Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: another wrongful execution


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: another wrongful execution Page: <<   < prev  1 2 3 [4]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: another wrongful execution - 5/21/2012 5:41:40 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

You wish to invoke the power of the social compact, and mischaracterize it as a duty to protect citizens, rather than to maintain the social fabric, but only after you mock it, by dismissing the transformative power of the ritual.


Rich, if the ritual were so transformative it would not be done in secrecy, hidden away from our view.

Vincent


(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: another wrongful execution - 5/21/2012 6:06:47 AM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline
I'm wondering what 'transformative' means in this context, too. In what way, and how?

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 5/21/2012 6:07:05 AM >


_____________________________

http://www.domme-chronicles.com


(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: another wrongful execution - 5/21/2012 6:09:25 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
Considering how prejudice and slanted the system is against black men......being ok with it is just as prejudice.

The pro-deathers wouldn`t be so caviler and arrogant about killing innocent people if they or a loved one were in a similar situation.

Acknowledging that yeah ok,some innocent people will die but that`s a price "they"(the arrogant pro-deather)are willing to pay only clarifies the depth of their depravity.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 5/21/2012 6:10:09 AM >


_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: another wrongful execution - 5/21/2012 7:35:38 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

He will probably be studied in a psychiatric maximum security facility for the rest of his life,
...
A main concern of many people here, is learning what caused this to happen, and to address those causative factors.

I will not permit the State of Norway to kill its own citizens. That's not an authority I will confer on my state under any circumstance.




Thanks for your patience, Aswad. Today wasn't quite the bitch it might have been.

The sadistic, and slightly evil smart-ass in me demands I suggest dissection and chemical analysis of his remains for the study methodology. But that's just me, and while I joke, the idea of a criminal being sentenced to medical experimentation troubles me more than executing them does. There are certain situations and circumstances where I'm quite willing to have the government hold the power to end the life of a human. I'm not so ok with them having the power to dehumanize someone into a lab rat. I don't think that's precisely what you meant, but how do you study something without testing, once in a while?

A man developed a psychosis, it took him to a very evil place in his mind, he made a choice to act in accordance, and many innocents are dead. What test are we going to come up with to determine the choices people may make? Can a society that then tracks down people who don't think right for further testing still call itself free? I see that as the more tyrannical path. Government may intrude on our money, and our behavior, and yes, have the power to take a life, but the to start ruling on what may exist in our minds, lest we make the wrong choices? That's the one I'm militantly unwilling to confer.

We also discussed this a bit in the aftermath of the attack, and you expressed a thought that this man might just somehow die rather quickly in prison. Here, it's quite clear that we are much in agreement on the fate this man should meet in response to his crimes, but not on where the punishment should come from. I expect it from the established social order, you would like to trust in fate, or leave it to the hands of the gods/God/karma, rather than let that power be held by your government.


(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: another wrongful execution - 5/22/2012 11:09:36 AM   
AngelOfSilence


Posts: 119
Joined: 5/8/2012
Status: offline
quote:

there will never be any good to come out of you being alive.
Are you sure? What about future offspring?

_____________________________

My lack of concern for your sensibilities knows no bounds.

(in reply to FullCircle)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: another wrongful execution - 5/22/2012 1:45:08 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

A man developed a psychosis, it took him to a very evil place in his mind, he made a choice to act in accordance, and many innocents are dead. What test are we going to come up with to determine the choices people may make? Can a society that then tracks down people who don't think right for further testing still call itself free?


Can a society that executes the mentally distraught [psychosis] still call itself free?

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: another wrongful execution - 5/22/2012 6:07:04 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
"Psychosis," is a very broad term, Vincent, that encompasses a lot of different things. That you are so eager to restrict the definition to something you can throw a snark about, is an indicator of why I'm putting such a low priority on getting back to your other question.


(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: another wrongful execution - 5/23/2012 6:24:50 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
Your misperceptions, Rich. No snark was intended. There are compelling mysteries to be explored in the behavior of serial killers. Particularly the question of compulsion. How much free will is involved in their actions. Why was Jeffrey Dahmer unable to contain his hideous obsession, as an example. Aswad brought up a very legitimate issue of trying to learn from these killers. Some have been interviewed extensively in prison. Aswad did not suggest medical experimentation as you claimed in your reply. Strawman by you, Rich.

Neither was my earlier comments referring to retribution by the victim families meant to be snarky. I was merely suggesting a less opaque scenario. Retribution is one of the oft cited justifications for execution by the State. So, it is not beyond reason to suggest that the victim families have an opportunity to stone the killer to death. It is a grotesque scenario to be sure. But it serves to point up the hypocracy of the State claiming it is acting for the victim families or for the greater good of social order, as you put it, if it [the State] commits its 'legal' murder secretly.

I take your accusations of my snark as evidence of your inability to justify your position on this issue.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: another wrongful execution - 5/24/2012 8:22:15 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
Ok. I tried to get back to this last night, got the first half a sentence typed, and then had to go deal with less amusing realities. Oh well.

To a number of things, and a number of people who brought them up, in no particular order at all.

I've noticed a suggestion that an executed person's family might feel bad. Well, yeah, that's probably going to happen, but what has it got to do with the price of tea in China? The whole tragedy has been full of people on the sidelines getting hurt. Shit splatters, ya'know?

Tweak; a moral framework requires more than a one-legged foundation, nestled in the ooze of, "awwwww."

Vincent; the ritual is a whole process, that starts when a judge passes the sentence, and not unduly disturbed by closing the curtain while the IV gets set.

Peon;, I believe it is transformative in the same way the collective power of the social order turns the missing money in my paycheck, from theft into taxation. We redefine murder, through legal rituals, and turn it from something wrong, into something necessary.

Want to learn from killers by only the most humane, and appropriately sensitive methods, of course? Ok. We have lots. Study away. For the ones on death row, don't plan on long term studies. Hell, you might do better with the ones who cut a deal to avoid the death penalty anyway. They are willing to talk.

...

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: another wrongful execution - 5/25/2012 8:59:23 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

He will probably be studied in a psychiatric maximum security facility for the rest of his life,
...
A main concern of many people here, is learning what caused this to happen, and to address those causative factors.

I will not permit the State of Norway to kill its own citizens. That's not an authority I will confer on my state under any circumstance.




Thanks for your patience, Aswad. Today wasn't quite the bitch it might have been.

The sadistic, and slightly evil smart-ass in me demands I suggest dissection and chemical analysis of his remains for the study methodology. But that's just me, and while I joke, the idea of a criminal being sentenced to medical experimentation troubles me more than executing them does. There are certain situations and circumstances where I'm quite willing to have the government hold the power to end the life of a human. I'm not so ok with them having the power to dehumanize someone into a lab rat. I don't think that's precisely what you meant, but how do you study something without testing, once in a while?

A man developed a psychosis, it took him to a very evil place in his mind, he made a choice to act in accordance, and many innocents are dead. What test are we going to come up with to determine the choices people may make? Can a society that then tracks down people who don't think right for further testing still call itself free? I see that as the more tyrannical path. Government may intrude on our money, and our behavior, and yes, have the power to take a life, but the to start ruling on what may exist in our minds, lest we make the wrong choices? That's the one I'm militantly unwilling to confer.

We also discussed this a bit in the aftermath of the attack, and you expressed a thought that this man might just somehow die rather quickly in prison. Here, it's quite clear that we are much in agreement on the fate this man should meet in response to his crimes, but not on where the punishment should come from. I expect it from the established social order, you would like to trust in fate, or leave it to the hands of the gods/God/karma, rather than let that power be held by your government.





Your understanding of this particular concept (medical experimentation on the convict) shows that you posses a significant understanding of critical analysis and rational thought.
Given our history I think it necessary for both of us to check on our disaster preparedness protcols....something is amiss in the universe

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: another wrongful execution - 5/25/2012 9:18:32 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

Vincent; the ritual is a whole process, that starts when a judge passes the sentence, and not unduly disturbed by closing the curtain while the IV gets set.


Rich, by the time you get from start to finish the ritual has lost any significance. It is diluted by time.

quote:

Study away. For the ones on death row, don't plan on long term studies. Hell, you might do better with the ones who cut a deal to avoid the death penalty anyway. They are willing to talk.


Points out the inequity of our system. Justice for all? Not at all.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 71
Page:   <<   < prev  1 2 3 [4]
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: another wrongful execution Page: <<   < prev  1 2 3 [4]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.078