Reflections on the product of countless millenia of Masters & slaves in history & what it means now (Full Version)

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Pyramus -> Reflections on the product of countless millenia of Masters & slaves in history & what it means now (5/15/2012 7:56:20 AM)

Recently, I received a PM from a married woman who wondered 'why' she felt the way she did about submission.

For me, the answer is in my journal - but it all boils down to the fact that we humans are at the same time herd animals and victims of the wiring in our brains.

Large herd or small, someone leads the pack - while the rest follow - and - at the same time, we're predisposed to one side or the other.

Every member of the herd has is place, except those who rebel, who are cast outward. Given that, I suspect many of us have both Master and slave in our bloodlines. For example, it has been estimated that half of the Roman population of the old empire, were chattel. Given the natural pairing of a man and a woman, slave or otherwise, I suspect many of us are descendent of children born of that situation. Likewise with anyone who traces roots back to South America, where the triple mix is between Iberian, African, and indigenous peoples. Certainly the Gauls (e.g., French) and Barbarians (e.g., Germans) and Celts (e.g., Irish) all raped while they pillaged and plundered. Would we not be the natural descendants of such "unions'?

Personally, I read all I can on historical treatment of slaves, from Aristotle's theory of natural slavery to rules on the treatment of the black slaves of the American south. I try to learn from the experience of entire cultures enslaved by others. It is an interesting read - and it's truth more so than fiction.

At the moment, given these reflections, I feel it is quite natural for some of us to be wired as Masters while others are naturally wired to submit. One serves to please - the other employs for pleasure.

It's all in a whirl in my brain - but it makes sense - at the obscure level.

Have any of you mused similarly?




OsideGirl -> RE: Reflections on the product of countless millenia of Masters & slaves in history & what it means now (5/15/2012 8:04:08 AM)

Just because someone was forced into slavery does not mean they were submissive. Just because someone was born into privilege and owned slaves does not make them leaders.




Whenready -> RE: Reflections on the product of countless millenia of Masters & slaves in history & what it means now (5/15/2012 8:26:28 AM)

I don't think it means anything now. My forebears for generations were miners. I feel not the slightest inclination to dig the garden.




submaleuk12 -> RE: Reflections on the product of countless millenia of Masters & slaves in history & what it means now (5/15/2012 8:28:44 AM)

What if someone is born with a leadership and strong personality but are forced by parents or older siblings to be submissive?




JeffBC -> RE: Reflections on the product of countless millenia of Masters & slaves in history & what it means now (5/15/2012 9:04:04 AM)

In general I like to look at humans from the standpoint of an outside biologist. But when I do so, I try not to carry all my preconceived notions of my own society and viewpoint in with me. One of the most obvious things is that in the real world things do not line up as neatly as the nice, tidy little BDSM boxes would seem to suggest. In general I think trying to apply any highly sophisticated concept like "master" or "slave" to something as fundamental as "human wiring" is likely to be flawed.




littlewonder -> RE: Reflections on the product of countless millenia of Masters & slaves in history & what it means now (5/15/2012 10:07:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: submaleuk12

What if someone is born with a leadership and strong personality but are forced by parents or older siblings to be submissive?


No one can force you. You either will do it or you won't.

Personally, for me, while I'm a submissive personality, I chose to be Master's slave and my personality was formed not by my inheritable nature but by environmental factors that formed over a period of time just like everyone else.

I don't believe in being born that way but that's me. I simply feel we are shaped by our environment.




LadyHibiscus -> RE: Reflections on the product of countless millenia of Masters & slaves in history & what it means now (5/15/2012 10:17:24 AM)

I am the daughter of an ethnic household ruled by strong women. I was raised to serve. I was never submissive, in any sense. I wind up in leadership positions because that's what's easiest for me. I would rather be in charge and get it wrong, than perpetuate someone else's mistakes because I was 'following orders'. That doesnt mean that there arent people and situations that put me lower in the hierarchy.

My family is from Italy, and my genetic heritage is very mixed, I am sure. I'm not going to blame or rexplain my current life on my ancestors.




DarkSteven -> RE: Reflections on the product of countless millenia of Masters & slaves in history & what it means now (5/15/2012 10:57:24 AM)

I look to my present life for answers about me, not to generations past.




kalikshama -> RE: Reflections on the product of countless millenia of Masters & slaves in history & what it means now (5/15/2012 12:02:49 PM)

I'm having a flashback to this thread: Gorean and ancient cultures slavery rape and the after effects




subbyinlosangele -> RE: Reflections on the product of countless millenia of Masters & slaves in history & what it means now (5/15/2012 12:37:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pyramus

Recently, I received a PM from a married woman who wondered 'why' she felt the way she did about submission.

For me, the answer is in my journal - but it all boils down to the fact that we humans are at the same time herd animals and victims of the wiring in our brains.

Large herd or small, someone leads the pack - while the rest follow - and - at the same time, we're predisposed to one side or the other.

Every member of the herd has is place, except those who rebel, who are cast outward. Given that, I suspect many of us have both Master and slave in our bloodlines. For example, it has been estimated that half of the Roman population of the old empire, were chattel. Given the natural pairing of a man and a woman, slave or otherwise, I suspect many of us are descendent of children born of that situation. Likewise with anyone who traces roots back to South America, where the triple mix is between Iberian, African, and indigenous peoples. Certainly the Gauls (e.g., French) and Barbarians (e.g., Germans) and Celts (e.g., Irish) all raped while they pillaged and plundered. Would we not be the natural descendants of such "unions'?

Personally, I read all I can on historical treatment of slaves, from Aristotle's theory of natural slavery to rules on the treatment of the black slaves of the American south. I try to learn from the experience of entire cultures enslaved by others. It is an interesting read - and it's truth more so than fiction.

At the moment, given these reflections, I feel it is quite natural for some of us to be wired as Masters while others are naturally wired to submit. One serves to please - the other employs for pleasure.

It's all in a whirl in my brain - but it makes sense - at the obscure level.

Have any of you mused similarly?



I find your musings a little farfetched and simplistic, to be frank. People are more complex than you seem to give them credit for, and I find that BDSM activities are often a counterbalance to other parts of a person's life, rather than a manifestation of some uniform brain wiring. I really doubt that ancient bloodlines play a huge influence in a person's BDSM activities today. I'd say the influences are more recent and less obscure.




Lockit -> RE: Reflections on the product of countless millenia of Masters & slaves in history & what it means now (5/15/2012 3:28:39 PM)

I want to know who the married wench is pm'ing guys that make them think they need to come teach the rest of us... I want to kick her ass. Stupid ass bitch! [8|]




MasterSlaveLA -> RE: Reflections on the product of countless millenia of Masters & slaves in history & what it means now (5/15/2012 3:36:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

I want to know who the married wench is pm'ing guys that make them think they need to come teach the rest of us... I want to kick her ass. Stupid ass bitch!



OH... MY... GAWD!!!  [sm=rofl.gif] ROTFLMAO!!!





BurntKitty -> RE: Reflections on the product of countless millenia of Masters & slaves in history & what it means now (5/15/2012 3:42:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pyramus

<snip> Barbarians (e.g., Germans) and Celts (e.g., Irish) all raped while they pillaged and plundered. Would we not be the natural descendants of such "unions'?



Thank you for such simplicity of logic. It explains so much for me. As a product of barbaric German, pillaging Irish and Vikings of Norway, now I know why I must plunder the shoe stores.


[image]http://chzhistoriclols.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/funny-pictures-history-im-sorry-barbara-i-simply-cant-come-to-the-party-tonight-none-of-my-shoes-matches-my-outfit.jpg[/image]




catize -> RE: Reflections on the product of countless millenia of Masters & slaves in history & what it means now (5/15/2012 3:45:22 PM)

[:D]


In my intimate relationships I like to submit to a man's authority. The rest of the time, at work, with my family, I am a leader. Few of us are all one thing or the other. A slave may submit to their master or mistress, but he/she may be regarded as a leader within the BDSM world of slaves/submissives.




seekingOwnertoo -> RE: Reflections on the product of countless millenia of Masters & slaves in history & what it means now (5/15/2012 6:42:30 PM)

Doesn't the German Philosopher Hegel address this very question in his Phenomenology of Spirit?

If I recall correctly, his conclusion is the the Free Person is the Perfect Synthesis of both Master and slave ...

Master, to the point of being able to make rational decisions about living ones own life ...

slave to the extent one must be productive and useful in work.

And if I also recall ... the Master died out from lack of work .. while the slave thrived because they had invented and mastered technology ...

So if he is close to right, we must all be descended fron slaves in some way


[:D] [:D] [:D] Sorry you asked, right?




kitkat105 -> RE: Reflections on the product of countless millenia of Masters & slaves in history & what it means now (5/15/2012 9:43:22 PM)

Most people don't really know their geneology so can't really use that as an explanation of human behaviour. I'm wary of throwing the "evolution" word out there.. but I think in some regards we've come a long way with how we conduct ourselves socially.

My Mum is a SAHM, with my Dad being head of the house. That did not have an influence on me because even though Dad was the breadwinner, Mum well and truly runs the show.




ClassAct2006 -> RE: Reflections on the product of countless millenia of Masters & slaves in history & what it means now (5/16/2012 12:55:07 AM)

My work is not related to my sexuality. I have always been submissive, long before I developed my rather successful career. You can be chairman of BP and gay or a submissive man or an alpha male dominant man (or woman for that matter). I am so many people's rock, touch stone, example, helper in times of crisis. I am not your little girl lost with a drug problem and no job who needs to be fixed by a man whose ego thus is helped by his being her saviour. Yet I am very submissive and have been so in every personal relationship with a man ever. Of course many men cannot make me feel submissive as they are so much worse than I am at most thing except perhaps brute force and even there I am pretty strong but that is a separate issue.




kittenheels43 -> RE: Reflections on the product of countless millenia of Masters & slaves in history & what it means now (5/16/2012 1:05:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Whenready

I don't think it means anything now. My forebears for generations were miners. I feel not the slightest inclination to dig the garden.


the forum needs a 'like' button, lmao




DesFIP -> RE: Reflections on the product of countless millenia of Masters & slaves in history & what it means now (5/16/2012 6:12:22 PM)

The fact that my forebears were overrun and enslaved a couple of thousand years ago has nothing to do with how I identify. That was the result of living at a crossroads that everyone coveted. It in no way has become genetic.




NuevaVida -> RE: Reflections on the product of countless millenia of Masters & slaves in history & what it means now (5/16/2012 8:41:58 PM)

Well my grandfather on my mother's side felt like a slave to Francisco Franco, Spain's former king, and my grandfather on my father's side was a politician in California. Guess that would leave me a little confused [8D]

Seriously, though, I don't buy it. As has been said, humans are just more complex than that. And as the youngest of 5 kids, there was no forcing of submission. I'm the executor of my parents' estate, and their power of attorney (well just my mom now, since dad died). I manage mom's money. I make all the major family decisions. I run programs at work. And I kneel at my man's feet.

As Jeff said, this has to do with who I am in the present, not my ancestors, or even recent generations above me. It's about who and what I choose to be.




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