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RE: The True Job Creators - 5/21/2012 8:45:47 PM   
Owner59


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Status: offline 		How many jobs did JP Morgan create when they lost billions of other people`s money recently?

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RE: The True Job Creators - 5/21/2012 9:23:15 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

 
So your point is what... that ALL the Gallup Poll respondents lied about having money invested in the Stock Market?!!



No my point is that there isn't enough data provided by that poll question to reach the conclusion you've reached.

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RE: The True Job Creators - 5/21/2012 9:41:20 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA


So your point is what... that ALL the Gallup Poll respondents lied about having money invested in the Stock Market?!!



No my point is that there isn't enough data provided by that poll question to reach the conclusion you've reached.


Ahh... I understand your point now.  Okay, then let's look at JUST Mutual Funds -- as of 2011, 44% of households owned Mutual Funds. 

(See Page 87: http://www.ici.org/pdf/2012_factbook.pdf)



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RE: The True Job Creators - 5/21/2012 9:47:29 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA


So your point is what... that ALL the Gallup Poll respondents lied about having money invested in the Stock Market?!!



No my point is that there isn't enough data provided by that poll question to reach the conclusion you've reached.


Ahh... I understand your point now.  Okay, then let's look at JUST Mutual Funds -- as of 2011, 44% of households owned Mutual Funds. 

(See Page 87: http://www.ici.org/pdf/2012_factbook.pdf)



So? Most of those mutual fund shares are owned as part of 401's and IRA's and the investors will never pay a cap gains tax on those investments.

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RE: The True Job Creators - 5/21/2012 10:20:37 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

So?



So... factor the number of Americans owning stocks, bonds, mutual funds, etc. and it dispels the nonsensical assertion that "many" do not have "the wherewithall" to engage in such ownership, or benefit from the 15% Cap Gains rate.

But by all means, if you have data that shows otherwise, do feel free to share it.


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RE: The True Job Creators - 5/22/2012 8:49:26 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

So?



So... factor the number of Americans owning stocks, bonds, mutual funds, etc. and it dispels the nonsensical assertion that "many" do not have "the wherewithall" to engage in such ownership, or benefit from the 15% Cap Gains rate.

But by all means, if you have data that shows otherwise, do feel free to share it.


Pre economic collapse:
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2008/jun/11/republican-national-committee-republican/mostly-higher-incomes-pay-capital-gains-tax-/

Seems pretty conclusive, most taxpayers do not and never will pay capital gains taxes.

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RE: The True Job Creators - 5/22/2012 3:55:52 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

Pre economic collapse:
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2008/jun/11/republican-national-committee-republican/mostly-higher-incomes-pay-capital-gains-tax-/

Seems pretty conclusive, most taxpayers do not and never will pay capital gains taxes.


Why must you dilute a pie fight with established facts when your opponent has already established a rule that the dialogue is to be MADE UP as you go along.

FIVE YARDS FOR EMPLOYING REALITY IN A POLITICAL ARGUMENT IN THIS FORUM.

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RE: The True Job Creators - 5/22/2012 7:58:33 PM   
Edwynn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad


quote:

Avoiding taxation for the rich is the classic response of the abused: if I don't offend him so much, maybe he'll stop beating me.


Thanks for pointing that out. That is almost exactly what is going on here. What we read in history is that those who have, vary greatly in their success in retaining that. Those who disperse the wealth as obtained from resources sufficiently enough maintain, those who do not decline. What is new to us here today is that the we have such a small army of wannabes that have taken heart by by way of both 'alternative' and 'mainstream' media that it's all somebody else's fault, especially the socialists, because the social economy works in western and northern Europe, but not in Mediterranean Europe or the USA. Case closed.


quote:

It's a zero sum game, and its inherent instability is what allows it to work, shuffling goods and labor and production back and forth.


I would argue on this one. Sorry, but I can't go for the Malthusian take on things. He has been proven wrong, then right, then wrong, then ...

The powers that be most certainly attempt to make it into a zero sum game in every way possible, but do not mistake their efforts (thus far quite successful) in retaining the majority of financial benefit from increased productivity of labour, therefor keeping things 'level' in that regard ... , but increased productivity is increased productivity, regardless who reaps the benefit greatest.

The fact that economics of the situation currently steers the best engineer graduates towards oil extraction and internet social and thus internet advertising does not constitute a 'zero sum game,' rather merely a misallocation of resources, which has happened many times in history.


But thanks in any regard to another of your usual good posts.



< Message edited by Edwynn -- 5/22/2012 8:02:21 PM >

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RE: The True Job Creators - 5/22/2012 8:14:09 PM   
Edwynn


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RE: The True Job Creators - 5/22/2012 8:21:10 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

I go away for a month, and now I can't figure out how to edit to remove the weird boxed-in lines.



Don't worry, one thing hasn't changed. You're still getting credit as Abba's earliest adopter.


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RE: The True Job Creators - 5/22/2012 11:11:14 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Seems pretty conclusive....



Uhhh... no -- 7 year old data is HARDLY "conclusive", and especially since they come up with an 11% figure, when 20% of Americans own individual stocks alone -- i.e., not inclusive of bonds, mutual funds, etc.  Thus, once again, factor the number of Americans owning stocks, bonds, mutual funds, etc. and it dispels the nonsensical assertion that "many" do not have "the wherewithall" to engage in such ownership, or benefit from the 15% Cap Gains rate.





< Message edited by MasterSlaveLA -- 5/22/2012 11:42:18 PM >

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RE: The True Job Creators - 5/23/2012 2:45:29 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Seems pretty conclusive....



Uhhh... no -- 7 year old data is HARDLY "conclusive", and especially since they come up with an 11% figure, when 20% of Americans own individual stocks alone -- i.e., not inclusive of bonds, mutual funds, etc.  Thus, once again, factor the number of Americans owning stocks, bonds, mutual funds, etc. and it dispels the nonsensical assertion that "many" do not have "the wherewithall" to engage in such ownership, or benefit from the 15% Cap Gains rate.

You asked for data and I gave you date. You cannot dismiss that data without something more than a handwave.

The fact remains most people do not and will never pay any capital gains taxes.

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RE: The True Job Creators - 5/23/2012 7:55:25 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
You asked for data and I gave you date. You cannot dismiss that data without something more than a handwave.

Remember who you're talking to there, Ken.


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RE: The True Job Creators - 5/23/2012 9:11:17 AM   
MasterSlaveLA


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Seems pretty conclusive....



Uhhh... no -- 7 year old data is HARDLY "conclusive", and especially since they come up with an 11% figure, when 20% of Americans own individual stocks alone -- i.e., not inclusive of bonds, mutual funds, etc.  Thus, once again, factor the number of Americans owning stocks, bonds, mutual funds, etc. and it dispels the nonsensical assertion that "many" do not have "the wherewithall" to engage in such ownership, or benefit from the 15% Cap Gains rate.


You asked for data and I gave you date.



Yeah... 7 YEAR OLD DATA, which is no longer accurate.

quote:



The fact remains most people do not and will never pay any capital gains taxes.



1)  The FACT remains, this is YOUR strange little argument you've been having with YOURSELF -- that's NOT what was alleged by the other poster.  Said poster stated that "average citizens" lack "the wherewithall" to invest, and thereby lack the the opportunity to benefit from Capital Gains -- THIS IS FALSE!!!  Liberals projecting their own lack of "wherewithall" (stupidity) on others doesn't make it so.

2)  With regard to the OP, and as I stated, THE FACT REMAINS:

..."ordinary Americans" ALSO only have to pay "15% tax on capital gains" -- so there is no alleged "privilege" to anyone.  EVERYBODY PAYS 15% ON CAPITAL GAINS.
 
...even if we raised the Capital Gains tax to 30%, it would take over 43 years of collecting this additional tax revenue to just equal the Federal budget deficit for 2011 alone. (more info here)






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RE: The True Job Creators - 5/23/2012 9:20:00 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
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From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		Lets` just exempt folks from a CG tax on selling their primary homes.....as long as they use the money to buy their next primary home.....

That way hedge-fund managers would at least pay taxes on the money they earn.......like EVERYONE else does.....

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 5/23/2012 9:22:34 AM >

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RE: The True Job Creators - 5/23/2012 9:21:10 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		"Lets` just exempt folks from a CG on selling their primary homes.....as long as they use the money to buy their next primary home....."


Oh silly me......that`s how we do it already......


Never mind about that part.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 5/23/2012 9:23:21 AM >

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"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

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RE: The True Job Creators - 5/23/2012 9:54:17 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
Lets` just exempt folks from a CG tax on selling their primary homes.....as long as they use the money to buy their next primary home.....
That way hedge-fund managers would at least pay taxes on the money they earn.......like EVERYONE else does.....


<cough, cough> consumption taxes, not income taxes <cough, cough>

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What I support:

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RE: The True Job Creators - 5/23/2012 11:58:22 AM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		When everyone gets back from recess . . .

I graduated into stagflation. There were no jobs. I had to learn a new approach.

Among those new realizations were that, in a capitalist system, I was going to need capital to advance. That's not easy when living hand to mouth, but in time, savings and equity build, and the system began to work for me instead of against.

But that said, to get to a 15% tax rate, I'd have to have nothing but capital gains income. Not dividends. Not 401k/403b (withdrawals are taxed as income), and not even business income. Only people who have so much capital that they primarily live from their investments earn 15% taxable revenue.

I'm in the top 25% of income earners in the U.S. (barely). I certainly pay far more than 15% taxes. Not complaining--just reporting the facts. Nor could I. My income comes from business projects.

Now, if we're done squabbling over capital gains taxes ---

Either way, the point of the article in the OP is that the status quo is NOT creating jobs. Our own data show this. Nor has it ever, even back when Reagan tried it, and had to resort to quadrupling the national debt with government spending on high-tech weaponry to artificially suppress high employment.

If the goal is creating jobs, then tax-cutting to spur that creation is not the way to go.

And if we're going to cut taxes anyway, despite all the evidence, it's time to acknowledge that the goal is NOT job creation--and never was.


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RE: The True Job Creators - 5/23/2012 1:50:11 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Seems pretty conclusive....



Uhhh... no -- 7 year old data is HARDLY "conclusive", and especially since they come up with an 11% figure, when 20% of Americans own individual stocks alone -- i.e., not inclusive of bonds, mutual funds, etc.  Thus, once again, factor the number of Americans owning stocks, bonds, mutual funds, etc. and it dispels the nonsensical assertion that "many" do not have "the wherewithall" to engage in such ownership, or benefit from the 15% Cap Gains rate.


You asked for data and I gave you date.



Yeah... 7 YEAR OLD DATA, which is no longer accurate.

quote:



The fact remains most people do not and will never pay any capital gains taxes.



1)  The FACT remains, this is YOUR strange little argument you've been having with YOURSELF -- that's NOT what was alleged by the other poster.  Said poster stated that "average citizens" lack "the wherewithall" to invest, and thereby lack the the opportunity to benefit from Capital Gains -- THIS IS FALSE!!!  Liberals projecting their own lack of "wherewithall" (stupidity) on others doesn't make it so.

2)  With regard to the OP, and as I stated, THE FACT REMAINS:

..."ordinary Americans" ALSO only have to pay "15% tax on capital gains" -- so there is no alleged "privilege" to anyone.  EVERYBODY PAYS 15% ON CAPITAL GAINS.
 
...even if we raised the Capital Gains tax to 30%, it would take over 43 years of collecting this additional tax revenue to just equal the Federal budget deficit for 2011 alone. (more info here)






Do you have any evidence at all that more people paid cap gains taxes last year, as percentage of the population, than did so in 2005?

As to your ongoing complaints I'll repeat what I've said all along, most people will never pay capital gains taxes because most people do not engage in activity taxed in that manner and the primary reason is most people do not have the kind of money needed to directly invest in the stock market or real estate.

Who cares how long just raising the cap gains rate would take to equal the deficit? That is a nonsensical comparison. We're talking simple fairness, the very wealthiest Americans pay far less in taxes, as a percentage of income, than does the average wage earner in this country and that is fundamentally unfair.

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RE: The True Job Creators - 5/23/2012 2:56:49 PM   
Edwynn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

But that said, to get to a 15% tax rate, I'd have to have nothing but capital gains income. Not dividends.


Actually, the tax cuts from 2003 pushed dividends into the 15% territory also. The heighth of fiscal irresponsibility.

quote:

Not 401k/403b (withdrawals are taxed as income), and not even business income. Only people who have so much capital that they primarily live from their investments earn 15% taxable revenue.


Yes. The fact that many are invested in retirement and pension plans that own stock, of which capital gains and dividends are a small percentage as compared to their (workers) after-income-tax contribution to that purpose, is not to be confused with those who have the means to target various and sundry 15% bracket ventures as primary source of income. Not to mention the off-shore avenues for even better tax avoidance and evasion (both) available to those of such means.




< Message edited by Edwynn -- 5/23/2012 2:58:29 PM >

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