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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/25/2012 3:08:33 PM   
Moonhead


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Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		Atheism scares people because they're idiots.
can we declare this one dead, now?

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I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/25/2012 3:13:07 PM   
Marini


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Atheism scares people because they're idiots.
can we declare this one dead, now?


Not until it goes at least 30 more pages, for many around here this thread is just getting started.

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/25/2012 3:32:44 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

I think you see it too romantic, higher primates also have rules and laws and they enforce them, not so different from what we do.

Well I don't mind being thought a romantic in other circumstances, but not this one. Heh. Society's rules and laws have nothing to do with it. A sense of fairness has been found to be innate in even the youngest of infants. It is built into the brain and at the core of our nature. I don't buy the idea that we invented God as a political expedient, though I certainly wouldn't deny that religion has been used as one.

K.


Interesting comments by you. Here is a report in Scientific American of a study that found correlations among infants that point toward the early emergence of fairness. However, in this particular study the fairness seems to be a learned behavor. Would you share any information you have that fairness is "built into the brain and at the core of our nature," that it has been found to be innate? I am quite surprised to learn this. Thanks.

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/25/2012 3:36:59 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Atheism scares people because they're idiots.
can we declare this one dead, now?


Not until it goes at least 30 more pages, for many around here this thread is just getting started.


Exactly! It gives us something to talk about and gives me a chance to learn much more, so what's the harm? To Moonhead: hit the remote button and change the channel. Sheesh. Critics.

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/25/2012 3:40:21 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

A sense of fairness has been found to be innate in even the youngest of infants. It is built into the brain and at the core of our nature.

Fairness? Or selfishness, and rage that things don't go our way all the time?

Are you questioning the researchers' interpretation of their findings, or my representation of them?

K.

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/25/2012 4:03:46 PM   
GotSteel


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Status: offline 		Seems like those still aren't refutations, they're either off topic or excuses.

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/25/2012 4:15:18 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Seems like those still aren't refutations, they're either off topic or excuses.


Whatever. I'll go with off topic. Enjoy the rest of the thread.

IWYW,
- Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/25/2012 5:30:13 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Would you share any information you have that fairness is "built into the brain and at the core of our nature," that it has been found to be innate? I am quite surprised to learn this. Thanks.

Most of my links are still on my other, now-dead, computer. But here are a few to get you started, and you can follow-up further on your own if you're interested.

Fairness Expectations and Altruistic Sharing in 15-Month-Old Human Infants
Babies Know What's Fair
Sense of Justice Built into the Brain

More generally, many animals have been observed to display altruistic behavior and a sense of fairness.

Recent neurology work has also revealed that distantly related mammals such as whales and dolphins have the same structures in their brains that are thought to be responsible for empathy in humans. ~The Telegraph

This one is funny: Don't cheat the monkey!

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 5/25/2012 6:10:33 PM >

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/25/2012 5:34:05 PM   
ameha21


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Status: offline 		you can't have rational conversations with fantaics, they're allergic to intelligence

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/26/2012 1:26:28 AM   
erieangel


Posts: 2237
Joined: 6/19/2011
Status: offline 		I'm an agnostic. I used to be an atheist, but while in college I decided that there must be something greater than myself out there...somewhere...but I wasn't sure if I could call that being a god.

I had a rather unconventional religious upbringing. My mother's second husband insisted we all be baptized Catholic as that was his religion. My mother was also baptized, though she wavered for years between agnosticism and atheism. When mom and her second husband split I and my younger sister followed mom away from the Church while my older sister developed a strict Catholic faith. And then we had mom's brother who was a Baptist minister, who always felt the "need" to convert and save everybody in the family--until recently. In her later years, mom discovered Spiritualism and became a Spiritualist minister and medium. My younger sister has followed that religion pretty closely while I attended several churches and studied several religions over the years.

In college, I took philosophy of religion (hoping against hope that it would fulfill both the religion and philosophy requirement). Confusing and unenlightening to somebody actually in search of answers. That class offered nothing except arguments for the existence of God and equally valid argument disproving the existence of God. And all of it with a Christian flavor to it. I then took a course on world religions and thought it would just as unenlightening as it was being taught by a nun. It was one of the best courses I took. Though I still had few answers, something all of my previous reading had not taught me was finally drummed into me--that most religions of the world are more similar than they are different.

These days, I most lean toward the belief that there probably is a God or gods. Some infinite being (or group of infinite beings) who are actually too busy with the goings on in the vast universe to bother with what happens in our little corner of it. But honestly, I don't really care one way or the other. If the path to heaven (if there a heaven) is through belief, then I am doomed; if the path to heaven is through being a good person, then I have no problem no matter what I believe. I figure I discover my Fate when I die and until then I intend to enjoy whatever years I have on this plane of existence.

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/26/2012 1:44:40 AM   
niceguy88


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quote:

you can't have rational conversations with fantaics, they're allergic to intelligence
This is so on the ball.

It's those fanatical atheists that drive me up the wall, I get it you don't believe in a higher power but seriously no need to ram it down everyones throat or pick an argument with everyone who suggests they have a religion "live and let live" and if your religion or lack thereof doesn't accept "live and let live" then go "live and let die" somewhere else, preferably somewhere with a brick wall so you can try having a "constructive argument" with it and know what discussing anything with you is like! (Rant over)

I'm an atheist (agnostic when I buy a lottery ticket) and a hardline determinist and it scares the life out of me, anyone who suggests atheism is easy should think about it, I don't think theres anything scarier than the thought of death as the end of everything...


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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/26/2012 4:57:43 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy88

anyone who suggests atheism is easy should think about it, I don't think theres anything scarier than the thought of death as the end of everything.

In what way does Atheism require you to believe that consciousness cannot continue after death?

K.

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/26/2012 5:24:32 AM   
niceguy88


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quote:

In what way does Atheism require you to believe that consciousness cannot continue after death?

Interesting point K, but from a personal perspective, holding the position that there are no deities, I have yet to see a convincing argument put forward (and my ears are open to one) for the continuing of consciousness after brain death I have read some interesting time travel and string theory articles on the subject but not entirely convincing.

But your right Atheism is defined by the OED as "Disbelief in, or denial of, the existence of a god or gods". So in no way would it bar someone from believing in some form of life after death, for me though I just don't see it would love to be convinced otherwise though.

Have a good one.

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/26/2012 6:33:31 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy88

I have yet to see a convincing argument put forward (and my ears are open to one) for the continuing of consciousness after brain death

I don't have one either. But on the other hand, there is no good argument for it not continuing. Granted, there is no replicable experimental evidence that it does. But neither is there any that it doesn't. We do know, however, the profound effect that beliefs can have on what we allow ourselves to experience. So there is, at least, a good argument for not holding too firmly to the belief that it's impossible.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 5/26/2012 6:38:12 AM >

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/26/2012 7:40:01 AM   
Whiplashsmile4


Posts: 2305
Joined: 12/2/2008
Status: offline 		I would like to interject a spin ball upon the historical value and implications of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amun and it the ripples in the waters of Religion over time.

Also, might I point out that in Ancient times... back to the days when some humans were Gods and others were mere mortal slaves.

It's interesting in how slaves were breed in a similar fashion as Animals. The Breeding complete bloodlines of human beings. Also how The Gods went about breeding themselves. Not to mention the implications of Caste systems when it comes to people mating/breeding with one another. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste

We are so out of touch with ancient cultures, that it's not funny.
People get so wrapped in all this business of seeking for the truth,
while trying to hold onto some mental sense of everything being extremely supernatural.
Yet, the concept of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor may lead them to the very sense of understanding and truth they seek.

----------------

Some people may be wondering if I'm an atheist or not. Personally, I have more in common with an Atheist than I do many believers of many faiths. However, there is an Agnostic side for me. A deep spiritual side. My personal faith has come to rest in "The Spirit". So I'm not a true Atheist.

It's a little hard for me to ignore things, such as Alexander the Great taking a Detour into North Africa to visit a temple to find out if he was a Son of God. Alexander the Great, a Son of God? Some of you are probally going WTF right now.

History is full, packed full of many wonderful details. There are many wingnuts as well as scholars that write about this stuff. It pays at times to dig deeper and double check shit, to keep an open mind, read read, think and mentally connect the dots. Occam's Razor is a useful tool.

----------------

The Gods were other human beings, not aliens, not devine enities that popped out of nowhere from Dimension X (like a Sci-Fi movie). Sincerely, this is what I truly believe...everything else it outlandish.

---------------

I really don't know what to Make of the whole business of an After-life. Sincerely, I'm expecting to cease to exist when I die. (I'm now going to make a few jokes) At least I will finally rest in peace without ever having to deal with anymore bullshit, worries or troubles. In some ways, it will truly be heaven. True Peace at last. No conflicts with other human beings. No worries, No fears... and etc.. I'll be dead and cease to exist. I'll be free of all the Worldly ways of mankind. The world will continue onward, still filled with people and all it's bullshit. If I wanted to escape the worlds bullshit while still living, Well hell... I'd become a Monk and isolate myself from the rest of society's madness in a state of pure spiritual bliss. Now that would be Heaven on Earth. A peaceful corner of the world.

Instead, I'm going to live life and deal with whatever Hell the world dishes out at me. My mind will be finally set to peace when I die and go to the Grave. I really won't be disturbed about it either, because I'll be dead.

-------------

Now on the spirtual side of things... personally what's in the here and now... is truly the most amazing things. Out of the Universe, to be what I am? To have a conscious mind? WOW? to be able to move around and do things? This is truly an amazing thing when you think about it. That we are Alive like we are on this remarkable Planet. Truely, this is Spiritual and something to be valued. Treasured. In fact, it's so amazing we ourselves ponder with Amazement. Why are we here? How did we come to be? WOW, who created us? So many questions we ask... because yeah, we are exisiting in a rare state of being.

This shit ain't on Mars, The moon, nor Venus... at best mircoscopic life in those places. Not like Life that's here on Earth. This is it. The Amazing place we are at and in right now. As human beings, Alive, thinking and... we are able to create, build, think and explore.

The Here and Now, is extremely Spiritual. Earth itself is Supernatural. How much more supernatural do we need to make things? Clearly, the Natural is more like the other planets in our solar system, Galaxy and etc.

People had grand notions of life on Mars, the Moon and etc.. before space exploration. Just like people have grand notions of the afterlife and what happens when we die. Damn, what about how Grand things are here? Perhaps people would value it more, if they realized how Grand and precious it is.

There's some driving force behind life and I'm content with "The spirit".

I normally refrain from revealing my beliefs to 99% of the people I come into contact with.



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Жизнь ума ебет.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUzJI4Palq0

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/26/2012 9:34:42 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

In short, "what might I do in God's shoes?" and "what might God face in his/her/its own reality?" and so forth. Which is the complaint directed at Job: if you can't do the job yourself, you're probably underequipped to criticize it gainfully.


I think you missed the point of my criticism. I inserted it too slyly perhaps. I am not criticizing the outcome. And wouldn’t that be absurd, as Job found out? In the end, God wrecked Job’s world simply because He could. For me to criticize the creation would be to assume falsely that I have equality with the creator. The criticism posited by theodicy is aimed at those who promulgate their belief in a Perfect God to whom we owe a debt of good works or acceptance of grace. This alleged debt wrapped in the form of morality and obedience with the threat of eternal damnation has immediate impact on our politics. It allows State Legislatures to tell women what they can or cannot do with their bodies or prohibits the marriages of LGBT people. To my mind the formulation (belief) in this ultimate Authority doesn’t meet the tests of observed reality. That Authority is flawed and so are the claims of those who speak in the name of that flawed Authority. The States who impose their religious morality in the form of Laws that constrain their citizens have replaced the Crown in a false feudal lineage. No different than the old Sunday blue laws which prohibited alcohol sales on the Sabbath.



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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/26/2012 9:39:26 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

If you have been a good boy (Catholic "works") or if you have been chosen (Protestant "grace")


Yeah, the specifics vary from denomination to denomination, and are at times controversial inside a given denomination.

I tend to think that regardless of such concerns, the right thing is to be all you can be, including being a good boy, for the simple reason that the right thing is the right thing. I'm not concerned with "sin" (i.e. gross misses), or with "salvation", or whatever. Nor am I inclined to act a particular way to gain some supposed reward, or to avoid some supposed punishment


But, yassee, sin is defined by those who believe in the invisible God. As a consequence they feel free to set fire to abortion clinics, murder doctors, terrorize women, call for placing lesbians and “queers” behind electrified fencing, and in some countries riot against the depiction of their Messenger in a newspaper drawing or a painting. Your live and let live attitude is delusional, I think.

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/26/2012 10:19:50 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

I don't have one either. But on the other hand, there is no good argument for it not continuing.



I've heard of, or made up (I can't remember), the view that consciousness doesn't continue after the body's death, but that this doesn't matter because at some point near to the body's death the mind's experience of time becomes infinite.

Well, a fun idea to toy with now and then, anyway.

_____________________________

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/26/2012 5:17:09 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy88
But your right Atheism is defined by the OED as "Disbelief in, or denial of, the existence of a god or gods". So in no way would it bar someone from believing in some form of life after death, for me though I just don't see it would love to be convinced otherwise though.

Have a good one.


Actually, there are a number of religions that don't have gods and do have ghosts.

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RE: Why Atheism Scares People - 5/26/2012 9:32:55 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

The States who impose their religious morality in the form of Laws that constrain their citizens have replaced the Crown in a false feudal lineage. No different than the old Sunday blue laws which prohibited alcohol sales on the Sabbath.

Statutes against murder and theft also give divine commands the status of civil law. Is "religious morality" really the issue here?

K.

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