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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/18/2012 2:38:00 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

I'd hate to be responsible for generating some pessimism so here's a more optimistic thought:

As far as I can see, the issue of peaceful co-existence between religious extremists and non-believers is a serious problem in only 2 Western countries - the US and Israel. European countries such as Spain Italy France or Ireland, all of South America and Australia are all nominally Christian but the direct influence of religion on public discourse is, by and large, minimal. We do have a Religious Right here but by and large, it is tolerated in a kind of bemused way and then ignored. Australians are as apathetic about religion as they are about anything else - and we are world leaders in political apathy.

As Israel has a pretty unique set of circumstances, we might then ask: What is it that sets some streams of US Christianity apart? Why are these particular sects are so intolerant? Why does religion play such a disproportionate role in public affairs in the US? Why is it that the 'culture wars' have been largely settled in other countries but not so in the US?


I so appreciate this, and just want to add a few thoughts.

France is definitely a secular state. They believe in a very strict separation of church and state. But they struggle internally with issues around ethnicity and religion, historically with French Jews, and now, particularly with respects to people of North African descent - most of whom have been relegated to segregated neighborhoods and who face a tremendous amount of discrimination. It is not clear to me how successful they have been. And while Front National is less openly racist than it was in the past, in my mind it is still an anti-semitic, anti-Muslim party that believes to be French means to be Catholic and white. I'm not sure I would hold France out as a success story on the pluralism front.

Italy is an unbelievably racist country. Just ask anyone of Romani/Gypsy descent. Not to mention Italy is a very anti-Muslim country. Again, Italy is a country that tends to favor white Catholics. And it does affect the way they shape their laws, and also how they enforce them. Perhaps this is to be expected in the home of the Vatican. I don't know. But as much as the French struggle with pluralism, Italy doesn't struggle - they are just openly racist. Again, not a success story on the pluralism front.

I cannot speak to the other countries as I am just not sufficiently aware (other than the obvious history) about what goes on in those countries today politically.

I think one reason why the U.S. is different from almost every other country you mention is the way we were settled. Many of the colonial settlers were fleeing religious persecution in their various homelands. The U.S. came to represent freedom from religious oppression. And thus, when the country separated from England, the notion of freedom of religion was enshrined in the Constitution because people felt it was such an important thing.

The reality of what has happened though, is that the U.S. has become home to all sorts of extremist religious thought. Extremism that in many other countries was never allowed to flourish because the dominant religions simply wiped it out alternative ways of viewing things. I doubt there is any other country in the world where you will find so many denominations of Christianity.

So we have an anomalous situation. Freedom of religion on the one hand, but a lot of extremism on the other.



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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/18/2012 2:41:58 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

Thanks, this was a real insight into an Atheist for me, a Christian. Let me say first that I am not afraid of atheists nor do I think anything is wrong with you. Nor do I know of any Christians who feel anything is wrong with atheists. I and other Christians I know do not use God to escape personal responsibility or leave things in God's hand or say bad things must happen because it is "God's way". Instead, Christians know we are earthly servants of our Creator, our Master if you will, who uses us and depends on us to "do things" to help the homeless man and be responsible for making things better while not waiting for some "divine intervention". This "doing" rather than waiting for God to do something is called "Good Works" and is the physical manifistation of the spiritual. As far as depending on God, we depend on the Most High for guidance and resources and also for Divine Intervention when we are powerless to do something on our own, after trying and we ask Him for His help and He then delivers in "God's Way". This is the true meaning of the phrase "God's Way" that you used in your OP.

Thank you again for your insight into the Atheist and this opportunity to provide you insight into the Christian.

Well wishes.


Thank you for your clarifications.

And again, to the extent you are able to peacefully co-exist with others and not feel that imposing your religion on others is required by your religion, then we can all get along. I just feel everyone's spiritual journey is their own. And therefore the majority religion and politics should not mix because it leaves others with their freedom of religion compromised.

I am "live and let live" to the extent that some of the more dogmatic will allow it.

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/18/2012 3:11:49 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MileHighM

I don't know if this has ever been stated on the boards, but I am going to say it now.

Atheists, despite their insistence are people of faith! They may not be a religion, but it wouldn't be impossible! Oh Science! as they said in South Park.

They are people of faith for the simple reason that the existence of God/gods/spirits/etc cannot be proven nor disproven, hence you have faith that they don't exist!


I think I've seen that argument implied, or actually put, quite a few times here. It's not true, though. It implies that atheists want to disprove the existence of God/gods/spirits/etc in the first place. I don't. For me, there's no point - in just the same way as there no point in my seeking to disprove that there's an elephant floating above my head.

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 5/18/2012 3:12:16 PM >

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/18/2012 3:18:42 PM   
MileHighM


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: MileHighM

I don't know if this has ever been stated on the boards, but I am going to say it now.

Atheists, despite their insistence are people of faith! They may not be a religion, but it wouldn't be impossible! Oh Science! as they said in South Park.

They are people of faith for the simple reason that the existence of God/gods/spirits/etc cannot be proven nor disproven, hence you have faith that they don't exist!


I think I've seen that argument implied, or actually put, quite a few times here. It's not true, though. It implies that atheists want to disprove the existence of God/gods/spirits/etc in the first place. I don't. For me, there's no point - in just the same way as there no point in my seeking to disprove that there's an elephant floating above my head.



You are missing the point---regardless of whether or not you feel the need to prove or disprove anything you have to have faith in your beliefs---period! Merely because without proof, it is all faith in the end.

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/18/2012 3:28:03 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MileHighM

You are missing the point---regardless of whether or not you feel the need to prove or disprove anything you have to have faith in your beliefs---period! Merely because without proof, it is all faith in the end.


If it makes it easier for you to tolerate atheists (by simply thinking of atheism as another faith) then so be it. I'm not sure many atheists would necessarily agree with your viewpoint, but if it helps you, then fine.

Again, the ultimate goal is peaceful co-existence. So as long as you are willing to grant that people of other faiths (whether Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, "Atheist", etc.) are entitled to freedom of religion, and entitled to a secular state where no one religion dominates the laws and policies of the state, then we are all good.

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/18/2012 3:32:38 PM   
MileHighM


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess


quote:

ORIGINAL: MileHighM

You are missing the point---regardless of whether or not you feel the need to prove or disprove anything you have to have faith in your beliefs---period! Merely because without proof, it is all faith in the end.


If it makes it easier for you to tolerate atheists (by simply thinking of atheism as another faith) then so be it. I'm not sure many atheists would necessarily agree with your viewpoint, but if it helps you, then fine.

Again, the ultimate goal is peaceful co-existence. So as long as you are willing to grant that people of other faiths (whether Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, "Atheist", etc.) are entitled to freedom of religion, and entitled to a secular state where no one religion dominates the laws and policies of the state, then we are all good.


I tolerate, because I don't care. There is no rational, no logic to prove anyone right (it ultimately pissed of Des Carte, cause he thought he could logically prove something, ultimately he discovered the only indisputable truth in life "I think therefore I am")

I know they don't agree with me because they have faith in the idea that they don't have faith! it is a twisted paradox of logic!

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/18/2012 3:53:46 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MileHighM

You are missing the point---regardless of whether or not you feel the need to prove or disprove anything you have to have faith in your beliefs---period! Merely because without proof, it is all faith in the end.


Let me put it this way, then: Currently, there is no light bulb in the socket in my table lamp. I don't have any faith that there's no light bulb in the socket, I *know* that there's no light bulb in the socket. If there was a light bulb in the socket, I would not talk about having 'faith' that there's a light bulb in the socket, I would *know* that there's a light bulb in the socket.

You might argue that the existence or non-existence of God isn't like the existence or non-existence of light bulbs. But, to me, it is. Just like I know that there's no light bulb in my light socket, I know that there isn't a God, at least that of any organised religion. (Yes, I admit it, I'm not entirely an atheist. )

(Some time ago I read of the distinction between 'faith' and 'knowledge'. Faith is the conviction that something is true, despite one being aware that the full facts are not available. From what I recall.)

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/18/2012 3:59:27 PM   
PeonForHer


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In answer to an earlier question - ' how can faith and doubt exist?' - I guess one way is through unreason. You know that your religion is steeped in unreason, though your faith overrides that. However, you can draw from your unreason enough to accept the beliefs of others, especially given that *they* are based heavily on unreason, too.

You end up with a fuzzy kind of logic, strong enough to keep you going, but not so strong that you become a tyrant to others. You're happy to put up with a soft glow till you die, at which point you get the full blinding light.

I think that's roughly how it works for my mother and father, anyway.

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/18/2012 4:06:06 PM   
MileHighM


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: MileHighM

You are missing the point---regardless of whether or not you feel the need to prove or disprove anything you have to have faith in your beliefs---period! Merely because without proof, it is all faith in the end.


Let me put it this way, then: Currently, there is no light bulb in the socket in my table lamp. I don't have any faith that there's no light bulb in the socket, I *know* that there's no light bulb in the socket. If there was a light bulb in the socket, I would not talk about having 'faith' that there's a light bulb in the socket, I would *know* that there's a light bulb in the socket.

You might argue that the existence or non-existence of God isn't like the existence or non-existence of light bulbs. But, to me, it is. Just like I know that there's no light bulb in my light socket, I know that there isn't a God, at least that of any organised religion. (Yes, I admit it, I'm not entirely an atheist. )

(Some time ago I read of the distinction between 'faith' and 'knowledge'. Faith is the conviction that something is true, despite one being aware that the full facts are not available. From what I recall.)



Actually no, everything could be in your head, as if you are brain in jar (kinda like the matrix, except not as leather). The only thing you know is that you exist, and nothing beyond it. Logically its all you can prove to yourself.

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/18/2012 4:13:33 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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Status: offline 		My brain is in a jar.

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/18/2012 4:15:11 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MileHighM
Actually no, everything could be in your head, as if you are brain in jar (kinda like the matrix, except not as leather). The only thing you know is that you exist, and nothing beyond it. Logically its all you can prove to yourself.


I'm sorry, I'm not going to discuss this further with you because you don't exist.

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/18/2012 4:16:39 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

My brain is in a jar.


No, that jar contains a pickled walnut. You need new glasses.

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/18/2012 4:57:50 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

My brain is in a jar.


No, that jar contains a pickled walnut. You need new glasses.


My glasses are in the jar 2 down and to the left. The one you thought was a walnut....that's one of my nuts. A gift from my ex wife).

(I don't know if you caught the significance of this, however, allow me to be more pointed....I have no hands).

< Message edited by LookieNoNookie -- 5/18/2012 4:58:40 PM >

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/18/2012 5:06:40 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

Martin Luther . . . . puhleezzzz!!! Hardly a paragon of tolerance and moderation.


Fair point, Vincent: Luther was appallingly anti-semitic. (How he compared to others of his time, I don't know, but that's not an excuse anyway.) I thought of him (sleepily) last night as someone who challenged the status quo. He obviously wasn't, nor did I cast him (to be fair), as "a paragon of tolerance and moderation."

quote:

a one page display ????


To be honest, I haven't made the trek to see it yet, so I'm not sure how the Smithsonian is displaying it. It would be hard to show more than a single spread without taking the book apart, which curators may be reluctant to do.

It does like like anyone who want to see the whole thing can page through an online edition.



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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/18/2012 5:30:55 PM   
fucktoyprincess


Posts: 2337
Status: offline 		"I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know."

— Thomas Jefferson, 1819

One of the original American champions of freedom of religion and peaceful co-existence.

I find Jefferson a useful touchstone. For me the J in WWJD, is not Jesus, but Jefferson.

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/18/2012 5:41:18 PM   
dcnovice


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I find Jefferson a useful touchstone. For me the J in WWJD, is not Jesus, but Jefferson.


I need to read a good biography of him. He strikes me as a bit paradoxical: favoring small government and strict construction, but buying Louisiana, for instance. And, of course, it's hard to square his magnificent words of equality and rights with his failure, even in his will, to free his slaves.

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/18/2012 5:47:13 PM   
dcnovice


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For me the J in WWJD, is not Jesus, but Jefferson.


Working at the Woodrow Wilson Hpuse here in DC, I sometimes amuse myself by thinking that if I used Wilson as my touchstone (which I never would), the bracelet would read WWWWD.

_____________________________

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/18/2012 5:47:46 PM   
Aswad


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ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

I know that there isn't a God, at least that of any organised religion.


Course there is. It's called power.

A non-corporeal entity that arguably tends to be at the heart of organised anything, and closely related to money.

IWYW,
- Aswad.



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From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/18/2012 5:48:36 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

I find Jefferson a useful touchstone. For me the J in WWJD, is not Jesus, but Jefferson.


I need to read a good biography of him. He strikes me as a bit paradoxical: favoring small government and strict construction, but buying Louisiana, for instance. And, of course, it's hard to square his magnificent words of equality and rights with his failure, even in his will, to free his slaves.


Yes, agreed, his record on slavery was not admirable, but that made him no different from most Americans of his time. I still think it is impressive that he, and the other founding fathers, still crafted founding documents and a political system that when the time came, could enable the abolition of slavery, the civil rights movement, women's vote, etc., etc., etc. In other words, his basic Enlightenment views helped draft a document that could change and evolve with the times while still providing political stability to the nation. A remarkable feat in my mind.

And as a touchstone, I would say I meant that more from a politics and religion standpoint, because I would hold him out as someone who believed in keeping the two somewhat separate.

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/18/2012 6:11:23 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Currently, there is no light bulb in the socket in my table lamp. I don't have any faith that there's no light bulb in the socket, I *know* that there's no light bulb in the socket.



So, using this logic, there's no such thing as LOVE, as you cannot see a love "light-bulb" -- but must have "faith" that love exists?!!



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