the primary function of propping up the patriarchy.

hardcybermaster -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/17/2012 3:37:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle re: The OP I'm afraid I see no way of resolving this issue, until believers begin to admit the possibility that they could be mistaken in their beliefs. Once believers come to that realisation, it becomes more difficult for them to be dogmatic about their beliefs. What makes you think that some haven't? If we're still just talking about if there is a God or not, I figure, in the end, it will work out one of two ways. I was either right to have believed in one or not. If I was right, I'll have to deal with the mistakes that I made in life when I get there. If I was wrong, I didn't lose anything. doesn't every major religion in the world treat women as secong class citizens? How do you square that with your dominance? Surely God is the only one allowed to capitalise Himself.....He doesn't exist, but if He does He is gonna have words with you,lol

thishereboi -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/17/2012 3:46:51 PM)
quote: When faith based friends have found out I was an atheist, they've been shocked. As if it just couldnt be that such a person as myself wouldn't believe in god. "But you're very spiritual", they say. And I suppose that's true, if irrelevant. I certainly have a worldview, and a strong sense of honour and 'rightness'. I have studied many religions, and respect many paths. I just don't think that some flaming skyfather is watching me, much less that it cares one whit what I do or don't do. I'm not a bit shocked. But I learned a long time ago that being religious does not automatically make you a good person anymore than being an athiest makes you bad. I try to judge a person by their actions and not their belief system or lack of one.

vincentML -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/17/2012 3:59:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi quote: When faith based friends have found out I was an atheist, they've been shocked. As if it just couldnt be that such a person as myself wouldn't believe in god. "But you're very spiritual", they say. And I suppose that's true, if irrelevant. I certainly have a worldview, and a strong sense of honour and 'rightness'. I have studied many religions, and respect many paths. I just don't think that some flaming skyfather is watching me, much less that it cares one whit what I do or don't do. I'm not a bit shocked. But I learned a long time ago that being religious does not automatically make you a good person anymore than being an athiest makes you bad. I try to judge a person by their actions and not their belief system or lack of one. I'm sure there are many Believers who do as you do. Kudos to you. Unfortunately, there is a rather large, loud hardcore religious leadership who overshout your noble sentiments.

fucktoyprincess -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/17/2012 4:35:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle re: The OP I'm afraid I see no way of resolving this issue, until believers begin to admit the possibility that they could be mistaken in their beliefs. Once believers come to that realisation, it becomes more difficult for them to be dogmatic about their beliefs. What makes you think that some haven't? If we're still just talking about if there is a God or not, I figure, in the end, it will work out one of two ways. I was either right to have believed in one or not. If I was right, I'll have to deal with the mistakes that I made in life when I get there. If I was wrong, I didn't lose anything. Tweakabelle's comment was actually in response to my concern that the dogma and practices of certain religions stand in the way of peaceful co-existence. It was not actually a comment on whether or not god exists. She was not referring to the belief in god, but to other practices that we had been discussing. I think each of us is free to make our own determination of whether we believe or not. I am only asking for peaceful co-existence. I think your approach is equally valid, and as long as we don't impose on the other, we are each free to embrace our own approach however it suits us.

LadyPact -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/17/2012 5:03:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hardcybermaster doesn't every major religion in the world treat women as secong class citizens? How do you square that with your dominance? I actually don't blame God for the way men have interpreted the instructions that they received. Two thousand years ago, the laws were already in place to treat women differently as far as not having the same standing as men. Back then, men were the leaders of the family and there wasn't going to be some big revolution to change that, considering the times. Human beings weren't ready for it, along with a lot of the other references made that people weren't ready for. They didn't have the same basis of knowledge. The same as the reason that the bible is loaded with metaphors. In the last couple of milenia, we've learned that there are some women who are more competent at being the leaders of a family, household, a relationship, a government, or a country. Something that was basically unheard of at the time. Plus, it's worth considering that God never said He was the only authority. Just that He was the final one. quote: Surely God is the only one allowed to capitalise Himself.....He doesn't exist, but if He does He is gonna have words with you,lol Technically, God didn't capitalize Himself at all. Even the passages of the bible are very specific of being the word of God, but not that it was written directly. As for the rest, considering that I happen to be sadistic, as well as poly, I'm laying odds that a few capitals on a message board won't have the top spot in the things that will be up for discussion. [8D]

dcnovice -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/17/2012 8:06:46 PM)
quote: You don't go around entertaining the idea that you could be mistaken in your Faith It may be the particular communities I've been drawn to, but the church folk I know wrestle with that all the time. ETA: One of the few times (I think there are three) in the Gospels where Jesus' words were preserved in the original language was his cry from the cross, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" That's actually a quote from Psalm 22. To take a more contemporary example, Mother Teresa's correspondence, published a few years ago, revealed that she endured darkness and doubt for years at a stretch.

Kirata -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/17/2012 8:26:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: You don't go around entertaining the idea that you could be mistaken in your Faith It may be the particular communities I've been drawn to, but the church folk I know wrestle with that all the time. I think they are inseparable. In my opinion, all of one with none of the other (either way) bespeaks a dangerous state of mind. Many Christians fall into the trap of assuming that faith and doubt are mutually exclusive. They imagine that a real believer would never question the grounds for his faith and if one experiences doubt, his faith isn’t true... both assumptions are incorrect. ~William Lane Craig John Ortberg wrote a book on the subject: "Faith & Doubt." And leaving the loony fringe aside, I think Christians understand the position of the man in Mark: Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth. And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief. ~Mark 9:23-24 K.

dcnovice -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/17/2012 8:34:41 PM)
Good quotes, Kirata. Thanks! Then there's Doubting Thomas, one of my personal favorites in all of Scripture. I like to think of him as the patron saint of science.

Karmastic -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/17/2012 8:42:52 PM)
sorry this thread is way too long to read. to OP, i love you. that was fucking brilliant. 100% agree even tho i wouldn't call myself an atheist. dont forget the ordering & controlling of society and tax collections. organized religion has been great at doing that

tweakabelle -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/17/2012 8:43:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle I'm afraid I see no way of resolving this issue, until believers begin to admit the possibility that they could be mistaken in their beliefs. Once believers come to that realisation, it becomes more difficult for them to be dogmatic about their beliefs. But one man's dogma is another man's Faith. You don't go around entertaining the idea that you could be mistaken in your Faith - it's a contradiction in terms, isn't it? Yup. That's why I feel so pessimistic about this particular issue. I wish it was otherwise. I was hoping someone on this thread would articulate something to pull me out of this pessimism, but it looks like that won't happen. And I see others share my pessimism. [:(] I'd hate to be responsible for generating some pessimism so here's a more optimistic thought: As far as I can see, the issue of peaceful co-existence between religious extremists and non-believers is a serious problem in only 2 Western countries - the US and Israel. European countries such as Spain Italy France or Ireland, all of South America and Australia are all nominally Christian but the direct influence of religion on public discourse is, by and large, minimal. We do have a Religious Right here but by and large, it is tolerated in a kind of bemused way and then ignored. Australians are as apathetic about religion as they are about anything else - and we are world leaders in political apathy. As Israel has a pretty unique set of circumstances, we might then ask: What is it that sets some streams of US Christianity apart? Why are these particular sects are so intolerant? Why does religion play such a disproportionate role in public affairs in the US? Why is it that the 'culture wars' have been largely settled in other countries but not so in the US?

Arturas -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/17/2012 8:49:22 PM)
quote: As an atheist, I have to contend with the sad and depressing fact that, well, s**t just happens. And there is no divine explanation. And the only way to prevent bad things from either happening at all, or to minimize the pain from bad things, is to personally take responsibility to try to prevent bad things from happening or to minimize the pain from bad things - not just for oneself, or one's family, but for other people, too. How? Through one's politics, one's charitable giving (money and time), through one's ideas. The one thing I cannot do is simply say, "well this is god's way." So atheism is scary to most people because it means they have to confront the fact that they are, in fact, responsible for the homeless guy sleeping on the sidewalk at night. Thanks, this was a real insight into an Atheist for me, a Christian. Let me say first that I am not afraid of atheists nor do I think anything is wrong with you. Nor do I know of any Christians who feel anything is wrong with atheists. I and other Christians I know do not use God to escape personal responsibility or leave things in God's hand or say bad things must happen because it is "God's way". Instead, Christians know we are earthly servants of our Creator, our Master if you will, who uses us and depends on us to "do things" to help the homeless man and be responsible for making things better while not waiting for some "divine intervention". This "doing" rather than waiting for God to do something is called "Good Works" and is the physical manifistation of the spiritual. As far as depending on God, we depend on the Most High for guidance and resources and also for Divine Intervention when we are powerless to do something on our own, after trying and we ask Him for His help and He then delivers in "God's Way". This is the true meaning of the phrase "God's Way" that you used in your OP. Thank you again for your insight into the Atheist and this opportunity to provide you insight into the Christian. Well wishes.

dcnovice -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/17/2012 9:12:48 PM)
quote: I also think that if people really want to, they can denounce their history, adjust the rules, and move forward. What is disheartening is that I can't think of a single Christian church or Muslim spiritual leader that takes that stance. They want to keep the whole history, keep all of the scripture (even when contradictory) and somehow move forward. We can co-exist if co-existence becomes the priority for the moderates. But even the moderates seem unwilling to criticize any aspect of their faith's history or practice. A few quick thoughts from a brain that should really be n bed after a 12-hour workday: -- Martin Luther's willingness to criticize Catholic history and practice launched the Protestant Reformation in which no small number of people set out on new spiritual paths (and, of course, promptly made mistakes of their own). -- John Shelby Spong, an Episcopal bishop, is a fierce critic of what he sees as the failings of Christianity and its institutions. Among his many books are Rescuing the Bible From Fundamentalism and The Sins of Scripture. -- In The Dream of God, my fellow Washingtonian Verna Dozier, whom I had the good fortune to hear a few times, is unsparing about the flaws of the institutional church and argues that one of the worst things ever to happen to Christianity was becoming the religion of the Roman Empire. -- I don't know anyone today who defends the Inquisition. Do you? (Speaking of which, how 'bout a deal: You don't hang the theist Torquemada (who killed thousands) on my neck, and I won't hang the atheist Mao (who killed millions) on yours?) -- Far from arguing that we should "keep all of the scripture" (at least in terms of according it all the same weight), the scholars of the Jesus Seminar devoted considerable effort to assessing which words attributed to Jesus were actually uttered by him. Their masterwork, The Five Gospels (they included Thomas), uses four different colors to code the credibility, as the Seminar scholars saw it, of any words put into Jesus' mouth. -- Any number of Catholics were sainted for work that included holding the church to higher standards. Francis of Assisi, Teresa of Avila, and Catherine of Siena come to mind. -- Currently on display at the National Museum of American History, is Thomas Jefferson's Bible--created by literally cutting and pasting the passages he found believable and discarding the rest.

tweakabelle -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/18/2012 12:25:40 AM)
dcnovice, I don't see anyone here disputing that there are moderate and self critical traditions within Christianity. I doubt if anyone has a problem co-existing with these traditions. The problems all originate in the extreme, self righteous uncritical tradition that allies itself with the extreme political Right. I'd imagine these people are an embarrassment for the more thoughtful traditions I've listed above. So I don't see any particular reason why the more moderate thoughtful traditions and non-believers can't make common cause around the principle of "Live and let live". From what I can see, both groups have a lot to fear from the theocrats

vincentML -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/18/2012 6:50:08 AM)
quote: -- Martin Luther's willingness to criticize Catholic history and practice launched the Protestant Reformation in which no small number of people set out on new spiritual paths (and, of course, promptly made mistakes of their own). Martin Luther . . . . puhleezzzz!!! Hardly a paragon of tolerance and moderation. On the Jews and Their Lies (German: Von den Jüden und jren Lügen; in modern spelling Von den Juden und ihren Lügen) is a 65,000-word antisemitic treatise written in 1543 by the German Reformation leader Martin Luther. In the treatise, Luther describes Jews as a "base, whoring people, that is, no people of God, and their boast of lineage, circumcision, and law must be accounted as filth."[1] Luther wrote that they are "full of the devil's feces ... which they wallow in like swine,"[2] and the synagogue is an "incorrigible whore and an evil slut".[3] In the first ten sections of the treatise, Luther expounds, at considerable length, upon his views concerning Jews and Judaism and how these compare against Christians and Christianity. Following this exposition, Section XI of the treatise advises Christians to carry out seven remedial actions. These are 1.for Jewish synagogues and schools to be burned to the ground, and the remnants buried out of sight; 2.for houses owned by Jews to be likewise razed, and the owners made to live in agricultural outbuildings; 3.for their religious writings to be taken away; 4.for rabbis to be forbidden to preach, and to be executed if they do; 5.for safe conduct on the roads to be abolished for Jews; 6.for usury to be prohibited, and for all silver and gold to be removed and "put aside for safekeeping"; and 7.for the Jewish population to be put to work as agricultural slave labor.[4] SOURCE quote: -- Currently on display at the National Museum of American History, is Thomas Jefferson's Bible--created by literally cutting and pasting the passages he found believable and discarding the rest. a one page display ????[8\|]

MileHighM -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/18/2012 2:26:53 PM)
I don't know if this has ever been stated on the boards, but I am going to say it now. Atheists, despite their insistence are people of faith! They may not be a religion, but it wouldn't be impossible! Oh Science! as they said in South Park. They are people of faith for the simple reason that the existence of God/gods/spirits/etc cannot be proven nor disproven, hence you have faith that they don't exist! Once you become to fanboy/nerd about your beliefs and you find a group of equally nerdy believers, you will create an association, then blah, then a blah and eventually a religion.... Just because you haven't managed to create your own dogmatic sputum, doesn't give you the right to prop up your beliefs and attack others' dogmatic sputum. Keep your faith out of the argument! Truth is almost all wars and oppression is based on money not God. They just scapegoat god to give creedence to an otherwise shallow effort based on greed! So, why don't we just leave each other the fuck alone and keep our beliefs to ourselves.

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