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RE: another wrongful execution - 5/15/2012 7:03:18 PM

erieangel

Posts: 2237
Joined: 6/19/2011
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Yes, some crimes demand it. However, I'd rather have have murderers walking the streets than put another innocent person to death in this country.

Miscarriages of justices happen every day in this country. Take Marjorie Deahl Armstrong, the woman who was convicted in the Brian Wells neck bombing case. She had also been convicted for murder in the '80s and spent only 5 years in Muncy, the PA state woman's prison. A couple years before Brian was murdered, Marj's husband died under mysterious circumstances and before the authorities even thought to investigate his death, she'd had him cremated. And a couple months after Brian's deaths Marj's live-in boy friend was found dead in one of Marj's homes. She was not charged with his murder, though she was a suspect and continues to be one. The focus had always been to get her tried and convicted for the Wells murder. But she wasn't convicted in that case, either. She was convicted of conspiracy to commit murder murder, conspiracy bank robbery and a few other charges. And that whole plan was hatched so that Marjorie could get her hands on some cash to pay somebody to kill her father so that she could claim the millions her mother had left her to father. Marj was an only child.
What Marj didn't know was that her father had given nearly everything away.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 21

RE: another wrongful execution - 5/16/2012 2:44:31 AM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

And imagine how much of a deterrent it would be if a convicted felon was put to death within two years of sentencing, as opposed to 14 years. After all, the constitution does guarantee a speedy trial, there's no reason the sentencing can't be carried out just as fast.

Do you have any idea how many more innocent people would be murdered in your name under that plan?

(in reply to subrob1967)

Post #: 22

RE: another wrongful execution - 5/16/2012 3:59:54 AM

Mupainurpleasure

Posts: 393
Joined: 4/12/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

And imagine how much of a deterrent it would be if a convicted felon was put to death within two years of sentencing, as opposed to 14 years. After all, the constitution does guarantee a speedy trial, there's no reason the sentencing can't be carried out just as fast.

Do you have any idea how many more innocent people would be murdered in your name under that plan?

of course that would require all murderers be serial killer....would you be willing to die for the death penalty? You are after all asking others who are innocent to die for it

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 23

RE: another wrongful execution - 5/16/2012 6:06:21 AM

Fightdirecto

Posts: 1101
Joined: 8/3/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
I say that we have a death penalty, and should have a death penalty, because some crimes demand it.

Would you agree or disagree that if a prosecuting attorney knowingly commits prosecutorial misconduct in a trial where the maximum penalty the accused can receive is execution, the prosecuting attorney should be put to death?

Would you agree or disagree that if a police officer knowingly commits perjury to assist the prosecution in in a trial where the maximum penalty the accused can receive is execution, the police officer should be put to death?

Would you agree or disagree that if a police lab technician knowingly falsifies lab results to assist the prosecution in a trial where the maximum penalty the accused can receive is execution, the police lab technician should be put to death?

I would agree to the death penalty if those three instances were included in crimes punishable by death. These crimes demand it too.

< Message edited by Fightdirecto -- 5/16/2012 6:07:33 AM >

_____________________________

"I swore never to be silent whenever and wherever human beings endure suffering and humiliation. We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.””
- Ellie Wiesel

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 24

RE: another wrongful execution - 5/16/2012 6:47:32 AM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
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Sounds like a conspiracy to commit murder to me, Fightdirecto. Of course, it would need a bit more than a research project by law school students who were still in diapers when the crime was committed, to meet the burden of proof.

I'd also like to see the death penalty on the table for the cops who beat Kelly Thomas to death.

(in reply to Fightdirecto)

Post #: 25

RE: another wrongful execution - 5/17/2012 6:23:44 AM

thompsonx

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Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

That is horrible, but, this is not 1989. We have ways of being 100% positive who done it, and, if that is the case, they should die.

Describe these ways of being 100% certain.

I'm betting you don't have any idea what you're talking about TBH.

DNA, for one.

I personally know of 2 folks who have been murdered where there is no doubt about who took their lives. DNA, witnesses and confession, along with much other evidence gathered from the crime scene.

These 3 killers are still alive because of the wonderful laws decide what kind of murder qualifies as a death penalty case. Amazing to me, cause all the victims are dead the same.

I know this is an emotional issue, and I am not going to change my views on it, nor do I expect you or anyone else to, but please, do not tell me I do not know what I am talking about. I know more than I ever wanted too.

If you have not heard of dr. kerry mullis you might want to google him...(he is the guy that they gave the nobel prize in chemistry to for discovering dna).
According to him dna can only exclude.
According to him two dna samples that exactly match each other do not mean that they cae from the same person.

(in reply to JstAnotherSub)

Post #: 26

RE: another wrongful execution - 5/17/2012 6:26:49 AM

thompsonx

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Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

And imagine how much of a deterrent it would be if a convicted felon was put to death within two years of sentencing, as opposed to 14 years. After all, the constitution does guarantee a speedy trial, there's no reason the sentencing can't be carried out just as fast.

It would appear that all of those who have been cleared in more than two years you are in favor of murdering. Why would an alleged cop be interested in murdering innocent people?
Are all cops this sort of mindless mass murderers or is it just you?

(in reply to subrob1967)

Post #: 27

RE: another wrongful execution - 5/17/2012 6:30:35 AM

thompsonx

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Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

If true, then what an awful tragedy, and miscarriage of justice. Even if it is accurate though, it won't change my thoughts on the death penalty - some crimes demand it.

I have never heard a crime demand anything.
I have heard the self-rightous demand murder in the name of the state and cloke it in sanctimonious rhetoric.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 28

RE: another wrongful execution - 5/17/2012 5:13:06 PM

Fightdirecto

Posts: 1101
Joined: 8/3/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Why would an alleged cop be interested in murdering innocent people?

If a police officer knew that he/she might get promoted from Patrolman to Sergeant with a subsequent raise in pay and benefits if he arrests more people that get convicted, it might lead a morally weak police officer to commit perjury ("testiylie") in order to get an innocent person convicted.

If an assistant District Attorney knows that he/she will be considered for promotion with a subsequent raise in pay and benefits, or selected by his/her political party to be their next candidate for State Representative/State Senator/Mayor, etc., it might lead a morally weak District Attorney to commit prosecutorial misconduct (i.e. hide or destroy evidence of the accused's innocence, suborn perjury, etc.).

_____________________________

"I swore never to be silent whenever and wherever human beings endure suffering and humiliation. We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.””
- Ellie Wiesel

(in reply to thompsonx)

Post #: 29

RE: another wrongful execution - 5/17/2012 5:22:25 PM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Why would an alleged cop be interested in murdering innocent people?

If a police officer knew that he/she might get promoted from Patrolman to Sergeant with a subsequent raise in pay and benefits if he arrests more people that get convicted, it might lead a morally weak police officer to commit perjury ("testiylie") in order to get an innocent person convicted.

Or pressure from a state's attorney with political aspirations might lead a couple of sherrif's deputies to make up testimony about a suspect relating a dream including details of the crime not known to the public.

Nah that would never happen:
http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/news_columnists_ezorn/2005/11/backgrounder_th.html

(in reply to Fightdirecto)

Post #: 30

RE: another wrongful execution - 5/17/2012 6:29:39 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

Say, Fightdirecto, since you are so into holding people in the system accountable, where would you stand on making defense attorneys automatic accessories to any crime a client commits after being successfully represented?

(in reply to Fightdirecto)

Post #: 31

RE: another wrongful execution - 5/17/2012 7:40:22 PM

kalikshama

Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
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FD's scenario wants to hold people accountable for their own misconduct.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 32

RE: another wrongful execution - 5/18/2012 2:44:53 AM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Say, Fightdirecto, since you are so into holding people in the system accountable, where would you stand on making defense attorneys automatic accessories to any crime a client commits after being successfully represented?

So you oppose the "guilty" getting effective assistance of counsel? Why not just do away with trials and just go ahead and round up the "usual suspects" after every crime and punish the one the cops decide did it?

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 33

RE: another wrongful execution - 5/18/2012 6:14:37 AM

thompsonx

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Why would an alleged cop be interested in murdering innocent people?

If a police officer knew that he/she might get promoted from Patrolman to Sergeant with a subsequent raise in pay and benefits if he arrests more people that get convicted, it might lead a morally weak police officer to commit perjury ("testiylie") in order to get an innocent person convicted.

If an assistant District Attorney knows that he/she will be considered for promotion with a subsequent raise in pay and benefits, or selected by his/her political party to be their next candidate for State Representative/State Senator/Mayor, etc., it might lead a morally weak District Attorney to commit prosecutorial misconduct (i.e. hide or destroy evidence of the accused's innocence, suborn perjury, etc.).

In both of your scenarios you have aptly discribed prosecutable criminal behaviour. Are the foxes guarding the hen house?

(in reply to Fightdirecto)

Post #: 34

RE: another wrongful execution - 5/18/2012 6:19:21 AM

thompsonx

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Say, Fightdirecto, since you are so into holding people in the system accountable, where would you stand on making defense attorneys automatic accessories to any crime a client commits after being successfully represented?

Defense attourneys may be prosecuted if it can be proved that they know their client is guilty and do not disclose that information to the court. That is why ethical lawyers (yes I realize that is a contradiction in terms) warn their clients in the very first interview what they want to hear from them and what they do not want to hear and why.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 35

RE: another wrongful execution - 5/18/2012 5:09:28 PM

truckinslave

Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline

quote:

Even one wrongful execution is reason enough for the death penalty to be outlawed.

No it's not.
Life is full of risks.

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to defiantbadgirl)

Post #: 36

RE: another wrongful execution - 5/18/2012 5:12:36 PM

seeksolder2

Posts: 1
Joined: 5/8/2012
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ditto,

(in reply to truckinslave)

Post #: 37

RE: another wrongful execution - 5/18/2012 5:40:09 PM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

Even one wrongful execution is reason enough for the death penalty to be outlawed.

No it's not.
Life is full of risks.

Will you volunteer the person you love most to be the next innocent person to be executed? Why not?

(in reply to truckinslave)

Post #: 38

RE: another wrongful execution - 5/19/2012 10:27:40 AM

AngelOfSilence

Posts: 119
Joined: 5/8/2012
Status: offline

quote:

I say that we have a death penalty, and should have a death penalty, because some crimes demand it.

Oddly enough, that is often said.

_____________________________

My lack of concern for your sensibilities knows no bounds.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 39

RE: another wrongful execution - 5/19/2012 12:30:58 PM

stellauk

Posts: 1360
Status: offline

If the whittling down continues I'd put serious money on Texas being the last US state to abolish the death penalty which would allow for a justice system more suited to a modern civilized society in the 21st century.

As it stands the death penalty is an outdated form of retributive justice which has no place in a modern society. Retribution isn't justice. Not even close. You cannot achieve justice with the death penalty.

You can't because it shifts the emphasis in any trial away from where it should be - establishing the truth of what actually happened during a crime and the impact suffered by the victim and their family - to trying to decide whether the accused or the criminal should live or die. Truth is relative and in any capital trial it almost invariably gets skewed.

Furthermore it's all arbitrary. I mean, who gets to decide which crimes are heinous and which aren't? Public decency? Public opinion?

In the case of a homicide what does it matter anyway? Someone is still dead and the relatives and loved ones are going to be grieving that loss to the end of their life. There is always serious impact. Sticking someone on Death Row isn't solving anything, but only compounding the problem because now instead of one grieving family you now have two and none of these people have committed any crimes.

Then you have the costs of all those appeals. What is it? In some cases $3 million? That's an awful lot of public money being spent on one person. A criminal. Even if you never worked in your entire life and lived off welfare you probably wouldn't even come close to that amount. What's more that $3 million could probably make much easier for many more people who are far more deserving and in need.

Like the victims for example. There's a lot of discussions on both sides of the death penalty debate but hardly ever do you hear a term such as 'victim impact'. It's all well and good when the pro-death penalty people are wielding the details and victims as a weapon to justify the execution, but does anybody really care about what they have had to go through as a result of having their loved one murdered?

As for people who support the death penalty because it costs 'taxpayer's' money to keep them in jail... oh please. Give me a break. Schools cost money, hospitals cost money, the police cost money, maintaining the roads for you to drive on cost money, and you don't get modern civilization 'on the cheap'. Prisons are there for a reason and that's precisely where murderers belong. They have no place in society.

The US death penalty is now nothing more than hypocrisy. US suppliers have run out of sodium thiopental so states have to look abroad to get supplies.

Yet drug trafficking across international borders into the US carries a Federal death penalty.

_____________________________

Usually when you have all the answers for something nobody is interested in listening.

(in reply to erieangel)

Post #: 40

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