RE: Why Atheism Scares People (Full Version)

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GotSteel -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/16/2012 4:14:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini
Normally, we see more of these anti-christian threads around Christmas and Easter, but maybe there is a full moon this week.


It likely the war on women which has a number of the women around here talking about religion than the moment.




Marini -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/16/2012 4:34:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini
Normally, we see more of these anti-christian threads around Christmas and Easter, but maybe there is a full moon this week.


It likely the war on women which has a number of the women around here talking about religion than the moment.


NOW, I understand a lot more.

Steel, you actually MADE me take three steps back.

I have to admit, some of the nastiest and most mean spirited people hide
behind religion.
I am a believer and I have to admit that there are a lot of EVIL people, that attempt to oppress and hurt people and claim to be Christians.
Steel, many of these people are devils that hide behind the cloak of "Christianity".

I just thought of a thread I will start later, when I have more time.




Moonhead -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/16/2012 4:37:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Yachtie, your original claim was:
"As a Christian (absolutely non-denominational), I will have to say that I am not responsible (I'm assuming usage as in he's there because of me) for the the homeless guy sleeping on the sidewalk at night. And I survive quite well knowing that ..." (post #5)

Moonhead advanced a number of quotes from the Bible that suggest an interpretation at considerable variance to your claim above. Moonhead asked you:
"Precisely how does that absolve you of all responsibility for the homeless guy sleeping on the sidewalk at night?" (post # 6)

Your response was, in my view, an exercise in sophistry:
"If I beat the crap outta you, rob you, and leave you in the gutter - I am responsible for that.
If I were one who comes along, finds you beaten and robbed and do nothing where it's within my power and ability to do something I have shirked my responsibility.
To which are you referring within the context of being responsible? To which was I referring? Are they the same
? " (post #12)
Moonhead has posed a basic question, after offering persuasive evidence to rebut your original claim. Your response to this has been to attempt to obfuscate the notion of "responsibility" rather than address the points Moonhead raised. As things stand at the moment, you are losing this argument by default.

From where I sit, your response is wholly inadequate. Please respond directly to the question Moonhead put to you.



Sure. When within the context from which it was taken, which is what my sophistry[8|] was about.

It appears that you are refusing to address the question put to you in any meaningful way.

I can only conclude that you have conceded that Moonhead's question hit a spot and that your original claim : "As a Christian (absolutely non-denominational), I will have to say that I am not responsible (I'm assuming usage as in he's there because of me) for the the homeless guy sleeping on the sidewalk at night. And I survive quite well knowing that ..." has been abandoned by you as unsustainable.

I find it odd, but far from unusual, that such complacent smugness resides behind a nominally 'Christian' exterior. My understanding is that Christianity promotes itself as a religion of love.

It isn't even sophistry, as a matter of fact. The fact that the guy is homeless (regardless who put him on the sidewalk and whether or not you had any responsibility for that: that has bugger all to do with anything in Matthew or the rest of the New Testament) makes him any alleged Christian's responsibility, as Matthew points out. He's hungry and a stranger, which makes him a Christian's responsibility to feed and house. Yachtie can blather about context and me misunderstanding him all he likes, but he appears to have outed himself as a goat.




Yachtie -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/16/2012 5:21:45 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Yachtie, your original claim was:
"As a Christian (absolutely non-denominational), I will have to say that I am not responsible (I'm assuming usage as in he's there because of me) for the the homeless guy sleeping on the sidewalk at night. And I survive quite well knowing that ..." (post #5)

Moonhead advanced a number of quotes from the Bible that suggest an interpretation at considerable variance to your claim above. Moonhead asked you:
"Precisely how does that absolve you of all responsibility for the homeless guy sleeping on the sidewalk at night?" (post # 6)

Your response was, in my view, an exercise in sophistry:
"If I beat the crap outta you, rob you, and leave you in the gutter - I am responsible for that.
If I were one who comes along, finds you beaten and robbed and do nothing where it's within my power and ability to do something I have shirked my responsibility.
To which are you referring within the context of being responsible? To which was I referring? Are they the same
? " (post #12)
Moonhead has posed a basic question, after offering persuasive evidence to rebut your original claim. Your response to this has been to attempt to obfuscate the notion of "responsibility" rather than address the points Moonhead raised. As things stand at the moment, you are losing this argument by default.

From where I sit, your response is wholly inadequate. Please respond directly to the question Moonhead put to you.



Sure. When within the context from which it was taken, which is what my sophistry[8|] was about.

It appears that you are refusing to address the question put to you in any meaningful way.

I can only conclude that you have conceded that Moonhead's question hit a spot and that your original claim : "As a Christian (absolutely non-denominational), I will have to say that I am not responsible (I'm assuming usage as in he's there because of me) for the the homeless guy sleeping on the sidewalk at night. And I survive quite well knowing that ..." has been abandoned by you as unsustainable.

I find it odd, but far from unusual, that such complacent smugness resides behind a nominally 'Christian' exterior. My understanding is that Christianity promotes itself as a religion of love.


I'm neither refusing nor abandoning anything. If Moonhead wants an answer, ask the question with the context. Or suck wind.

Your tactics are transparent.




vincentML -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/16/2012 5:42:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

For me it means that we are alone in this Universe... we accept the death of consciousness as irrevocable and inevitable with the destruction of the brain.

I say 'we' but of course I am speaking for myself. I welcome any comments because my atheism is a work in progress...

Fair enough. But if you care to clarify, I don't see how not believing in a God or gods leads to either of the conclusions quoted above, or why you include them as part of what Atheism means for you. Atheism, by itself, does not impose on someone a belief system that must necessarily lead to the conclusions you associate with (your) Atheism. I don't see how they're connected. It feels like there's a piece missing.

K.




It is an answer to the question: if not that [a Creator] than what? You are correct that Atheism does not necessarily lead to my conclusions. It may lead to none at all for others. But that does not satisfy my need for an affirmative life philosophy.




tweakabelle -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/16/2012 6:27:33 AM)

quote:

Yachtie

quote:

tweakabelle
It appears that you are refusing to address the question put to you in any meaningful way.

I can only conclude that you have conceded that Moonhead's question hit a spot and that your original claim : "As a Christian (absolutely non-denominational), I will have to say that I am not responsible (I'm assuming usage as in he's there because of me) for the the homeless guy sleeping on the sidewalk at night. And I survive quite well knowing that ..." has been abandoned by you as unsustainable.

I find it odd, but far from unusual, that such complacent smugness resides behind a nominally 'Christian' exterior. My understanding is that Christianity promotes itself as a religion of love.



I'm neither refusing nor abandoning anything. If Moonhead wants an answer, ask the question with the context. Or suck wind.



Your obstinate refusal to answer Moonhead's straightforward question is far more eloquent than I could ever hope to be.




Yachtie -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/16/2012 6:35:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

Yachtie

quote:

tweakabelle
It appears that you are refusing to address the question put to you in any meaningful way.

I can only conclude that you have conceded that Moonhead's question hit a spot and that your original claim : "As a Christian (absolutely non-denominational), I will have to say that I am not responsible (I'm assuming usage as in he's there because of me) for the the homeless guy sleeping on the sidewalk at night. And I survive quite well knowing that ..." has been abandoned by you as unsustainable.

I find it odd, but far from unusual, that such complacent smugness resides behind a nominally 'Christian' exterior. My understanding is that Christianity promotes itself as a religion of love.



I'm neither refusing nor abandoning anything. If Moonhead wants an answer, ask the question with the context. Or suck wind.



Your obstinate refusal to answer Moonhead's straightforward question is far more eloquent than I could ever hope to be.



I see your choice is to suck wind. Enjoy.[8D]




fucktoyprincess -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/16/2012 7:23:16 AM)

I kindly ask the people who think this is an anti-Christian thread, to please, please, please go back to my original post and to please read the entire thread.

I started with the premise that many people need religion, so that religion is a part of human existence that will likely always be with us.

As the discussion proceeded I then expressed my viewpoint that I would like peaceful co-existence with those of religious faith (of whatever religion they happen to be). I support freedom of religion, but I also support the notion of a secular state.

My issue is that some religions, due to their religious doctrine, are actually at cross-purposes with peaceful co-existence. Peaceful co-existence only works if both sides are willing to let the other just be. Peaceful coexistence also presumes that the political and legal machinery of the country are not taken over by people who want to impose one particular religion's viewpoint.

My personal experience with some particular religions has been that they will not let me be. Either personally (through their proselytization efforts) or in my general life (through their influence on politics).

I am not anti-any religion. My mother is a deeply religious person, and if anyone messes with her ability to practice her own religion, including those who try to convert her to something else, it troubles me. Respect for religion also means respect for all religions not just one's own.




Yachtie -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/16/2012 9:09:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
My personal experience with some particular religions has been that they will not let me be. Either personally (through their proselytization efforts) or in my general life (through their influence on politics).


The politics of it is a major stumbling block, for all sides. Much of politics affects the social fabric which is central to both sides.

The battle shall rage on.




fucktoyprincess -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/16/2012 10:10:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
My personal experience with some particular religions has been that they will not let me be. Either personally (through their proselytization efforts) or in my general life (through their influence on politics).


The politics of it is a major stumbling block, for all sides. Much of politics affects the social fabric which is central to both sides.

The battle shall rage on.


Ah yes Yachtie. On this we can agree. The battle shall rage on. And that, fundamentally (pun intended) is truly at the core of my original post.




DaddySatyr -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/16/2012 11:41:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
I kindly ask the people who think this is an anti-Christian thread, to please, please, please go back to my original post and to please read the entire thread.


Not "anti-christian" so much as "anti-theist". Who else might an atheist "scare"?

I understand that you don't want this to degrade into a mud fight but, please don't try to say that you expected theists to not answer?



Peace and comfort,



Michael




Moonhead -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/16/2012 11:54:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie
I'm neither refusing nor abandoning anything. If Moonhead wants an answer, ask the question with the context.

The context alters Christ's advice as parsed through Matthew how?
If you are unwilling to feed and house the homeless guy sleeping on the pavement, how can you claim to be a sheep rather than a goat?
That passage is the only advice on the requirements for Heaven in the whole of the new testament, iirc.
God's law doesn't apply to you because it isn't your fault Christ's brother is starving in the gutter? Is that what you're arguing?
Define the fucking context you're trying to use as a get out clause. It may stand up to your own scruples, but will ceiling cat tolerate it?




LadyHibiscus -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/16/2012 11:57:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
I kindly ask the people who think this is an anti-Christian thread, to please, please, please go back to my original post and to please read the entire thread.


Not "anti-christian" so much as "anti-theist". Who else might an atheist "scare"?

I understand that you don't want this to degrade into a mud fight but, please don't try to say that you expected theists to not answer?



Peace and comfort,



Michael



That's not what she was saying at all, Michael. And I have many Jewish friends who do not give the same reaction to my atheism. The united states are predominantly Christian, and the militant Christian voices are the loudest.





Moonhead -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/16/2012 12:00:14 PM)

And the voices with the least interest in Christ's message, in my experience.




fucktoyprincess -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/16/2012 1:50:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
I kindly ask the people who think this is an anti-Christian thread, to please, please, please go back to my original post and to please read the entire thread.


Not "anti-christian" so much as "anti-theist". Who else might an atheist "scare"?

I understand that you don't want this to degrade into a mud fight but, please don't try to say that you expected theists to not answer?



Peace and comfort,



Michael



I expected answers, but to the points that I raised. I do not believe in god, but I have said repeatedly that I am in favor of freedom of religion. So I am not anti-theist as you state.

My mother is deeply religious. Please explain to me what gives other theists the right to tell her that her religion and god are wrong, and that she can only be saved by converting to another religion (especially when her religion is OLDER than the religions which seem to demand her conversion). Please explain to me why that type of behavior is not "anti-theist". Please explain to me how that type of behavior supports peaceful co-existence. I just ask other theists of whatever persuasion to leave my religious mother who believes in god, alone. But they won't. They won't, because they can't. Their religion demands that they proselytize. So how exactly, are my mother, who believes in god, and dogmatic theists of other persuasions supposed to co-exist?




LadyHibiscus -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/16/2012 1:52:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

And the voices with the least interest in Christ's message, in my experience.


I utterly agree with you. When asked if I was Christian, I have answered "No, I just try to behave as one". Stunned looks in response.




Marini -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/16/2012 1:55:53 PM)

quote:

I expected answers, but to the points that I raised. I do not believe in god, but I have said repeatedly that I am in favor of freedom of religion. So I am not anti-theist as you state.

My mother is deeply religious. Please explain to me what gives other theists the right to tell her that her religion and god are wrong, and that she can only be saved by converting to another religion (especially when her religion is OLDER than the religions which seem to demand her conversion). Please explain to me why that type of behavior is not "anti-theist". Please explain to me how that type of behavior supports peaceful co-existence. I just ask other theists of whatever persuasion to leave my religious mother who believes in god, alone. But they won't. They won't, because they can't. Their religion demands that they proselytize. So how exactly, are my mother, who believes in god, and dogmatic theists of other persuasions supposed to co-exist?


As someone that has lives in the big city, I am approached by all manner of people proselytizing, I tell them I am not interested and keep it moving.
I would suggest your mother and everyone else do the same thing.
I can't stop them and it just doesn't mean that much to me.
People are always asking to me read literature or join something or support this cause, this issue, on and on and on.

I normally tell them, I am not interested, and I
keep it moving.
I guess I am not seeing what the point, the issue, or the big deal is.
I seriously, seriously doubt that people prone to this behavior, are reading this message board, so other than to vent, what is the point here?

As always to each their own.
Namaste




fucktoyprincess -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/16/2012 2:02:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

And the voices with the least interest in Christ's message, in my experience.


I utterly agree with you. When asked if I was Christian, I have answered "No, I just try to behave as one". Stunned looks in response.


Again, some of the major religions in the world do not operate from a premise "as long as you do good your soul will be saved". They operate from the premise of "as long as you believe in our god your soul will be saved". So the focus of proselytizing becomes about extracting the belief instead of preaching about how to live, or by living by example. Even if I live my life in the best way possible and commit no sin as defined by every religion on the face of the planet, some religions doom my soul to hell or hell's equivalent simply because I do not believe. And what saddens me more is that those same religions also doom my mother's soul to hell simply because she believes in a different god.

The issue is not just between believers and non-believers. After all the non-believers are a minuscule less than 3% of the population. The political issues that arise are because a large number of believers are not respectful of other believers. Peaceful co-existence remains an unobtainable goal when some religions believe they are the only way.





fucktoyprincess -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/16/2012 2:05:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

quote:

I expected answers, but to the points that I raised. I do not believe in god, but I have said repeatedly that I am in favor of freedom of religion. So I am not anti-theist as you state.

My mother is deeply religious. Please explain to me what gives other theists the right to tell her that her religion and god are wrong, and that she can only be saved by converting to another religion (especially when her religion is OLDER than the religions which seem to demand her conversion). Please explain to me why that type of behavior is not "anti-theist". Please explain to me how that type of behavior supports peaceful co-existence. I just ask other theists of whatever persuasion to leave my religious mother who believes in god, alone. But they won't. They won't, because they can't. Their religion demands that they proselytize. So how exactly, are my mother, who believes in god, and dogmatic theists of other persuasions supposed to co-exist?


As someone that has lives in the big city, I am approached by all manner of people proselytizing, I tell them I am not interested and keep it moving.
I would suggest your mother and everyone else do the same thing.
I can't stop them and it just doesn't mean that much to me.
People are always asking to me read literature or join something or support this cause, this issue, on and on and on.

I normally tell them, I am not interested, and I
keep it moving.
I guess I am not seeing what the point, the issue, or the big deal is.
I seriously, seriously doubt that people prone to this behavior, are reading this message board, so other than to vent, what is the point here?

As always to each their own.
Namaste


You are entitled to your opinion, but other theists telling my mother she will go to hell does not sit well with me. It was just Mother's Day this weekend, and I am allowed to defend my aging, and ailing mother. Why should she have to be the one to tell the others to go away. Why can't they leave her alone? Perhaps this is not a big deal to you, but maybe it is to other people. Why should my mother have to deal with this? And why should she have to deal with the politics that come from one religion imposing its will on others? There are many policies that she supports that do not contradict her religious beliefs, and yet, she is told by others that these things should be illegal due to "moral" reasons. My mother is a theist. My mother is a believer. Why do other theists have the right to tell her she is wrong. And why do other theists feel they have the right to shape the political landscape so that only their way is allowed?

I agree with your sentiment "to each his own". But that is exactly what I am discussing here. How can there be peaceful co-existence when some groups feel they are obligated to convert others. And some religions, like Islam, believe that those who do not convert, should be killed. And killing infidels in Islam grants them access to their version of heaven. Again, just explain to me how we create "to each his own" when some religions do not believe in "to each his own"?




Marini -> RE: Why Atheism Scares People (5/16/2012 2:11:08 PM)

One thing about it, if/when you find out WHY these people must do it, please tell all of us.

I have met my share of Jehovah's Witnesses, and according to them, they HAVE to go out and try to convert others, it is part of what they believe.
I believe they have to do this type of thing in order to be one.

Other than that, I don't have a clue.

Why do the Jehovah Witness practice door to door Evangelism




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