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RE: The True Job Creators - 5/19/2012 9:31:42 PM   
Yachtie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Many a bankrupt business has pegged its hopes on Says Law. But if supply created demand, there'd never be overstock.

"If you build it, they will come" doesn't work if they aren't willing and able to purchase at the offered price. That's what DS (and Nick) is saying. Analysis from one side only--which is NOT what DS (or Nick) is doing, but rather, pointing out the missing piece--is an impediment to real growth, not a seed.


Depends on what is being supplied. With the advent of the automobile even a new buggy whip company producing buggy whips at half the cost of all other buggy whips was doomed to failure.

if they aren't willing and able to purchase at the offered price.

It's not so much the willing, but the able. What I see most is that people cannot identify what is draining the purchasing power from the consumer, and it's not those who happen to be rich.

The drain is over regulation, over taxation, improper interference in the marketplace, easy credit and government subsidies of all stripes.

GDP is C+I+G+(x-i)

Do the math.


_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: The True Job Creators - 5/19/2012 9:38:18 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie
It's not so much the willing, but the able. What I see most is that people cannot identify what is draining the purchasing power from the consumer, and it's not those who happen to be rich.

The drain is over regulation, over taxation, improper interference in the marketplace, easy credit and government subsidies of all stripes.

Wrong. Demand is messed up in this country because real wages have been stagnant or declining since the 1970's despite huge increase in worker productivity.

Taxes have gone down steadily through out this period but that only masked the real issue, people are getting paid less, much less in terms of productivity.

Regulation, in general, serves to redistribute wealth from the owners to the workers since complying with regulations almost always involves taking actions which someone has to pay someone else to do. IOW regulations tend to increase demand and are therefor stimulative of the economy and create jobs.

(in reply to Yachtie)
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RE: The True Job Creators - 5/19/2012 9:44:08 PM   
Yachtie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Even your example, Facebook, didn't create demand if not fulfilling a need, albeit an unidentified one at the time perhaps. But FB users aren't the customers--advertisers are, and those advertisers certainly had demand for better/wider/innovative reach to their potential consumers.




Reread what I bolded. THINK ON IT! Just like the automobile creating demand by fulfilling a need.

FB users are customers without whom no advertiser would advertise. Without users FB is bye bye. FB is a profit business, admittedly currently at a P/E ratio of 88 which is absurd. Advertisers are also customers and totally dependent on the existence of users to reach their potential consumers.

Here's the thing. Could FB exist without advertisers? Sure, if the owner were being philanthropic. They ain't.

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: The True Job Creators - 5/19/2012 9:46:55 PM   
Musicmystery


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Let's see. Taxes are lower than ever. GDP continues around 2-3%, but unemployment stays high. Consumers not able.

Credit is tight, not easy, and has been since the bundled mortgage derivative fiasco fell apart.

Deregulation has been upon us for a while, and yet, no amazing growth.

You want math? Government subsidies -- certainly government spending is high. So G is doing its part.
The weak dollar is propping up exports, so X (which IS net exports) are up and growing. Doing its part.
Despite the stimulus money flowing into banks, it's sitting there. Likewise, businesses are sitting on large cash reserves. Gosh, looks like all this top down trickling theory isn't happening. So Investment is weak, contributing to high unemployment. Increases in productivity are driving business growth. So despite all the "right" things....not happening with I.

That leaves C. With a stagnant job market stuck in high unemployment, consumer spending is down. That's a really, really big problem---because C is 2/3 of GDP!

That's your math. Nick is right. Consumers need the means to consume, and it will drive business and job creation.

An economy isn't the number of resources. It's the circulation of those resources. We have more than ever before. That's not the problem. That it's not moving is the problem, and only - ONLY - consumer spending can make that happen.

Currently, we have and are giving money to stimulate I. But it's sitting there. We should be stimulating C.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 5/19/2012 9:51:06 PM >

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RE: The True Job Creators - 5/19/2012 9:48:55 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Even your example, Facebook, didn't create demand if not fulfilling a need, albeit an unidentified one at the time perhaps. But FB users aren't the customers--advertisers are, and those advertisers certainly had demand for better/wider/innovative reach to their potential consumers.




Reread what I bolded. THINK ON IT! Just like the automobile creating demand by fulfilling a need.

FB users are customers without whom no advertiser would advertise. Without users FB is bye bye. FB is a profit business, admittedly currently at a P/E ratio of 88 which is absurd. Advertisers are also customers and totally dependent on the existence of users to reach their potential consumers.

Here's the thing. Could FB exist without advertisers? Sure, if the owner were being philanthropic. They ain't.

Re-read what *I* wrote. You've half got it.

Users aren't FB customers--they're the product.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 5/19/2012 9:49:18 PM >

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RE: The True Job Creators - 5/19/2012 10:11:37 PM   
Yachtie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie
It's not so much the willing, but the able. What I see most is that people cannot identify what is draining the purchasing power from the consumer, and it's not those who happen to be rich.

The drain is over regulation, over taxation, improper interference in the marketplace, easy credit and government subsidies of all stripes.


Wrong. Demand is messed up in this country because real wages have been stagnant or declining since the 1970's despite huge increase in worker productivity.

Why is that?

Taxes have gone down steadily through out this period but that only masked the real issue, people are getting paid less, much less in terms of productivity.

Why is that?

Regulation, in general, serves to redistribute wealth from the owners to the workers

No. Regulations add economic burdens onto business which reduces available funds which could be used for other purposes, like perhaps better pay.

since complying with regulations almost always involves taking actions which someone has to pay someone else to do.

You make my case. The business must now either sub out that work or hire someone to do the job to comply with the regulation. This adds employees (costs) which reduces available funds by which, perhaps, others might get a pay raise.

IOW regulations tend to increase demand and are therefor stimulative of the economy and create jobs.

Demand for what? Surely not the product / service being offered.



But you're right about regulations tend to increase demand and are therefor stimulative of the economy and create jobs.
The demand you cite is an economic skew to the market. It is a false demand created by government, burdened upon the private sector resulting in lower wages and potential business expansion than if that demand did not exist. And if regulations really are stimulative and create such jobs, than it should be possible to regulate to such an extent that all business and all people could live on compliance alone. No need to actually make anything.

The only people really making out are the ones who go about seeing to it that businesses comply with the regulations, they being government employees who's wages are paid by the taxpayers and business owners. It's also the business owners who absorb the costs of the compliance passing them on to the consumers via higher prices.



_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

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RE: The True Job Creators - 5/19/2012 10:15:12 PM   
Yachtie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Re-read what *I* wrote. You've half got it.

Users aren't FB customers--they're the product.


No, FB's product is FB itself. If the users are the product, does FB create them?

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: The True Job Creators - 5/19/2012 10:30:49 PM   
Yachtie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Let's see. Taxes are lower than ever. GDP continues around 2-3%, but unemployment stays high. Consumers not able.

What component of GDP is currently maintaining it at the 2-3% level? Why, it's G. Not C or I and (x-i) is abysmal.

Credit is tight, not easy, and has been since the bundled mortgage derivative fiasco fell apart.

True. But it was easy credit that made the bubbles to begin with.

Deregulation has been upon us for a while, and yet, no amazing growth.

On the banks, sure. What deregulation on private business are you implying? Aren't more regs being added?


You want math? Government subsidies -- certainly government spending is high. So G is doing its part.

Damn right it is. When G can no longer be afforded, and C and I has not improved, what happens to GDP? Think it might go negative?

The weak dollar is propping up exports, so X (which IS net exports) are up and growing. Doing its part.

Really? I thought we were running a trade deficit, not a surplus.

Despite the stimulus money flowing into banks, it's sitting there. Likewise, businesses are sitting on large cash reserves. ... So Investment is weak, contributing to high unemployment. Increases in productivity are driving business growth. So despite all the "right" things....not happening with I.

Ok.

That leaves C. With a stagnant job market stuck in high unemployment, consumer spending is down. That's a really, really big problem---because C is 2/3 of GDP!

That's your math. Nick is right. Consumers need the means to consume, and it will drive business and job creation.

Consumers are tapped out. Credit defaults are high. People lived on the promise of the MOON, like housing will never go down. People used their homes like ATMs. The consumer is highly debt burdened; i.e. student loans.

The problem is to much debt was allowed to be created.


An economy isn't the number of resources. It's the circulation of those resources. We have more than ever before. That's not the problem. That it's not moving is the problem, and only - ONLY - consumer spending can make that happen.

Currently, we have and are giving money to stimulate I. But it's sitting there. We should be stimulating C.


Stimulate C with what exactly? Government could add to G by giving loans to C in order to stimulate the economy. But C is tapped out. OOPS!




_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

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RE: The True Job Creators - 5/19/2012 10:36:29 PM   
Musicmystery


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Did you read any of the beginning of this thread?

It's about the allocation and misallocation of resources.

The current method is not working and has not worked previously.

Because its essential flaw is that jobs aren't created from the top.

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RE: The True Job Creators - 5/19/2012 10:38:47 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Re-read what *I* wrote. You've half got it.

Users aren't FB customers--they're the product.


No, FB's product is FB itself. If the users are the product, does FB create them?

This is just silly. Besides, it's arguing over an example rather than a point.

Yes, FB does "create" the users. Google does the same thing. It's why they are free.

In both cases, they create qualified traffic, and that's what they sell.

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RE: The True Job Creators - 5/19/2012 10:53:07 PM   
Yachtie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Did you read any of the beginning of this thread?

It's about the allocation and misallocation of resources.

The current method is not working and has not worked previously.

Because its essential flaw is that jobs aren't created from the top.


So the current method, which is not working and has not worked previously, essential flaw is that jobs aren't created from the top.

Hmmm. I agree it's not working quite right these days, but not for jobs not being created from the top but the top interfering in the market which is the sum total engine of job creation.





_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: The True Job Creators - 5/19/2012 10:56:52 PM   
Musicmystery


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AND that brings us back to page one.

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RE: The True Job Creators - 5/20/2012 5:26:54 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie
It's not so much the willing, but the able. What I see most is that people cannot identify what is draining the purchasing power from the consumer, and it's not those who happen to be rich.

The drain is over regulation, over taxation, improper interference in the marketplace, easy credit and government subsidies of all stripes.


Wrong. Demand is messed up in this country because real wages have been stagnant or declining since the 1970's despite huge increase in worker productivity.

Why is that?

Mostly because of deunionization, outsourcing and workers steadily losing power.

quote:

quote:


Taxes have gone down steadily through out this period but that only masked the real issue, people are getting paid less, much less in terms of productivity.

Why is that?

see above
quote:

quote:


Regulation, in general, serves to redistribute wealth from the owners to the workers

No. Regulations add economic burdens onto business which reduces available funds which could be used for other purposes, like perhaps better pay.

Too simplistic. An employer, in general, pays an employee to comply with regulations. It is very rare that that employees sole duty is regulatory compliance so the massive increases in worker productivity completely swamp the minor cost increase of regulatory compliance.

quote:

quote:

since complying with regulations almost always involves taking actions which someone has to pay someone else to do.

You make my case. The business must now either sub out that work or hire someone to do the job to comply with the regulation. This adds employees (costs) which reduces available funds by which, perhaps, others might get a pay raise.

Being wrong twice doesn't make you less wrong

quote:

quote:


IOW regulations tend to increase demand and are therefor stimulative of the economy and create jobs.

Demand for what? Surely not the product / service being offered.


Demand period. You seem to misunderstand this part. Put money in the hands of the middle and lower classes and that money will be spent somewhere which is better for the economy than if that money is simply sitting in some investment account of the owner class.

Henry Ford knew this implicitly. He paid his workers enough so that they could reasonably buy his product. This served to increase dmand throughout the economy not just for his cars. GM OTOH has fought hard against paying even a living wage to its line employees. Since the end of the post WWII boom GM has struggled and Ford has not.

Anyone who thinks anyone is "making out" through regulatory compliance, especially government employees, has no idea what the pay scales involved are.


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RE: The True Job Creators - 5/20/2012 5:47:01 AM   
Yachtie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Demand period. You seem to misunderstand this part. Put money in the hands of the middle and lower classes and that money will be spent somewhere which is better for the economy than if that money is simply sitting in some investment account of the owner class.

Henry Ford knew this implicitly. He paid his workers enough so that they could reasonably buy his product. This served to increase dmand throughout the economy not just for his cars. GM OTOH has fought hard against paying even a living wage to its line employees. Since the end of the post WWII boom GM has struggled and Ford has not.

Anyone who thinks anyone is "making out" through regulatory compliance, especially government employees, has no idea what the pay scales involved are.



2nd paragraph first. Ford had no regulations to comply with. The cost of government to Ford was miniscule if any cost at all. If Ford had the same level of compliance costs (incl. SS, FICA, FUTA, Medicare, maternity leave, etc ad nauseum) as we have today, would your worker compensation and or cost of the car be the same?

3rd paragraph. Government employees are making out, and quite well indeed. Generous benefits and for many, pensions. All at the taxpayers' expense. These compliance related jobs would not exist but for government.

1st paragraph. How do you propose getting those funds from the investment account of the owner class into the hands of the middle and lower class? Raise taxes on the owner class for redistribution to the middle and lower classes? Hell, then the middle and lower classes won't need jobs producing what the owner class needs to sell to pay the damn taxes on which the transfer recipients live.

That'll work. I like it


< Message edited by Yachtie -- 5/20/2012 5:55:31 AM >


_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: The True Job Creators - 5/20/2012 6:56:22 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Demand period. You seem to misunderstand this part. Put money in the hands of the middle and lower classes and that money will be spent somewhere which is better for the economy than if that money is simply sitting in some investment account of the owner class.

Henry Ford knew this implicitly. He paid his workers enough so that they could reasonably buy his product. This served to increase dmand throughout the economy not just for his cars. GM OTOH has fought hard against paying even a living wage to its line employees. Since the end of the post WWII boom GM has struggled and Ford has not.

Anyone who thinks anyone is "making out" through regulatory compliance, especially government employees, has no idea what the pay scales involved are.



2nd paragraph first. Ford had no regulations to comply with. The cost of government to Ford was miniscule if any cost at all. If Ford had the same level of compliance costs (incl. SS, FICA, FUTA, Medicare, maternity leave, etc ad nauseum) as we have today, would your worker compensation and or cost of the car be the same?

3rd paragraph. Government employees are making out, and quite well indeed. Generous benefits and for many, pensions. All at the taxpayers' expense. These compliance related jobs would not exist but for government.

1st paragraph. How do you propose getting those funds from the investment account of the owner class into the hands of the middle and lower class? Raise taxes on the owner class for redistribution to the middle and lower classes? Hell, then the middle and lower classes won't need jobs producing what the owner class needs to sell to pay the damn taxes on which the transfer recipients live.

That'll work. I like it


The first paragraph was in reference to your claims about regulation. So the way that wealth transfers is by the owner class paying their employees.

Ford had many regulations to comply with and more as time went on. To claim their were no government regulations while Henry Ford was alive is ridiculous.

Government employees do not get rich and in general make substantially below market wages. Without those compliance jobs businesses would go right back to polluting rivers so badly they catch fire, running plants so unsafely their entire workforce burns to death in a fire or catches an environmental disease etc.

We tried laissez faire capitalism in the Gilded Age and it was a disaster. If you don't understand that you really shouldn't even be discussing modern economics.

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RE: The True Job Creators - 5/20/2012 7:21:08 AM   
DesideriScuri


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Consumers don't create jobs. They create demand for stuff. But, demand doesn't create jobs. Demand is a reason to create jobs and lack of demand is a reason to scale back on jobs, or, in the case of new stuff, a reason to not create jobs.

Business people create jobs. The guy over at Bob's Truck Shop created a job based on some perceived demand. He's a job creator. The person that made the decision to add a 3rd shift at a car manufacturing plant created more jobs. Regardless of demand, these jobs won't be created until someone or some group decides to create jobs.

China makes a widget that sells for $4. There is only one plant making them in the entire world. Everyone wants to have 10 of these widgets on hand at any given time, and they are consumables, so they have to be continually replaced. If a production study is done and it is determined that building a plant in the US would only be able to create a widget that sold for no less than $5, and would take 30 years to pay off the investment, how likely is a high demand going to create a job?

You have to have the entrepreneurs. Mom and Pop sitting at the table, wondering how they are going to make enough money for Billy and Susie to go to college. They get an idea, talk to their friends, and maybe even pay to have a Market Demand study done. They determine that they can start a business that can meet their needs and the Market Study supports the idea that there will be enough demand for the business output. If they don't pull the trigger, it doesn't matter how many consumers (for their output) there are. No jobs will be created.

Hell, once a manufacturer has found an innovative efficiency, it's in their favor to manufacture only enough goods to maintain high enough demand for their output. Flooding the market will drop the price and lower their returns. Yes, mass production does have inherent efficiencies that lower costs, but there is a point where more does not always equal less cost.

Consumers are absolutely necessary. To a certain extent, greed is absolutely necessary. To deny that demand doesn't include greed is disingenuous. Why do people want Air Jordans? Why are their fights when some new shoe comes out? Is it because the shoe is that much better than every other shoe? No, it's largely about status. And, my friends (and also to those that wouldn't consider me their friend), that right there is greed from the consumer side. Need doesn't always drive a person to replace a vehicle every 2-3 years. Imagine, though, if everyone were to keep their vehicles for 10+ years. How well would that work out for the auto companies?

No, consumers don't create jobs. Consumers give reasons for job creators to create jobs.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: The True Job Creators - 5/20/2012 7:28:25 AM   
Yachtie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Government employees do not get rich and in general make substantially below market wages.



What world are you living on?

One of the biggest differences between jobs in the private sector and those in the government sector are the salaries. As a general rule, government jobs have higher average compensation for those in the private sector.

As to Ford, in the early to mid 1900s, what regulations did Ford have to deal with? OSHA? EPA? NLRB? Come on Domken, I await your answer with great anticipation.

Seriously DomKen, you're not tall enough for this ride.

< Message edited by Yachtie -- 5/20/2012 7:35:44 AM >


_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: The True Job Creators - 5/20/2012 8:04:13 AM   
Musicmystery


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You have some sweeping assumptions about what you call regulation, but seems to be mostly a tax issue for you.

To use your example--Ford would have been fine, and with room to spare. He did what people thought was insane--he paid his workers a minimum of $5/day, even made a big announcement. That was unheard of, a minimum wage so high--it more than doubled his workers' pay (which had been $2.34), and in the middle of an industrial depression. Workers with six months got profit sharing as well. He also lowered the 60 hour work week to 48 hours, then to 40. His $5 day worked so well that he later raised the minimum to $6 a day--in 1935, in the middle of the Great Depression!

So what if a man who could more than double wages had to pay FICA and Medicaid? He'd be fine.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 5/20/2012 8:08:01 AM >

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RE: The True Job Creators - 5/20/2012 10:05:57 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Government employees do not get rich and in general make substantially below market wages.



What world are you living on?

One of the biggest differences between jobs in the private sector and those in the government sector are the salaries. As a general rule, government jobs have higher average compensation for those in the private sector.

As to Ford, in the early to mid 1900s, what regulations did Ford have to deal with? OSHA? EPA? NLRB? Come on Domken, I await your answer with great anticipation.

Seriously DomKen, you're not tall enough for this ride.

GS 10, equivalent to a middle management type, makes 45k per year. Try and find a middle manager who will work for 45k.
http://federaljobs.net/salarybase.htm

Ford had to deal with antitrust regulations, in place since the Teddy Roosevelt administration, increasingly strict work place regulations, workers comp was created in 1908, all sorts of labor relations laws, post 1932 that includes the NLRB (in 1934).

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RE: The True Job Creators - 5/20/2012 5:34:57 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

So riddle me this, Batman... how do "consumers" gain income in order to purchase goods?!!


It helps to put the horse in front of the cart, rather than the other way around.

Reducing taxes for consumers increases spending, which increases demand, which causes businesses to expand in order to supply, which causes new jobs to be created. To maintain the same level of public services, the taxes are then collected from other sources, such as the wealthy. Business owners will never cease to attempt to meet demand, regardless of how much you tax them, because meeting demand is how they earn a living. They will always attempt to dispense with labor when they can, but this does not vary with taxation, because it's about decreasing their expenses to increase their profits, which is always a net gain. However, consumers with low tax rates can vote with their wallet, because they have the margins to do so, unlike consumers with higher tax rates.

Avoiding taxation for the rich is the classic response of the abused: if I don't offend him so much, maybe he'll stop beating me.

Fact of the matter is that the power relationship is the other way around. Just like with abuse, it's what they do to your mind that causes you to lose power by starting to believe you don't have it anymore and letting fear govern your actions. Appeasement is a strategy that doesn't work, because the only people you might want to appease are the ones hurting you, and they're not going to stop hurting you just because you stop fighting back. And in finances, you are hurt, unless your individual net economic growth- without the income from labor- exceeds the national inflation rate consistently in the long term.

Money isn't in direct correspondence to value. It is an IOU. A unit of money, whatever the currency, is a share in the production output of the nation that prints the currency, and thus a share in the indenture of its labor pool. Inflation rates are similar to interest on a loan in this regard, a business model that is well known from pimps that do this with their prostitutes. Any tax cut is handing companies a greater amount of indentured labor, or releasing private citizens from some of theirs, depending on whose taxes you cut. The same goes for inflation. Bring the inflation rate up, and you generate more indenture. Bring it down, and you generate less indenture.

You're asking the wrong question. It's not a chicken and egg thing, it's a water cycle thing. Water evaporates from the sea, rains down somewhere, collects in a stream, flows back to the sea, and then evaporates again. The way to regulate water cycles is to regulate the insolation that drives it. By shifting the tax burden from the consumers to the wealthy, you're requiring more to return to the cycle from them, while at the same time giving the consumers more spending power with which to create the demand that drives the production that keeps them in a state of ongoing gainful employment, which in turn raises income and thus creates even more spending power, driving the machine forward. Businesses can't earn without production or inflation, and they can't produce without consumption.

It's a zero sum game, and its inherent instability is what allows it to work, shuffling goods and labor and production back and forth.

Another zero sum game is poker without the rake, and like the finance game, it's about who can grab the most from the circulating money. The same money is going around the table all night, and a good player takes more money out of the game than they put in, while a poor player puts more money into the game than they take out. That's how you earn money playing it. Chance has nothing to do with it. Poker, like finance, is a game of skill. And, like finance, it's about beating the other guy. But here's the important thing: if you play poker too well, people won't play with you anymore, and the game stops; so, too, with finance. Take the greed down a notch, the game keeps getting played and everyone has a good time. And the skilled player still keeps on winning big.

Do you routinely play poker with high stakes, against more skillful opponents than yourself, with a high rake?

I may have to bet you do.

IWYW,
- Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to MasterSlaveLA)
Profile   Post #: 100
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