Dawkins says Yes to Bibles in schools (Full Version)

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tweakabelle -> Dawkins says Yes to Bibles in schools (5/20/2012 6:48:54 AM)

Controversial atheist Prof Richard Dawkins surprised many by supporting a plan to distribute Bibles to State schools in his native UK. In an opinion piece in today's 'Observer" paper, Dawkins outlines his reasons which, it must be said, are a little less than ecclesiastical:

"I have an ulterior motive for wishing to contribute to [UK Education Sec] Gove's scheme. People who do not know the Bible well have been gulled into thinking it is a good guide to morality. [...] I have even heard the cynically misanthropic opinion that, without the Bible as a moral compass, people would have no restraint against murder, theft and mayhem. The surest way to disabuse yourself of this pernicious falsehood is to read the Bible itself."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2012/may/19/richard-dawkins-king-james-bible



vincentML -> RE: Dawkins says Yes to Bibles in schools (5/20/2012 10:53:50 AM)

I think classes in Belief and Disbelief would serve a greater benefit. Handing out bibles seems unproductive. Those who are inclined to read them already are; those that are not inclined probably won't. Dawkins forgets the nature of teenagers. They are more concerned with their genitals than with the gentiles.



PeonForHer -> RE: Dawkins says Yes to Bibles in schools (5/20/2012 11:50:59 AM)

I see Dawkins' reasoning, but it's still a bad idea. As we all know, it isn't what's in the Bible that matters, it's what its translators and retailers say is in it that matters. The teachers, in other words.

Thankfully, nowadays, there's the Internet. The kids can check up on anything that smacks of horseshit that is said about the Bible's contents.




SternSkipper -> RE: Dawkins says Yes to Bibles in schools (5/20/2012 3:44:38 PM)

Do let us know how it all turns out.



Fellow -> RE: Dawkins says Yes to Bibles in schools (5/20/2012 3:52:57 PM)

No doubt, it is rather trivial. How can anybody understand the human culture and history without knowing religions and the Bible?



PeonForHer -> RE: Dawkins says Yes to Bibles in schools (5/20/2012 4:04:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fellow

How can anybody understand the human culture and history without knowing religions and the Bible?


Very easily, I'd say. However, I do think it's possible to leave school knowing some culture and history despite having been stuffed with the contents of the Bible.



Fellow -> RE: Dawkins says Yes to Bibles in schools (5/21/2012 7:25:17 AM)

quote:

Very easily, I'd say. However, I do think it's possible to leave school knowing some culture and history despite having been stuffed with the contents of the Bible.


So, you are saying: the quality of the education could be lowered, important is to avoid the book.



dcnovice -> RE: Dawkins says Yes to Bibles in schools (5/21/2012 5:27:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fellow

How can anybody understand the human culture and history without knowing religions and the Bible?


Very easily, I'd say. However, I do think it's possible to leave school knowing some culture and history despite having been stuffed with the contents of the Bible.


In terms of "stuffing" the poor kids, I would distinguish between catechesis (best left, imho, to churches and families) and discussion about how the Bible (or any other religious text, for that matter) shaped history and culture--and, in the case of the KJV (as noted by both Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens), influenced the evolution of the English language.



hardcybermaster -> RE: Dawkins says Yes to Bibles in schools (5/22/2012 1:33:03 AM)

I wasn't aware that Dawkins was in charge of school policy regarding religion, or of anything to do with school....... non story



GotSteel -> RE: Dawkins says Yes to Bibles in schools (5/22/2012 8:20:13 AM)

There are several of prominent westerns atheists who will respond to the question of how does one become an atheist with the answer by reading the Bible.



joether -> RE: Dawkins says Yes to Bibles in schools (5/22/2012 8:42:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
There are several of prominent westerns atheists who will respond to the question of how does one become an atheist with the answer by reading the Bible.


And there are many people that will state by reading the Bible they are a better person. For some, its obvious they only believe or think they are even though reality states otherwise. For others, it really does/did make them a better person. And yes, as you pointed out, a third group that reads it and simply finds the material within not to hold truth or bearing on their lives. Just to bad all three groups couldn't live together in harmony....



PeonForHer -> RE: Dawkins says Yes to Bibles in schools (5/22/2012 11:24:13 AM)

FR

I'm sorry to say that, amongst English educators, there's quite a widespread feeling that the Bible has no place in schools because it teaches unreason at a time when the kids are carefully being taught to value and to use reason. A couple of teachers I know have said that this in itself isn't a problem a) so long as the kids are old enough to have developed critical faculties (ie well beyond primary school age) and b) so long as a reliable, long-standing opposing worldview to that of the Bible is disseminated along with it. So, the aforementioned teacher is OK with Gove's idea, so long as Gove also supports giving each school a copy of Marx and Engels' Communist Manifesto. 'Nothing wrong with a bit of balance', he says. [:)]



littlewonder -> RE: Dawkins says Yes to Bibles in schools (5/22/2012 12:31:22 PM)

Where I grew up, the bible is handed out at lunchtime by the Gideons every year. The school used to always teach it as it tied into social studies and science. None of us had a problem with it. Oh yeah, we also included God in the pledge of allegiance every single morning. No one ever complained. Then again I grew up in a small podunk religious town.

Some of my friends turned out atheists, some turned out religious, some turned out agnostics. The bible never hurt anyone other than to give them information on what they wished to choose in their lives.



Winterapple -> RE: Dawkins says Yes to Bibles in schools (5/22/2012 1:41:31 PM)

If the Bible could be taught in context and by people who don't have a dog in the fight ie religious people or anti religious people it could be a good thing.
But given the hysteria and narrow mindedness both factions are prone to it is
probably almost impossible to do on a public/state school.
To use it as a tool as either is inclined to do at times is
intellectually dishonest.
I understand many people have baggage where religon is concerned
but ignoring the Bibles part in human history is like
denying gravity.
The Bible should be studied as literature and philosophy.
Putting it into context gives one a understanding of the history
of mankind, language and a host of other things.
I think there are some things an educated person should be
exposed to and the Bible is one of them as much as Homer
or Shakespeare or Marx.
The Bible can be read by a nonreligious person.
The King James version of the Bible is not only
historically important as a cultural artifact but is full
of beautiful language.
The Bible has informed and inspired some of the
greatest art and literature mankind has ever produced.
Knowledge of the Bible informs understanding and
enjoyment of Shakespeare for example.
I would be as sad not to know the story of King David as
I would be to not know the story of King Arthur.
Ignoring the influence and the history of the Bible is
to pretty much ignore the history of western civilization
which I understand some are content to do.
As a teenager I wanted to read all the major religious texts.
In college I took several courses on religon that were
taught in context as literature, language, philosophy,
art history and cultural history. One thing you learn is
ancient people didn't take everything in the Bible literally either.



MileHighM -> RE: Dawkins says Yes to Bibles in schools (5/22/2012 3:17:18 PM)

Bravo Winterapple!

I am not sure why people always get in a twist about any major piece of literature. It is better to read and understand than to dismiss and remain ignorant. I think it goes without saying if you have a class and you assign reading Mein Kampf and the speeches of people like Dr. King or JFK, most are not going to run out and become Nazis. I would contend for every quazi-Nazi you would get 3-4 who would strive for equality and greatness and the remaing 8-9 wouldn't give a rat's ass and remain numb to it all. And if you had nobody read it, you would have nothing but the TV generation we have now, people who don't care about anything. Why? you can't know good without evil, pain without pleasure.



erieangel -> RE: Dawkins says Yes to Bibles in schools (5/22/2012 3:41:51 PM)

I have no problem with the Bible being taught in public schools, so long as it balanced with other great works of the ancient world. The Gnostic works comes to mind. Or religious texts of other major religions. I don't have a problem with it, because to say that one book should be banned from our public schools is to say that others should be banned as well. A few years ago, I remember reading a group of parents wanting "The Adventures of Heckleberry Finn" banned not only from the school room but from the school library due to Mark Twain's use of the "N" word throughout the book.

Censorship just doesn't sit well with me. But the Bible in the public classroom shouldn't be taught in a religious sense, but in a historical and literary one.



PeonForHer -> RE: Dawkins says Yes to Bibles in schools (5/22/2012 3:57:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: erieangel

Censorship just doesn't sit well with me. But the Bible in the public classroom shouldn't be taught in a religious sense, but in a historical and literary one.



In all seriousness: I'd be happy for the Bible to be taught in schools, too - so long as the teachers did make a point of showing that a great deal of what's contained in it is, arguably, a lot of bollocks. It absolutely does *not* deserve the unquestioning reverence that it was given when it was taught to me at school and I certainly wouldn't want a child of mine (if I had one) to be taught about it in this way now.



Edwynn -> RE: Dawkins says Yes to Bibles in schools (5/22/2012 6:42:12 PM)

~FR~

People in the discussion need to distinguish between the bible being taught in schools as contemporary instruction to living or as instruction regarding history. The author quoted in the OP, being apparently of the self-indulgent sort, felt the greater need to have sport with it, which such distinction would have prevented.

In study of olden times it is easy to see how theocratic emphasis so distorted education, things being as they were, at the highest levels. But even then, we can thank a goodly number among the Medieval and ancien regime professors for keeping the flame of 'natural philosophy' alive, and the audience should note that the smarter among them could teach a large portion of whatever they liked to students who's college major was whatever variant of "Theocracy," given that it was essentially the only major offered. Call it the right name, title the major and the classes to make the imbecile (but sometimes fully aware and knowledgeable) subscribers and other financial supporters happy and then look what slips through.

In 100-500 year's time, there will be the same wonderment and instructional history regarding the existence of 'Political Science' classes and even majors in that pursuit in the universities, and the media's role as the vanguard of destruction.

Such media as present every freakin' cross or some display of the ten commandments in some small town city hall (as long as in SE USA, all other regions doing likewise ignored) as being a life changing or history turning event, or act as though their fucking soap opera rendition of domestic or world affairs is something that any thinking person is supposed to pay attention to ...

You know, like the utterly useless drivel from some twit quoted by such media that is incessantly promulgated as worth consideration of any sort.


Has my side won yet? That's all I want to know.





tweakabelle -> RE: Dawkins says Yes to Bibles in schools (5/22/2012 9:18:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

FR

I'm sorry to say that, amongst English educators, there's quite a widespread feeling that the Bible has no place in schools because it teaches unreason at a time when the kids are carefully being taught to value and to use reason. A couple of teachers I know have said that this in itself isn't a problem a) so long as the kids are old enough to have developed critical faculties (ie well beyond primary school age) and b) so long as a reliable, long-standing opposing worldview to that of the Bible is disseminated along with it. So, the aforementioned teacher is OK with Gove's idea, so long as Gove also supports giving each school a copy of Marx and Engels' Communist Manifesto. 'Nothing wrong with a bit of balance', he says. [:)]

I have some sympathy for your friend's perspective.

The Bible could be a useful resource in an English, history or comparative religion class. I would have all kinds of problems with the same text being used as an exclusive resource in a religion class in State-funded schools. If schools are going to accept State funding, then it's critical that they be non-sectarian.




fucktoyprincess -> RE: Dawkins says Yes to Bibles in schools (5/23/2012 8:51:33 AM)

I see where Dawkins is coming from, and I agree with the basic point that people should read underlying writings of not just their own religion, but other religions, too.

However, handing out the scripture of one particular religion seems to me on the surface, at least, an endorsement of that particular religion.

I do not think schoolchildren are capable of reading religious scripture of any religion objectively. Either they have been raised in a particular religion which will make them partial to their own religion, or they have been taught to discount the writings or teachings of other religions and will categorically reject other writings as being wrong without, in either case, actually engaging in the intellectual discourse necessary to really see what religious writings are. I think teaching critical analysis of religious writings is something best left to college age adults who are slightly better equipped to handle that kind of discourse.

I do find it alarming how many people have not taken the time to really read and engage in what is written in their religion's writings. [sm=2cents.gif]



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