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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/18/2012 6:12:44 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: submaleuk12

I think it's the atheists who are the untolerant ones.


I think it's humans who are intolerant.

Bear in mind that most people, of any denomination or lack thereof, fail miserably at teaching their children to reason (or anything else, really). And when people renounce whatever they were raised with, they fail to see that they're just swapping one set of dogma for another, while still operating on the basis of unreasoning consultation of their current set of dogma. This is the same for both camps, in my experience.

People don'seek simplicity and a feeling of safety, which excludes uncertainty for most.

Ignorance is bliss, and all that.

Quite simply put, humans are generally provincial children, forced to take on the burden of the likeness of freedom when they're stuck in the limbo between comprehension and innocence, and driven to one or the other of the two because they cannot decide which is worse of being chained and being free, ostensibly not longing for the former and observably not longing for the latter. For most, the choice lands on going with whatever they were raised with, insofar as it is palatable to them (or whatever is perceived to be its diametric opposite, otherwise), and closing their minds to anything else than what allows them to get through another day of meaningless pursuits, never daring to dream of what they might be or what meaning they might find.

Religions are merely more aware of the shortcomings of humans and nature, for better or for worse.

If all religion disappeared tomorrow, humanity would change not one iota.

IWYW,
- Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to submaleuk12)
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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/18/2012 6:19:52 PM   
Master2811


Posts: 120
Joined: 5/4/2012
Status: offline 		I believe in God. And I have very good reasons to believe in Him.

http://www.godandscience.org/evolution/locke.html

There you can read all the facts the evolutionists have to ignore to still believe in their theory, making the evolution theory nothing more than a religion for atheists. A religion far less reliable than the God hypothesis

< Message edited by Master2811 -- 5/18/2012 6:26:06 PM >

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/18/2012 6:30:41 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

I think it's humans who are intolerant.

QFT.

quote:

If all religion disappeared tomorrow, humanity would change not one iota.


And the records of societies that have consciously tried to subtract religion from both public and private life--Soviet Russia, Communist China--are not encouraging.


_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/18/2012 6:40:08 PM   
fucktoyprincess


Posts: 2337
Status: offline 		Aswad, I agree with your post, although your statement, "If all religion disappeared tomorrow, humanity would change not one iota" is only tenable for me if people voluntarily gave up religion, as opposed to having it taken from them. I still stand by my statement in my original post, that people need religion. So for religion to disappear would require people to no longer have the need for it. And I'm not convinced that will ever happen. But if it were to happen, I agree that humanity is not likely to change - in that those of us who are compassionate would remain so, and those who are not, would still not be so.

What I found most insightful in your post was in your signature line:

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

I forgot that quote from Watchmen. It's quite brilliant.


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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/18/2012 6:52:22 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


Cool!

There was once a cartoon in the Episcopal Diocese of Washington paper that showed people talking:

A: I sometimes wonder why God allows war, poverty, cruelty, and injustice.
B: Why don't you ask God?
A: I'm kinda afraid God will ask me the same thing.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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Profile   Post #: 225
RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/18/2012 8:02:46 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

Aswad, I agree with your post, although your statement, "If all religion disappeared tomorrow, humanity would change not one iota" is only tenable for me if people voluntarily gave up religion, as opposed to having it taken from them.


Obviously, it's a hypothetical.

Taking it away has- as dcnovice pointed out- a very poor track record.

quote:

I still stand by my statement in my original post, that people need religion.


Some do, certainly. Probably most.

I have a different hypothesis as to the source of the perceived need, but for practical purposes the outcome is the same.

For me personally, though, the question of faith proceeds without the need. It's like the difference between loving life (which I do) and fearing death (which I don't). Faith is a lot less complicated when you embrace it without the need being there to occlude and bias. It raises interesting questions, and doesn't give out freebie answers. Organized religion, on the other hand, tends to raise few questions and hands out many answers to questions that usually aren't worth asking in the first place. The frosting displaces the cake, so to speak. But that is not exclusive to religion, of course. Few things are, which many atheists seem not to see. The misattribution thing is a mistake that has been done to death by organized religions already, and we might want to learn from it at some point.

Which less of a digression than a disclosure of bias/interest thing.

quote:

I forgot that quote from Watchmen. It's quite brilliant.


Which is why it's in my signature line. If you haven't seen it yet, Jackie Earle Haley makes an excellent delivery of that line in the film adaptation of the comic, and does a great job of portraying him overall. Rorschack is my favorite character in Watchmen. I figure he gets the "what comic book 'hero' would you want to be"-vote, as well. Comedian gets it, but Rorschack groks it. Life, humanity, all of it.

IWYW,
- Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to fucktoyprincess)
Profile   Post #: 226
RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/19/2012 7:05:24 AM   
fucktoyprincess


Posts: 2337
Status: offline 		Thanks for sharing your thoughts. A slightly different perspective, and that is always helpful.

I've seen the movie, and yes, I remember feeling literally chilled when the lines were delivered.

I'm quite jealous that you have already appropriated that quote! It actually sums up my worldview very nicely. I should have just dispensed with my overly long OP, and put this quote there!




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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/19/2012 7:37:35 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Master2811

I believe in God. And I have very good reasons to believe in Him.

http://www.godandscience.org/evolution/locke.html

There you can read all the facts the evolutionists have to ignore to still believe in their theory, making the evolution theory nothing more than a religion for atheists. A religion far less reliable than the God hypothesis

Your mind was changed by a review of Denton's and Behe's books? Did you read the books? Did you do the research to find out that every major claim in both books is a lie and that the authors should have known the claims were untrue when they wrote them?

How about you present what ever claim from either book you think is the strongest and I'll show you why it is both incorrect and the author knew it was when he wrote it.

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/19/2012 8:11:40 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


Cool!

There was once a cartoon in the Episcopal Diocese of Washington paper that showed people talking:

A: I sometimes wonder why God allows war, poverty, cruelty, and injustice.
B: Why don't you ask God?
A: I'm kinda afraid God will ask me the same thing.


Ask God why innocent children are allowed to die in earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, cyclones, and tsunamis. Perhaps God is indifferent to human suffering caused by his own creation? Or perhaps he will remain mute. It is the unanswerable question for believers.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 5/19/2012 8:16:14 AM >

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/19/2012 8:14:30 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Master2811

I believe in God. And I have very good reasons to believe in Him.

http://www.godandscience.org/evolution/locke.html

There you can read all the facts the evolutionists have to ignore to still believe in their theory, making the evolution theory nothing more than a religion for atheists. A religion far less reliable than the God hypothesis


Atheism and Disbelief predated Darwin by centuries. The theory of Evolution is not the core of Disbelief.

You are throwing stones at a strawman.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 5/19/2012 8:15:11 AM >

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/19/2012 10:30:18 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

I've seen the movie, and yes, I remember feeling literally chilled when the lines were delivered.


And probably one of the best done exits in the history of the genre.

quote:

I'm quite jealous that you have already appropriated that quote! It actually sums up my worldview very nicely. I should have just dispensed with my overly long OP, and put this quote there!


You mean to say I was on the side of brevity for once?

Pigs shall surely fly.

IWYW,
- Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to fucktoyprincess)
Profile   Post #: 231
RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/19/2012 1:32:13 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Ask God why innocent children are allowed to die in earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, cyclones, and tsunamis.

Or, we could ask why grown adults turn petulant when they discover that the world isn't as safe as their mommy's womb.

K.





< Message edited by Kirata -- 5/19/2012 2:20:55 PM >

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/20/2012 12:04:35 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Ask God why innocent children are allowed to die in earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, cyclones, and tsunamis.

Or, we could ask why grown adults turn petulant when they discover that the world isn't as safe as their mommy's womb.

K.






Your comment avoids the issue. It is a well discussed theological question. Not mine originally. If you care to offer an answer please do so. If you are able to, that is. Do try to rise above the usual, snarky character attack. If you have nothing of substance to bring to the table, push back your chair. Simple enough even for Kirata.

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/20/2012 1:45:20 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Ask God why innocent children are allowed to die in earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, cyclones, and tsunamis.

Or, we could ask why grown adults turn petulant when they discover that the world isn't as safe as their mommy's womb.

Your comment avoids the issue.

Well our perceptions differ. I think my comment strikes directly at the heart of the issue. Yes, the question has a long history in the annals of ecclesiastical chess. But where, precisely, is the hard connection between naturally occurring processes on our planet and the moral goodness of God? The argument your question furthers is approximately this: "Daddy let's bad things happen. He isn't very nice. I don't want a Daddy who lets bads things happen."

K.

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/20/2012 1:50:39 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

It is a well discussed theological question. Not mine originally.


I've read some of those discussions, and I'm not inclined to agree that it has been "well" discussed, among other things because it's often discussed in isolation. Confining the domain of discourse to a single subject and refusing to propagate the argumentation outside the assumptions imposed as boundary conditions of the domain will never result in progress toward the truth, or even viable answers. Such has been the main problem with the transition that occured in the church early on: moving from a mystery cult searching for enlightenment, to a cult of doctrine that imposed answers and forbade enlightenment. There's no theology in that, merely political rationalizations and justifications.

Which takes us back to conflating organizations with the religions they claim to front.

IWYW,
- Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 235
RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/20/2012 2:37:19 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Ask God why innocent children are allowed to die in earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, cyclones, and tsunamis.

Or, we could ask why grown adults turn petulant when they discover that the world isn't as safe as their mommy's womb.

Your comment avoids the issue.

Well our perceptions differ. I think my comment strikes directly at the heart of the issue. Yes, the question has a long history in the annals of ecclesiastical chess. But where, precisely, is the hard connection between naturally occurring processes on our planet and the moral goodness of God? The argument your question furthers is approximately this: "Daddy let's bad things happen. He isn't very nice. I don't want a Daddy who lets bads things happen."

K.


Thank you for the clarification. The question goes to the nature of God and to humankind's attempts to understand the eternal question: WTF?

The existence of natural processes that kill innocent children brings to question the Merciful and Omnipotent God of Christianity. I think the connection is clearly palpable. It is not about what kind of Daddy we want but about what kind of Daddy we have, if any, and if He is deserving of Praise and Obedience. Is he a Daddy of mercy and justice or one of indiscriminant punishment? Is he even in control? Is he even present in this world? Is the Christian God a god of intention? Or just a blind, bumbling monster? ETC

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/20/2012 2:42:41 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

It is a well discussed theological question. Not mine originally.


I've read some of those discussions, and I'm not inclined to agree that it has been "well" discussed, among other things because it's often discussed in isolation. Confining the domain of discourse to a single subject and refusing to propagate the argumentation outside the assumptions imposed as boundary conditions of the domain will never result in progress toward the truth, or even viable answers. Such has been the main problem with the transition that occured in the church early on: moving from a mystery cult searching for enlightenment, to a cult of doctrine that imposed answers and forbade enlightenment. There's no theology in that, merely political rationalizations and justifications.

Which takes us back to conflating organizations with the religions they claim to front.

IWYW,
- Aswad.




I think the question existed well before the institutionalization of the church. It was never exclusively a Christian question. Nor is it today. The mystery of Jesus's death was taken as one answer. But the question lingers unanswered imo. What boundaries bother you so?

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/20/2012 3:02:41 PM   
dcnovice


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Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline 		FR

I come late to the theodicy discussion (busy weekend including, yes, church), but I think Vincent raises a key question, one at least as old as the Book of Job: Why does a good God seem to have woven so much suffering into creation?

For me, as someone groping toward a spiritual path and keenly aware that it may all be wishful thinking, the only honest answer is, "I don't know."

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 238
RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/20/2012 4:26:47 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

FR

I come late to the theodicy discussion (busy weekend including, yes, church), but I think Vincent raises a key question, one at least as old as the Book of Job: Why does a good God seem to have woven so much suffering into creation?



Maybe because he isn't a good God.

Funny, really. I've often thought that the argument is wrongly polarised. It's either a) God is good, but we can't understand the goodness in him or b) there is no God, because it's not possible to see what's happening as 'good'. But what about a third option - that God does indeed exist, but is basically a bit of a wanker?

I mean, I can only too easily imagine some bearded old fucker upstairs rubbing his hands in glee and saying to himself, for instance, "Oooh, I know. I'll create a system in which one creature can only live at the expense of the terror, pain and death of another creature." (The Greek Gods, for instance, were often contemptibly nasty in that way.)

Well, really - it's a bit sadistic, isn't it? Would *you* cook up a natural system that worked that way, if you were omnipotent, and all?

ETA

I was just suddenly reminded of a nature doc in which a pack of wolves had worn down a bison by preventing it from drinking water, then had started eating it, while it was still alive, from the hindquarters upwards. They had to eat it, of course, because they were starving. They couldn't go near its head to kill it because they could have got gored.

All together now: "'All things bright and beautiful, the Lord God made them all".

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 5/20/2012 4:35:01 PM >

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/20/2012 4:32:47 PM   
LadyHibiscus


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From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		Peon touches on what I call the "ant farm" theory. Ever knocked over an anthill to watch them scatter, or shaken an ant farm? There you go.



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