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RE: Ironic or not? - 5/24/2012 7:04:47 PM   
gungadin09


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Politics? Racism is now politics? Seriously?


Um, yes, racism is politics, but I don't see why it matters here, since the heart of these attacks was the ARA's hatred of white supremacy- the ARA's political position that had nothing to do with the race of the members of the Illinois European Heritage Association. You said yourself, many of the victims and the assailants were the same race. The attack could not have been motivated by racism.

quote:

Show me where political views and racism are the same.


I will show you why racism is a kind of politics.

(from Wikipedia)
racism is... belief that different racial groups are characterized by intrinsic characteristics or abilities and some such groups are therefore naturally superior to others or as practices that discriminate against members of particular racial groups...

(from online merriam-webster)
politics- political affairs or business; especially: competition between competing interest groups or individuals for power and leadership (as in government).

So... politics is the movement of power in groups, and racism is the belief that certain racial groups are more entitled to power than others, up to the point of giving, or attempting to give, certain racial groups more power. So, yes, racism is a kind of political view.

quote:

These people were gathering together because they were members of the Illinois European Heritage Association...


Give me a break. The meeting was advertised on Stormfront (an online white nationalist newspaper) as the 5th annual White Nationalist Economic Summit.

quote:

Lastly, where are the "Reverends" Sharpton and Jackson?...I do know why they weren't here. That was completely tongue-in-cheek. It's the same reason they don't show up when a white person is attacked due to his/her being white. It is only when blacks are attacked by whites, or can be construed to be whites (you know, like the "white Hispanics/Latino's").


So, it makes sense that Sharpton and Jackson haven't chimed in on this one, since it was neither an attack of whites because they were white, or blacks because they were black, but rather an attack of a political group because of its political views.

quote:

The patrons of the diner were not doing anything wrong. Their ideas, if they are about white power, white supremacy, or pro Nazi, can be stupid, ignorant and divisive. Holding those opinions does not open them up for attack because of those beliefs.


Unfortunately, I have to agree.

Pam

< Message edited by gungadin09 -- 5/24/2012 7:56:43 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Ironic or not? - 5/24/2012 8:02:26 PM   
gungadin09


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
[Sidebar]
Pam, I want to commend you on using a face pic for your profile. You are not afraid to show who you are.
[/Sidebar]


Thanks for that. I hope it's true.

Pam

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Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Ironic or not? - 5/24/2012 8:14:34 PM   
Winterapple


Posts: 1343
Joined: 8/19/2011
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Idiot on idiot crime does occur.
Racism was not at the heart of this incident.
No one was attacked because of their race.
Some people with idiotic views were idiotically
attacked by some people who did nothing to help
their cause. Using stormtrooper tactics against the
storekeepers is of course tempting but at this point
they seem like rather small potatoes who can be
smashed in a more civilized fashion.
The Nazis can march in Skokie and eat out.
The only irony of the situation has nothing to do with
Al or Jesse.

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Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Ironic or not? - 5/24/2012 8:15:42 PM   
Winterapple


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Joined: 8/19/2011
Status: offline 		stormtrooper tactics against the stormtroopers not storekeepers
damned auto correct.

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Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Ironic or not? - 5/24/2012 8:59:57 PM   
DesideriScuri


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Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09
Um, yes, racism is politics, but I don't see why it matters here, since the heart of these attacks was the ARA's hatred of white supremacy- the ARA's political position that had nothing to do with the race of the members of the Illinois European Heritage Association. You said yourself, many of the victims and the assailants were the same race. The attack could not have been motivated by racism.


So, that this has to do with the white supremacy of one group means that racism isn't involved in this?

quote:

quote:

Show me where political views and racism are the same.

I will show you why racism is a kind of politics.
(from Wikipedia)
racism is... belief that different racial groups are characterized by intrinsic characteristics or abilities and some such groups are therefore naturally superior to others or as practices that discriminate against members of particular racial groups...
(from online merriam-webster)
politics- political affairs or business; especially: competition between competing interest groups or individuals for power and leadership (as in government).
So... politics is the movement of power in groups, and racism is the belief that certain racial groups are more entitled to power than others, up to the point of giving, or attempting to give, certain racial groups more power. So, yes, racism is a kind of political view.


Sorry, too much of a stretch for me there. They may technically, be linked, but you and I both know that this isn't politics as we use the term. And, if you're going to get into technical definitions, how about we start with the definition of "Interstate?"

quote:

quote:

These people were gathering together because they were members of the Illinois European Heritage Association...

Give me a break. The meeting was advertised on Stormfront (an online white nationalist newspaper) as the 5th annual White Nationalist Economic Summit.


Was that in the article I posted? No? Huh. Surprising that I didn't know about it, and I never said they weren't a white power group.

quote:

The patrons of the diner were not doing anything wrong. Their ideas, if they are about white power, white supremacy, or pro Nazi, can be stupid, ignorant and divisive. Holding those opinions does not open them up for attack because of those beliefs.

Unfortunately, I have to agree.


Disagree that it is unfortunate. We agree that white supremacists, or racists, in general, hold bigoted and wrong-headed beliefs.

quote:

ORIGINAL gungadin09
Thanks for that. I hope it's true.


I'm not sure what you're saying with that last statement.

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Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Ironic or not? - 5/24/2012 9:14:52 PM   
gungadin09


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09
So... politics is the movement of power in groups, and racism is the belief that certain racial groups are more entitled to power than others, up to the point of giving, or attempting to give, certain racial groups more power. So, yes, racism is a kind of political view.


Sorry, too much of a stretch for me there. They may technically, be linked, but you and I both know that this isn't politics as we use the term.


It is exactly how I use the term.

quote:


quote:

ORIGINAL gungadin09
Thanks for that. I hope it's true.


I'm not sure what you're saying with that last statement.


I was referring to your statement "You are not afraid to show who you are." I thank you, sincerely, and hope that you're correct.

Pam

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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Ironic or not? - 5/25/2012 8:29:58 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09
So... politics is the movement of power in groups, and racism is the belief that certain racial groups are more entitled to power than others, up to the point of giving, or attempting to give, certain racial groups more power. So, yes, racism is a kind of political view.

Sorry, too much of a stretch for me there. They may technically, be linked, but you and I both know that this isn't politics as we use the term.

It is exactly how I use the term.


And here is where mutually agreed upon definitions come into play. I do not consider race when it comes to politics and don't see race as a political issue, except for certain parties. If there is a white supremacist party, that would be political, for instance. The Neo Nazi party is political racism. But, for the everyday Joe, like me, politics and race aren't the same.

quote:

quote:


quote:

ORIGINAL gungadin09
Thanks for that. I hope it's true.

I'm not sure what you're saying with that last statement.

I was referring to your statement "You are not afraid to show who you are." I thank you, sincerely, and hope that you're correct.


Okay. You're welcome. And, unless that profile pic isn't a pic of you, you have proven that you aren't afraid to show yourself. Now, if we're talking about whether it is wise or not, I can't answer that. But, since I've also used a face pic for my profile, we're in the same boat in that.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to gungadin09)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Ironic or not? - 5/25/2012 1:00:12 PM   
Moonhead


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Joined: 9/21/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
But, for the everyday Joe, like me, politics and race aren't the same.

Prove it. Prove they aren't the same for you.

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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Ironic or not? - 5/25/2012 1:26:01 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
But, for the everyday Joe, like me, politics and race aren't the same.

Prove it. Prove they aren't the same for you.


I have voted for blacks, whites, and hispanics. Race meant nothing to me. Their politics, however, did.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Ironic or not? - 5/25/2012 1:39:17 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		That's hearsay, not proof.

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I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Ironic or not? - 5/25/2012 1:44:10 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		well, how about if he amended his cleverly worded bashing to read: ' .... Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Willard Romney,  and all the other republicans in the world...'  would that meet necessary and sufficient conditions for the proof? 

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Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Ironic or not? - 5/25/2012 1:47:12 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		BTW, for those of you who still don't quite have the flavor of it, that is irony.

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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Ironic or not? - 5/25/2012 7:49:51 PM   
DesideriScuri


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Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
That's hearsay, not proof.



Well, Moonhead. I don't know how to release my voting records to show you I've voted for various races. So, you'll just have to trust me that I have. The best man at my wedding was black (& he still is). At that time I paid little or no attention to politics, so it couldn't be about politics.

I do not believe that any race carries any particular political belief simply due to the color of their skin. I do not believe any national heritage is necessarily indicative of political bent, either.

But, there's no way for me to prove that, either. And, since you're likely to simply nitpick for the sake of nitpicking, I'm not even going to try. You won't accept it. I know the truth. You don't really care either way.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Ironic or not? - 5/25/2012 8:29:49 PM   
SternSkipper


Posts: 7546
Joined: 3/7/2004
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quote:

stormtrooper tactics against the stormtroopers not storekeepers
damned auto correct.


BS ... You meant storekeepers

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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Ironic or not? - 5/25/2012 9:49:58 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

http://news.yahoo.com/anti-racists-attack-white-heritage-group-family-restaurant-003220721--abc-news-topstories.html

18 people dressed in black and wearing masks barged into a Mom & Pop restaurant and attacked (they were armed with hammers and steel batons) another gathering of people.

The people gathered were members of the Illinois European Heritage Association. They are purported to be a "White Pride" group.

The people that attacked are connected to HARM (Hoosier Anti Racist Movement). Well, the 5 guys that were caught and detained are connected to HARM. The other 13 may or may not be.

Here's something I did "like" about the guys that were caught. They were white. So, at least 5 white guys were caught attacking a supposed white pride group. That speaks to their stance against racism.

But, here's what they were charged with:

    Five of the attackers were caught and have now been charged with aggravated battery, mob action and criminal damage to property, all felonies.


Now, I could be wrong, but racism was at the heart of these attacks, right? Doesn't that qualify these attacks as "hate crimes?" There was no mention of hate crime accusations, though it is clearly a case of an attack because of racism.

Lastly, where are the "Reverends" Sharpton and Jackson?


Ya know what?

I don't give a shit if they were white or black....what matters is....they were making a statement....and they were attempting to make it based on race.

THAT's fucked up.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 55
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