RE: Why Atheism Scares People (Full Version)

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SternSkipper -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/16/2012 4:01:52 PM)

quote:

I wasn't around back then for either event.
I'm pretty sure I have no bearing on what happened in years past.


Ah ... the lovely lady from Baltimore.. Hey in another thread I think, I mentioned you (well not in so many words ) as a possible source of local intelligence on what the impact of some minister in Baltimore that withdrew support for Obama in the wake of his endorsing Gay marriage... can you take a look at the mention at the bottom of the CNN article and see if you can offer any local spin?
http://www.collarchat.com/m_4118368/tm.htm

Thanks




dcnovice -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/16/2012 4:39:05 PM)

quote:

I do agree that the function of many religious groups is to function as community. And that part of the attraction for people is less the "god" aspect than the community aspect.

However, there is one thing to consider. What would you say about a country club that only admitted white Protestants? Or only whites? Or only straight people? While I don't dispute that religious communities operate as helpful, useful communities, the fact is that belonging to them is based on accepting their religious viewpoint. And if one doesn't accept their viewpoint, one can never be part of their club. So the very idea of religious community comes from an "us" vs. "them" attitude that I categorically reject.

My being atheist has left me in some ways outside of the religious community within which I grew up. It is harder for me to have the sense of religious community that my parents did by being part of a religious group. But I have found my own ways of being part of a community - and it is just community defined in ways other than religion (e.g., non-religious organizations, school organizations, neighborhood organizations, political organizations, charitable organizations, etc.) And I feel that these communities suit me better - they are more diverse. And for me, as someone who feels people are just people, I prefer to be part of communities that reflect the diversity that humankind has across religions, ethnicity, race, sexual orientation, etc., etc.


Ah, the joys, perils, and paradoxes of community! I once designed a retreat on this topic, drawing on the Harry Potter books. We had a great time, and I met one of my dearest friends that weekend.

In terms of religious community, I can only offer my own experience. After leaving behind my childhood Catholicism (poor fit for this gay man, though others seem to manage it), I've had the good fortune to belong to two life-enriching spiritual communities, one Episcopal and the other Unitarian. Both congregations are remarkably liberal (which will surprise no one who reads my posts), and members in each place would probably be more adept at welcoming an atheist than a fundamentalist. The Unitarian community, in fact, includes people who specifically identify themselves as nontheists. How typical either congregation is of the larger "religious" whole, I don't know. Perhaps not very.

In terms of demographics, I've been repeatedly struck by how church is the most diverse community in my life. DC, alas, still has an appalling amount of de facto segregation, with the result that my workplace, apartment building, and neighborhood are populated largely with people who look like me. Church, in contrast, draws what the Book of Common Prayer calls "all sorts and conditions" of folk--black and white, gay and straight, married and single, native-born and foreign-born. Church also includes children and old folks, whom I don't often see elsewhere.

I do agree that the "us vs. them" mindset can be dangerous, sometimes fatally. Far too much brutality, we all know, has been perpetrated in the name of religion. And, as Stalin and Mao made clear, nontheists can fall prey to that binary thinking too.

That said, I do think that one of the paradoxes of community is that any commonality short of Homo sapiens is going to raise the question of who's in and who's out. Focusing a group on a particular subset can have its merits. One of my cousins found incredible solace, a few years back, in a support group for cancer survivors; ditto for a friend in a (church-sponsored) community for people with HIV. Several friends chose all-women colleges because of the opportunity to see women in leadership roles and to avoid the white noise of male-female tensions. Political and advocacy groups gather folks whose commitment to a shared mindset--and desire to see it as the basis of public policy--can easily rival a church's. On a lighter note, even the "us vs. them" mindset can bring joy, as for sports fans. My own Long Island-based family divides into Yankees and Mets fans who regularly and lovingly spar with one another, though we all unite behind any team that plays Boston.

I'll end with a favorite sentence from the BCP, which makes a request quite different from what might expect of a stereotypical religious community: "Enrich our lives by ever-widening circles of fellowship, and show us your presence in those who differ most from us, until our knowledge of your love is made perfect in our love for all your children."

Amen.




dcnovice -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/16/2012 4:49:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MissAsylum

I wasn't around back then for either event.
I'm pretty sure I have no bearing on what happened in years past.


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

I think laws based on religion are stupid, I don't vote for any laws that are backed by a religious agenda.


I take your point, but I can't resist asking: Was the antislavery movement stupid? The Civil Rights movement? Both had deep religious roots.




As someone who lives in a town where evasion is an art form, I gotta say that answer is a masterpiece.




tweakabelle -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/16/2012 6:49:08 PM)

quote:

VincentML
That sounds similar to the Catholic tradition in which I was raised. No bible reading for us. No siree. Of course, we did have a history of Conquistadores and Inquisitions.


Same story here. I received the dubious benefits of a Catholic upbringing and education too.

My experience was that Catholics tend to treat proselytising as an export industry. We were constantly exhorted to support the valiant missionaries toiling away in deepest darkest Africa and other foreign places. We were far too young to realise that we were actually being asked to contribute to one the worst, most insidious, most destructive forms of cultural imperialism.

re: The OP
I'm afraid I see no way of resolving this issue, until believers begin to admit the possibility that they could be mistaken in their beliefs. Once believers come to that realisation, it becomes more difficult for them to be dogmatic about their beliefs.

I wish I could anticipate that happening in the short term, but to be honest, I can't see it happening in the long term. Some people need to have their 'truth' ready made and packaged for them.

So I am afraid that loud and vocal public opposition to the imposition of religious beliefs onto the body politic and into the law is the only option available to those of us who believe in pluralism and 'live and let live'. I would love to hear an alternative strategy that might be successful.




PeonForHer -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/16/2012 7:00:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
I'm afraid I see no way of resolving this issue, until believers begin to admit the possibility that they could be mistaken in their beliefs. Once believers come to that realisation, it becomes more difficult for them to be dogmatic about their beliefs.


But one man's dogma is another man's Faith. You don't go around entertaining the idea that you could be mistaken in your Faith - it's a contradiction in terms, isn't it?




tweakabelle -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/16/2012 7:05:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
I'm afraid I see no way of resolving this issue, until believers begin to admit the possibility that they could be mistaken in their beliefs. Once believers come to that realisation, it becomes more difficult for them to be dogmatic about their beliefs.


But one man's dogma is another man's Faith. You don't go around entertaining the idea that you could be mistaken in your Faith - it's a contradiction in terms, isn't it?

Yup. That's why I feel so pessimistic about this particular issue. I wish it was otherwise.




Whiplashsmile4 -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/16/2012 7:06:31 PM)

I'm going to be extremely specific... "The Right Wing Christians" scare the hell out of me. (refraining from long winded explaination)




fucktoyprincess -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/16/2012 7:16:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
I'm afraid I see no way of resolving this issue, until believers begin to admit the possibility that they could be mistaken in their beliefs. Once believers come to that realisation, it becomes more difficult for them to be dogmatic about their beliefs.


But one man's dogma is another man's Faith. You don't go around entertaining the idea that you could be mistaken in your Faith - it's a contradiction in terms, isn't it?

Yup. That's why I feel so pessimistic about this particular issue. I wish it was otherwise.


I was hoping someone on this thread would articulate something to pull me out of this pessimism, but it looks like that won't happen. And I see others share my pessimism. [:(]





fucktoyprincess -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/16/2012 7:30:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

VincentML
That sounds similar to the Catholic tradition in which I was raised. No bible reading for us. No siree. Of course, we did have a history of Conquistadores and Inquisitions.


Same story here. I received the dubious benefits of a Catholic upbringing and education too.

My experience was that Catholics tend to treat proselytising as an export industry. We were constantly exhorted to support the valiant missionaries toiling away in deepest darkest Africa and other foreign places. We were far too young to realise that we were actually being asked to contribute to one the worst, most insidious, most destructive forms of cultural imperialism.

re: The OP
I'm afraid I see no way of resolving this issue, until believers begin to admit the possibility that they could be mistaken in their beliefs. Once believers come to that realisation, it becomes more difficult for them to be dogmatic about their beliefs.

I wish I could anticipate that happening in the short term, but to be honest, I can't see it happening in the long term. Some people need to have their 'truth' ready made and packaged for them.

So I am afraid that loud and vocal public opposition to the imposition of religious beliefs onto the body politic and into the law is the only option available to those of us who believe in pluralism and 'live and let live'. I would love to hear an alternative strategy that might be successful.


Which is why some of us, given our background, feel this issue more deeply. What may not seem insidious in the U.S. or other Western nations relating to mission work, is viewed quite differently in places like India and Africa. I can certainly attest to this through extended family members from India, some of whom are now deceased. The picture they paint of the proselytizing efforts of various religions while not wholly awful, is not terribly pretty either. And I, having grown up part of my life in the Bible belt, can attest to the fact that what many seem benign to some of you does not seem so benign when one is growing up with a different faith, even here in the U.S.

I would encourage people who want to help people in impoverished economies to consider donating to non-religious charitable organizations who are involved in providing everything from medical care, education, clean water, small business capital, etc. to people in developing nations without the expectation of having to give up their cultural traditions and spiritual beliefs. For those of you who are believers, please respect the fact that people of other backgrounds and faiths are entitled to their own culture and religions, in many cases, cultures and religions that existed long before Jesus or Mohammed was ever born. To the extent that each of you feels close to the culture and religion that you were born and raised with, or close to a religion that you had chosen as an adult, please consider that people in other nations and of other faiths feel much the same about their respective cultures, religions and religious choices. Again, the moment we start imposing a particular religion on either those who don't believe in god OR those who believe in a different god, we are encroaching on something that should be an individual's right.




fucktoyprincess -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/16/2012 7:39:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Whiplashsmile4

I'm going to be extremely specific... "The Right Wing Christians" scare the hell out of me. (refraining from long winded explaination)


Understandably so. Again, if they kept to themselves and left the rest of us alone, no one would be concerned in the least.

On another note, who is the singer in the video in your signature line? Loved the video.




fucktoyprincess -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/16/2012 7:49:07 PM)

FR

I want to thank everyone who contributed to this thread regardless of your perspective. I found it to be an interesting discussion.

I would like everyone to consider the fact that the concept of freedom of religion necessarily goes with the concept of a secular society. Our founding fathers were not establishing a theocracy when they wrote the Constitution. If freedom of religion truly means we leave people free to practice their own religions, it necessarily means we cannot rely on any one religion or even a few religions to provide us with a framework for our laws and public policies. And if one believes in freedom of religion, one should be able to co-exist with people of all faiths, including people of no faith. In the ideal world, none of us, regardless of what god we believe in, or whether we believe in any god at all, should be "scary" to the other. And it is only when we are each not "scary" to the other, that peaceful co-existence can really occur. And, as others have also articulated, I am not overly optimistic about this.

Be well.




MissAsylum -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/16/2012 7:59:31 PM)

ha. [8|]

it was not evasion. its funny since you stated that you already saw my point.

i have nothing to do with those events, as i was not even thought of around that time. i'm concerned on what happens now. it may not sound the best- but i have to say, i don't care as when it comes to this situation of what agendas were behind the civil rights movement.

they happened, yay hooray that they did.

can i go home now?

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice


quote:

ORIGINAL: MissAsylum

I wasn't around back then for either event.
I'm pretty sure I have no bearing on what happened in years past.


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

I think laws based on religion are stupid, I don't vote for any laws that are backed by a religious agenda.


I take your point, but I can't resist asking: Was the antislavery movement stupid? The Civil Rights movement? Both had deep religious roots.




As someone who lives in a town where evasion is an art form, I gotta say that answer is a masterpiece.





PeonForHer -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/16/2012 8:40:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

I was hoping someone on this thread would articulate something to pull me out of this pessimism, but it looks like that won't happen. And I see others share my pessimism. [:(]



Oh I don't know. Plenty of people seem to be able to handle their particular faith whilst still putting up with those of others. It's just those who've found the 'shining path' that 'cuts through all doubt' who are the eternally dangerous frigging pains in the arse.

Strikes me that the world could be so different, now, if only the major religions had made more of a virtue of doubt.




fucktoyprincess -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/16/2012 9:02:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

I was hoping someone on this thread would articulate something to pull me out of this pessimism, but it looks like that won't happen. And I see others share my pessimism. [:(]



Oh I don't know. Plenty of people seem to be able to handle their particular faith whilst still putting up with those of others. It's just those who've found the 'shining path' that 'cuts through all doubt' who are the eternally dangerous frigging pains in the arse.

Strikes me that the world could be so different, now, if only the major religions had made more of a virtue of doubt.



How can you have a leap of faith if you admit doubt into the picture? Again, at one level I agree with you, that some introspection would do some good, but doesn't doubt cut to the core of belief? It seems to me they can't co-exist. And there we are, back at the original problem all over again. Exhausting, really. [&:]




vincentML -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/17/2012 6:22:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

I was hoping someone on this thread would articulate something to pull me out of this pessimism, but it looks like that won't happen. And I see others share my pessimism. [:(]



Oh I don't know. Plenty of people seem to be able to handle their particular faith whilst still putting up with those of others. It's just those who've found the 'shining path' that 'cuts through all doubt' who are the eternally dangerous frigging pains in the arse.

Strikes me that the world could be so different, now, if only the major religions had made more of a virtue of doubt.



How can you have a leap of faith if you admit doubt into the picture? Again, at one level I agree with you, that some introspection would do some good, but doesn't doubt cut to the core of belief? It seems to me they can't co-exist. And there we are, back at the original problem all over again. Exhausting, really. [&:]


You might read Mother Theresa's Diaries. She was much conflicted.

I would not be surprised to learn that many Believers are conflicted. Perhaps for them atheism is the mirror they wish to avoid, and so they look away.




fucktoyprincess -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/17/2012 6:36:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

I was hoping someone on this thread would articulate something to pull me out of this pessimism, but it looks like that won't happen. And I see others share my pessimism. [:(]



Oh I don't know. Plenty of people seem to be able to handle their particular faith whilst still putting up with those of others. It's just those who've found the 'shining path' that 'cuts through all doubt' who are the eternally dangerous frigging pains in the arse.

Strikes me that the world could be so different, now, if only the major religions had made more of a virtue of doubt.



How can you have a leap of faith if you admit doubt into the picture? Again, at one level I agree with you, that some introspection would do some good, but doesn't doubt cut to the core of belief? It seems to me they can't co-exist. And there we are, back at the original problem all over again. Exhausting, really. [&:]


You might read Mother Theresa's Diaries. She was much conflicted.

I would not be surprised to learn that many Believers are conflicted. Perhaps for them atheism is the mirror they wish to avoid, and so they look away.


The ones who are conflicted represent a more moderate voice of theism, and generally reject the notion that their religion is "superior" and therefore reject things like proselytization or any activity that could be perceived as undermining other people's right to their own religion.

But we are still left with the ones who either see no conflict, or actively choose to look away and proceed as if there is no doubt. And humanity will always have those types of believers. And again, it is just not clear to me how to peacefully co-exist in that situation when they will not let either nonbelievers, or believers of other faiths alone.

And I do challenge believers to move away from thinking of anyone who does not believe in their specific faith as a non-believer. My mother is a believer. She just doesn't believe in Christian god or an Muslim one. But she does believe, and ought to be entitled to her own belief system. What troubles me about some religions is that anyone who doesn't believe in their god goes into the non-believer category, and then one is faced with either proselytization efforts, the imposition of laws and policies defined by their religion, and in some cases in the world, annihilation if you are of a different religion. Just think about all the parts of the world where even today, ethnic and religious "cleansing" occurs.

Fundamentally, peaceful co-existence requires Christianity and Islam (and any other dogmatic religion) to accept that their path is not the only path, and to accept that they are NOT, in fact, responsible for saving other people's souls. We can call it "doubt", or "acceptance" or whatever term suits, but it seems inescapable to me that once some of these religions accept that they are not the only path, it undermines the very basis of the religion. For example, accepting what I have put forth would mean Christianity ought to really abandon its missionary/proselytizing efforts and just let others be. It means Islam must give up the concept of the infidel and eliminating the infidels. But for many in those religions, it is exactly those activities that define the religion for them. It is very hard for me to be optimistic about any of this. [&:]




DomKen -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/17/2012 9:12:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
I'm afraid I see no way of resolving this issue, until believers begin to admit the possibility that they could be mistaken in their beliefs. Once believers come to that realisation, it becomes more difficult for them to be dogmatic about their beliefs.


But one man's dogma is another man's Faith. You don't go around entertaining the idea that you could be mistaken in your Faith - it's a contradiction in terms, isn't it?

Yup. That's why I feel so pessimistic about this particular issue. I wish it was otherwise.


I was hoping someone on this thread would articulate something to pull me out of this pessimism, but it looks like that won't happen. And I see others share my pessimism. [:(]

Sorry, there is very little cause for optimism on this front.

Look at what happened to the so called "New Atheists." A movement that if it had been in support of any other religious minority would have been hailed as a civil rights movement was roundly condemned by most everyone, including a lot of self hating atheists, and Dawkins, Dennet, Harris, Hitchens and Myers were basically shouted down and condemned for simply saying we want the same respect other groups receive.




Whiplashsmile4 -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/17/2012 10:39:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

quote:

ORIGINAL: Whiplashsmile4

I'm going to be extremely specific... "The Right Wing Christians" scare the hell out of me. (refraining from long winded explaination)


Understandably so. Again, if they kept to themselves and left the rest of us alone, no one would be concerned in the least.

On another note, who is the singer in the video in your signature line? Loved the video.


It's a Russian Duo called "Vintage"... Anna Pletneva and Aleksey Romanof. Anna seems to do most of the singing though. :)




vincentML -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/17/2012 10:47:28 AM)

quote:

Fundamentally, peaceful co-existence requires Christianity and Islam (and any other dogmatic religion) to accept that their path is not the only path, and to accept that they are NOT, in fact, responsible for saving other people's souls.


Pfffft!!!! Christianity and Islam have both been imperialistic religious powers who lived and conquered by the sword following the examples of Constantine and Mohammad. Why would anything change now? History has not ended. It is delusional to dismiss their savage history with a focus upon their pious pronouncements. Fakery!




Moonhead -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/17/2012 12:58:56 PM)

There are sane and ecumenical (or at least willing to sneer at the heathen who are going to hell rather than forcibly converting them) elements in both religions.




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