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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/20/2012 8:35:57 PM   
luv4MG


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< Message edited by luv4MG -- 5/20/2012 8:36:45 PM >

(in reply to Kirata)
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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/20/2012 9:22:49 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

I don't feel compelled to help everyone, though I do what I can. And I live the adventure free of guidance from above.


I imagine this is true of God, too, on both counts.

My point wasn't to criticize, but rather that intervening is a complicated and demanding thing that each must decide for his/her/its self how to handle, and how much time and effort to sink into. What passes for omnipotence to a sheepherder in the Middle East millenia ago may not be what constitutes actual omnipotence, and a rational inquiry into religion is probably going to have to give up on establishing a neat package of answers.

We exist. We live. That's enough love for me. I'd like more, of course. But whether chance or will gave me this reality and a place in it, I'm happy about that. Consider it the anthropic principle turned into a religious one: I believe this universe exists because of a love of life and liberty existing somewhere in some form. Perhaps, but not necessarily, in a conscious entity. And that this sets for us a good example of a set of interlocking cardinal values; life and liberty as something to love, even if and when you're taking it away (e.g. for food).

Assuming for a moment that my unsubstantiated belief holds (it's unprovable, so humor me), then isn't the existence of life and liberty enough to reciprocate that love, and a thing well worth celebrating? Without a reality in which to experience, we would know no suffering, but also know no life or liberty. And I can't conceive of a viable reality without suffering in which one could have life and liberty in any meaningful sense, although I don't exclude the possibility, of course. Perhaps I'm simply constructing some endpoint for my appreciation of these things, but there's the top of my 'pantheon', the irreducible core assumption.

Scientifically speaking, of course, there's no evidence and my belief is untestable. And, again scientifically speaking, high energy physics points at a significant likelihood that the observable universe will flicker out of existence with no warning at some point in the future, maybe tomorrow, maybe in billions of years. The search for Higgs currently bounds its energy into the range where a vacuum metastability event is plausible, but not a given. A result of that would, of course, be the elimination of all life throughout the observable universe, without the possiblity that life as we know it could reoccur.

I don't fear death, but I certainly love life. Not necessarily my own life specifically (at times I'm not too keen on that one), but life in general. And it pleases me to believe that the universe has some appreciation for life, indeed lends itself to it through incredibly complex fine tuning of the physical parameters. That it has this inherent beauty to it, rather than being inclined to randomly decay into one in which life no longer exists and not so much as see the loss because it is devoid of that appreciation. Cause that would be kind of sad. The universe deserves to know the value of the life it houses, and to be able to enjoy it as much as the entities that live inside it, through them...

... meh, my thoughts are dissolving again. Hopefully I got across some of what I meant to.

IWYW,
- Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to LadyHibiscus)
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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/20/2012 9:52:56 PM   
LadyHibiscus


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Status: offline 		Always pleased to hear your thoughts, Aswad!

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/20/2012 11:08:37 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

it pleases me to believe that the universe has some appreciation for life, indeed lends itself to it through incredibly complex fine tuning of the physical parameters. That it has this inherent beauty to it, rather than being inclined to randomly decay into one in which life no longer exists and not so much as see the loss because it is devoid of that appreciation. Cause that would be kind of sad. The universe deserves to know the value of the life it houses, and to be able to enjoy it as much as the entities that live inside it, through them...

... meh, my thoughts are dissolving again.

Dissolving? I don't think so. Sounds more like you were just 'bhagavading' a bit (if you'll forgive the coinage).

K.

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/21/2012 2:53:54 AM   
Rule


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Status: offline 		I agree.

(in reply to Aswad)
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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/21/2012 3:05:58 AM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
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From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		The latest data suggests that 3.8% of the world's population are atheists.

Speaking for my self, I was raised Catholic, and while I still consider myself Catholic, I have not been to mass in years.

I have a belief in God due to a few events in my life that I just cant explain scientifically.

However, if someone believes there is no god, then it is not my job to convince them otherwise. I will not argue the point with them, it is a matter of agreeing to disagree.

The only question I have is simple.

If the majority of people on this planet believe in a supreme being, what makes atheists right?

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/21/2012 4:50:56 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

The "clearly palpable" connection you claim is based solely on the premise -- nothing more than just an opinion really -- that the world would be different if there was a merciful and omnipotent God. But why should that necessarily be the case? This is an exciting wild planet, not a play pen. Life here is an adventure, an adventure we invest with purpose and meaning by living it fully. Why should such a gift be held to be "improper" of a merciful and omnipotent God?



I am not speculating what the world would be like if there were a merciful and omnipotent God. The world is what it is. You are misreading my premise, I think. I have no beef with the Universe.

Life here is an adventure, as you say, if you live long enough to invest it with purpose and meaning. My premise is based upon the destruction of innocent children who are denied that opportunity because they are killed early by natural forces. Innocent victims of Natural Evil. Calling it EVIL because there is a perpetrator. God, as the creator, is the agent who is morally responsible for the destruction of the innocent [or there is no God]

I am saying that a crime has been committed and Daddy is guilty. He is not merciful; he is immoral.

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/21/2012 4:54:18 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

The latest data suggests that 3.8% of the world's population are atheists.

Speaking for my self, I was raised Catholic, and while I still consider myself Catholic, I have not been to mass in years.

I have a belief in God due to a few events in my life that I just cant explain scientifically.

However, if someone believes there is no god, then it is not my job to convince them otherwise. I will not argue the point with them, it is a matter of agreeing to disagree.

The only question I have is simple.

If the majority of people on this planet believe in a supreme being, what makes atheists right?



I think technically once you're baptised you remain a catholic whatever the hell you believe unless you convert to something that precludes that or get excommunicated. It's an authority structure as much as a religion, after all.

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(in reply to jlf1961)
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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/21/2012 4:57:29 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

The notion that we can't fully grasp God is functionally equivalent to the notion that we can't fully grasp reality.


You might also say that God works his wonders in great and mysterious ways.

Of course we should be aware of epistemological limitations and perhaps they do enhance our adventure but sometiimes reality is just too obvious. When one is standing in front of an oncoming train one does not debate whether he can fully grasp reality.

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/21/2012 5:01:05 AM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

The latest data suggests that 3.8% of the world's population are atheists.

Speaking for my self, I was raised Catholic, and while I still consider myself Catholic, I have not been to mass in years.

I have a belief in God due to a few events in my life that I just cant explain scientifically.

However, if someone believes there is no god, then it is not my job to convince them otherwise. I will not argue the point with them, it is a matter of agreeing to disagree.

The only question I have is simple.

If the majority of people on this planet believe in a supreme being, what makes atheists right?

I'm gonna notpick. I saw something recently that said a majority of the world's population is actually one type of animist or another. This means that they believe that spirits (plural) inhabit everything around them. Water, trees, the earth, celestial bodies, animals all have a spirit that combines to make a whole planet. It's not unlike what I understand of Neopagans.
No one supreme being but a lot of spirit forces surrounding us.
If you wish, I can go and dig up the link.

< Message edited by Hillwilliam -- 5/21/2012 5:02:51 AM >

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Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/21/2012 5:16:51 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

And I can't conceive of a viable reality without suffering in which one could have life and liberty in any meaningful sense,


Is this the same as saying some must suffer so some can have life and liberty?

quote:

The search for Higgs currently bounds its energy into the range where a vacuum metastability event is plausible, but not a given.


That is a fascinating and out of the box concept, isn't it?

quote:

And it pleases me to believe that the universe has some appreciation for life, indeed lends itself to it through incredibly complex fine tuning of the physical parameters.


Some believe on the one hand that the Universe was made for life. Others hold however that the fine tuning is an illusion and exists only because carbon based life exists within these particular physical conditions. In other words, it is the existence of life that gives speciality to the Universe.

I enjoy your speculations, Aswad.

(in reply to Aswad)
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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/21/2012 6:59:23 AM   
fucktoyprincess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

The latest data suggests that 3.8% of the world's population are atheists.

Speaking for my self, I was raised Catholic, and while I still consider myself Catholic, I have not been to mass in years.

I have a belief in God due to a few events in my life that I just cant explain scientifically.

However, if someone believes there is no god, then it is not my job to convince them otherwise. I will not argue the point with them, it is a matter of agreeing to disagree.

The only question I have is simple.

If the majority of people on this planet believe in a supreme being, what makes atheists right?


My original post on this thread discussed the notion that people need religion. In other words, religion and belief in a god exist because people need this for many purposes in their lives. I am not going to re-post my entire statement here.

The fact that people seem to need their belief in god or need religion in their lives does not say anything one way or the other about the existence of god.

Again, the goal should be peaceful co-existence with peoples of all faiths and approaches. Peaceful co-existence does not require us to answer definitively whether god exists or not. It also does not require us to answer whose god is best/right. It simply requires us to respect that others might have a different god (or gods) and that others may not believe in any of the religions at all. I feel part of the debate is not necessary for society to move forward.

The only difficulty is that some realigns, due to their beliefs in responsibility for other people's souls, proselytizing, mission work, attitude to infidels, etc. are inherently against the concept of peaceful co-existence.

We can all sit here and debate the existence of god, but I guess my original post was trying to suggest that it isn't necessary, really, to do so. What is required is respect and a genuine "leave the other person be" approach. But it has been my experience that certain religions are incapable of this because of their doctrine. And this leaves humanity at an impasse unless the moderates can re-shape the very doctrines of their religions.

I don't deny anyone their faith. But this means the concept of encouraging conversion, or punishing those who are not part of one's religion must stop. While atheists are a small minority in the world, non-Christians and non-Muslims are a sizable number. And how Muslims and Christians treat each other matters, too. This is not purely a debate about the believers and non-believers, but about all people, regardless of what they believe - and this is a wide range of things.

For example, here is one estimate of worldwide religious demographics: http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html



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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/21/2012 9:04:26 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

This is not purely a debate about the believers and non-believers, but about all people, regardless of what they believe - and this is a wide range of things.


Seriously, no disrespect intended. Perhaps the title of this thread should have been more in keeping with your intentions, if you are unhappy with the discourse.

(in reply to fucktoyprincess)
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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/21/2012 10:10:50 AM   
fucktoyprincess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

This is not purely a debate about the believers and non-believers, but about all people, regardless of what they believe - and this is a wide range of things.


Seriously, no disrespect intended. Perhaps the title of this thread should have been more in keeping with your intentions, if you are unhappy with the discourse.


No, I stand by the title. Peaceful co-existence is only possible when people are not scared of each other. Live and let live means at some fundamental level one does not feel threatened by the other.

So my original post coupled with the other posts I've made on this thread stand as as cohesive thread. After all the title of my thread is not "god does not exist". I never posted to prove that. I posted to explore why people feel they cannot co-exist, i.e., what is scary about an atheist. And I think the discussion in the thread has actually been quite insightful into the fact that it is particular religious dictates that make co-existence next to impossible. If you believe you are responsible for my soul, and not only for my belief in god, but my belief in the correct god, then my saying to you, "I don't believe in any god" is, actually, scary.

I see absolutely nothing to gain from spending my valuable time trying to convince people that god doesn't exist when most people on the planet have a deep-rooted need for religion. I feel it would be a massive achievement for people of all beliefs just to be able to agree to co-exist. But that requires some religions in particular, to modify the importance of certain doctrine.

_____________________________

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/21/2012 10:32:19 AM   
MasterSlaveLA


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

My original post on this thread discussed the notion that people need religion.



And said "notion" is FALSE.  You may think others "need" religion, but that does not make it so -- more likely that some Atheists such as yourself "need" to believe this silly "notion" for some strange (likely self-serving) reason?!!  Many CHOOSE their faith, despite your thinking they "need" anything.


quote:



...religion in their lives does not say anything one way or the other about the existence of god.



Ummm... to YOU.  I have see God work in my life, but then I'm a "believer", where you are not -- so YOU wouldn't.  It's like the tag line for Lottery... "You can't win if you don't play".


quote:



Again, the goal should be peaceful co-existence with peoples of all faiths and approaches.



And yet... it was NOT someone of faith who started this thread and alleged that "X scares Y" -- it was YOU... an Atheist.  So said "peaceful co-existence" was disrupted by YOU... an Atheist -- not by someone of faith.  Thus, the "need" to disrupt, yet once again, is from the Atheist -- not those of faith.


quote:



Peaceful co-existence... requires us to respect that others might have a different god (or gods) and that others may not believe in any of the religions at all.



And making such wildly ludicrous claims that those of faith (i) seem to "need" religion, or (ii) are "scared" by Atheism accomplished said "respect" how, exactly?!!  This thread, and the allegations made, is little more than ATHEIST PROSELYTIZING -- and the internet version of knocking on someone's door and spouting YOUR beliefs.

quote:

 

What is required is respect and a genuine "leave the other person be" approach.



And yet... it was YOU -- an ATHEIST -- who was the one who ignored the above.

quote:



...it has been my experience that certain religions are incapable of this



And THIS THREAD, coupled with the silly allegations within it, has added further proof to "my experience" that it's THE ATHEISTS that are "incapable" of leaving others "be".


quote:



I don't deny anyone their faith



No, you don't "deny"... you insult/disrespect via self-serving, silly allegations of "need" and being "scared".



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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/21/2012 10:42:04 AM   
Hotch


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Status: offline 		Fear of death. <- That's a period at the end.

Religion is the MOST humanistic trait of all and our most destructive. Hate your neighbor and always remember to say your prayers.

< Message edited by Hotch -- 5/21/2012 10:53:40 AM >

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/21/2012 11:04:17 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

And yet... it was NOT someone of faith who started this thread and alleged that "X scares Y" -- it was YOU... an Atheist. So said "peaceful co-existence" was disrupted by YOU... an Atheist -- not by someone of faith. Thus, the "need" to disrupt, yet once again, is from the Atheist -- not those of faith.


Such rude, accusatory, and ugly rants support FTP's suggestion that there is fear of other opinions among the faithful.

There's no need for such strident incivility. If you have a case to make try to make it like a gentleman. You make Jesus blush. Thank you.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 5/21/2012 11:07:50 AM >

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/21/2012 11:07:22 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA
Atheists idiotically argue that the mere existence of ANYTHING bad, ipso-facto, is proof there is no God.







Attachment (1)

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/21/2012 11:11:34 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA
Atheists idiotically argue that the mere existence of ANYTHING bad, ipso-facto, is proof there is no God.








On point, GS. No one made the argument conjured by the ranter.

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/21/2012 11:18:13 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
And the records of societies that have consciously tried to subtract religion from both public and private life--Soviet Russia, Communist China--are not encouraging.

Seems to me that had everything to do with what they were purposely replacing it with.

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