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RE: Alanon or AA and a submissive - 5/25/2012 12:43:49 PM   
kalikshama


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Twice I started to date men who had over 10 years sobriety and was unable to deal with their inflexible schedule due to meetings. I would think that after 10 years they'd be able to skip a Saturday night meeting or swap it for Sat AM. Then I started to see other instances of inflexibility...

(in reply to Hismouse)
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RE: Alanon or AA and a submissive - 5/26/2012 9:32:55 AM   
averyrealboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

Twice I started to date men who had over 10 years sobriety and was unable to deal with their inflexible schedule due to meetings. I would think that after 10 years they'd be able to skip a Saturday night meeting or swap it for Sat AM. Then I started to see other instances of inflexibility...


Time of sobriety has no bearing on whether or not they "skip a meeting". A missed meeting can lead to a relapse. As an active participant of NA and having done my 12 steps on many occasions it's not about time but more about what we call in the program "Life on life's terms" for an addict or alcoholic. my own personal thought process on this is that i am and always will be an addict. The choice is mine in how i deal with my addiction... i have 2 choices:

1) Allow my addiction to rule my life including that of my slavery (which i did for a long time before getting clean)
2) Make the decision to do something to reach out and try to make a better life through getting help from other addicts.

Having been on both sides of that coin i can say with no candor that i am enjoying my life being clean. i have seen and done things that i would not normally do when in my addiction. i no longer walk through the "haze" of life.

People make the choice to attend meetings on a daily basis because they believe that in order to remain clean and/or sober that's what they need to do. Maybe kanlikshama instead of using the word inflexibility you should have asked them why they prefer those meetings instead of changing? Maybe:

1) Their sponsor attends that meeting and it's the only time during that day they can meet with them to discuss issues and work on steps.
2) They have built a solid support group in that meeting.
3) They have made friends in that meeting and feel more comfortable sharing issues that they might not want to share with a new group.
4) They are uncomfortable about changing meetings and with new people?

Not to be harsh but i am being honest. Who are you to decide what meetings your partner should and should not go to? And do you realize that by making demands or even suggestions they change meetings you could be interfering with their recovery and ultimately be a factor in them having a relapse? It is their choice to pick up a drug or a drink and i know that very well. But there are also factors that can lead up to it. Sounds to me like you are being inflexible yourself. Just my pov though.

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RE: Alanon or AA and a submissive - 5/26/2012 9:42:39 AM   
littlewonder


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Personally I never had a problem with my partner attending the weekly AA meetings and I always scheduled around that because I would rather him be sober, safe, happy and making a life for himself than out there drinking or getting high and destroying our entire life together.

I always likened it to having a weekly boys night out the same as I would have a weekly girls night out. It was a couple of hours out of the week. No big deal.


< Message edited by littlewonder -- 5/26/2012 9:43:15 AM >


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RE: Alanon or AA and a submissive - 5/26/2012 10:02:26 AM   
averyrealboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

Personally I never had a problem with my partner attending the weekly AA meetings and I always scheduled around that because I would rather him be sober, safe, happy and making a life for himself than out there drinking or getting high and destroying our entire life together.

I always likened it to having a weekly boys night out the same as I would have a weekly girls night out. It was a couple of hours out of the week. No big deal.



i agree lil... it's not easy balancing work, home, meetings and the lifestyle... it's difficult at best.

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RE: Alanon or AA and a submissive - 5/26/2012 10:18:48 AM   
littlewonder


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Not really any different than balancing anything else in your life.

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RE: Alanon or AA and a submissive - 5/26/2012 10:49:32 AM   
kalikshama


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quote:

Who are you to decide what meetings your partner should and should not go to? And do you realize that by making demands or even suggestions they change meetings you could be interfering with their recovery and ultimately be a factor in them having a relapse? It is their choice to pick up a drug or a drink and i know that very well. But there are also factors that can lead up to it. Sounds to me like you are being inflexible yourself. Just my pov though.


I quit drinking 10 years into my marriage and if my husband had chosen to quit drinking as well I would have supported him to the fullest.

The men I mentioned weren't my partners; as I said, they were men I was dating. I decided that if they still needed that meeting so much after TEN years, that gave me enough information to let me know I didn't want to get further involved.

I've done supportive of girlfriends, housemates, and family members and am aware enough to make an educated decision in choice of partner.

(in reply to averyrealboy)
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RE: Alanon or AA and a submissive - 5/31/2012 1:52:08 AM   
Hismouse


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Thanks averyrealboy,
You said everything I know about why he goes, just hadn't put it into words. It is a very social network that they share, and all his friends are in recovery, They get a huge amount of support from another.

quote:

ORIGINAL: averyrealboy

Time of sobriety has no bearing on whether or not they "skip a meeting". A missed meeting can lead to a relapse. As an active participant of NA and having done my 12 steps on many occasions it's not about time but more about what we call in the program "Life on life's terms" for an addict or alcoholic. my own personal thought process on this is that i am and always will be an addict. The choice is mine in how i deal with my addiction... i have 2 choices:

1) Allow my addiction to rule my life including that of my slavery (which i did for a long time before getting clean)
2) Make the decision to do something to reach out and try to make a better life through getting help from other addicts.

Having been on both sides of that coin i can say with no candor that i am enjoying my life being clean. i have seen and done things that i would not normally do when in my addiction. i no longer walk through the "haze" of life.

People make the choice to attend meetings on a daily basis because they believe that in order to remain clean and/or sober that's what they need to do. Maybe kanlikshama instead of using the word inflexibility you should have asked them why they prefer those meetings instead of changing? Maybe:

1) Their sponsor attends that meeting and it's the only time during that day they can meet with them to discuss issues and work on steps.
2) They have built a solid support group in that meeting.
3) They have made friends in that meeting and feel more comfortable sharing issues that they might not want to share with a new group.
4) They are uncomfortable about changing meetings and with new people?

Not to be harsh but i am being honest. Who are you to decide what meetings your partner should and should not go to? And do you realize that by making demands or even suggestions they change meetings you could be interfering with their recovery and ultimately be a factor in them having a relapse? It is their choice to pick up a drug or a drink and i know that very well. But there are also factors that can lead up to it. Sounds to me like you are being inflexible yourself. Just my pov though.

(in reply to averyrealboy)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Alanon or AA and a submissive - 5/31/2012 1:58:45 AM   
Hismouse


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Thank you to all who replied. I too didn't really understand when I met him why he attended meetings after 20 years of being clean. I think some of the replies have made it clearer as to why people still attend meetings after being clean and sober after such a long period.

The fact that he attends meetings has never bothered me, there are worse places he could be. He likes to go, he gets something out of it, and it keeps him somewhat sane :-)

(in reply to kalikshama)
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RE: Alanon or AA and a submissive - 5/31/2012 2:40:54 PM   
littlewonder


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Exactly. Look at it as a friends' night out. Think about all the places he COULD be....sitting at a bar, getting drunk and scamming people from money playing pool or darts, getting into fights, getting arrested, wrecking his car and killing himself and/or another.

I proud of men who have groups like this. I like anyone who has such a tight knit social group. It's healthy.


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RE: Alanon or AA and a submissive - 5/31/2012 3:17:35 PM   
NuevaVida


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hismouse

Thank you to all who replied. I too didn't really understand when I met him why he attended meetings after 20 years of being clean. I think some of the replies have made it clearer as to why people still attend meetings after being clean and sober after such a long period.


That's awesome that you got some good insight from this thread.

My brother attends meetings. He began attending AA 24 years ago and went for about 10 years. Toward the end, he mostly spoke at them and mentored & sponsored others, and it was rewarding for him as well as invaluable for those he was helping. Over time he began attending less and less, then not at all. A wife and two kids, a job that had him working 50-60 hours a week, life, etc., shifted his priorities away. Two years ago he had a relapse, which scared the shit out of him and his wife. An addicts mind can go to the place of, "It's been so long, I'm not struggling anymore, I'm comfortable in my life, I bet I can handle it now - just this once" and then whamo - there they go. That's what happened to him. Fortunately after just a couple of months, he realized Holy Crap, he is NOT handling it, and got his ass back to meetings. I'm so proud of him for that.

quote:


The fact that he attends meetings has never bothered me, there are worse places he could be. He likes to go, he gets something out of it, and it keeps him somewhat sane :-)


Kudos to you that you are so supportive of him with that. When I see statements above like, "Why can't he just go to a morning meeting instead of the evening one" makes me think of my own WW meetings. I like the group I go to - we have a connection. We know each other now. THAT is the meeting I go to each week - the one on Tuesday afternoon. Picking me up and plopping me into a different meeting, just to convenience someone who doesn't need it like I do, would do me no good whatsoever. Different people, different dynamic, different energy, different group leader - I'd be in a foreign land. If my meeting doesn't fit in someone else's schedule, they can move along and I'm ok with that. But to say "Why don't you change groups" would offend me, and would be clear to me that he didn't understand the process.


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RE: Alanon or AA and a submissive - 5/31/2012 5:30:04 PM   
kalikshama


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I didn't mean change groups permanently - for example, one time a band we both liked was playing and another time I had a four day weekend. After TEN years, I would think they'd be able to skip from time to time.

Of course, I quit after going to a handful of Rational Recovery meetings, so yes, I guess I don't understand the AA process.

(in reply to NuevaVida)
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RE: Alanon or AA and a submissive - 5/31/2012 5:43:51 PM   
frazzle


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Kalik, its like saying skip your insulin today if you're diabetic, it cant be done for most, without severe consequences.

(this from someone who watched her 36 year old partner die from alcohol abuse)


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RE: Alanon or AA and a submissive - 5/31/2012 6:12:16 PM   
kalikshama


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I'm sorry about your partner. My ex lost his brother to alcohol-related issues.

I don't believe in the "alcoholism as a disease" model but for people for whom this works, don't read on.

Addiction is NOT a Brain Disease, It is a Choice

...In a true disease, some part of the body is in a state of abnormal physiological functioning, and this causes the undesirable symptoms. In the case of cancer, it would be mutated cells which we point to as evidence of a physiological abnormality, in diabetes we can point to low insulin production or cells which fail to use insulin properly as the physiological abnormality which create the harmful symptoms. If a person has either of these diseases, they cannot directly choose to stop their symptoms or directly choose to stop the abnormal physiological functioning which creates the symptoms. They can only choose to stop the physiological abnormality indirectly, by the application of medical treatment, and in the case of diabetes, dietetic measures may also indirectly halt the symptoms as well (but such measures are not a cure so much as a lifestyle adjustment necessitated by permanent physiological malfunction).

In addiction, there is no such physiological malfunction.

...Drug use in “addicts” is not compulsive. If it was truly compulsive, then offering a drug user tickets to the movies would not make a difference in whether they use or not – because this is an offer of a choice. Research shows that the offer of this choice leads to cessation of substance abuse. Furthermore, to clarify the point, if you offered a cancer patient movie tickets as a reward for ceasing to have a tumor – it would make no difference, it would not change his probability of recovery.

Addiction is NOT a disease, and it matters, as we’ll learn on the next page that this has huge implications for anyone struggling with a substance use habit.

References:
NIDA, Drugs Brains and Behavior: The Science of Addiction, sciofaddiction.pdf
Sharon Begley, Scans of Monks’ Brains Show Meditation Alters Structure, Functioning, Wall Street Journal, November 5, 2004; Page B1, http://psyphz.psych.wisc.edu/web/News/Meditation_Alters_Brain_WSJ_11-04.htm
Gene Heyman, Addiction: A Disorder of Choice, Harvard University Press, 2009
Sharon Begley and Jeffrey Schwartz, The Mind And The Brain, Harper Collins, 2002

Why Does It Matter Whether or Not Addiction Is A Brain Disease?

When we accept the unproven view that addiction and alcoholism are brain diseases, then it will lead us down a long, painful, costly, and pointless road of cycling in and out of ineffective treatment programs and 12 step meetings. You will waste a lot of time without finding a permanent solution. When we examine the evidence, throw out the false disease concepts, and think rationally about the problem we can see that addiction is really just a matter of choice. Knowing this, we can bypass the rehabs, and find the true solution within ourselves. You can choose to end your addiction. You can choose to improv your life. You can choose to stop the endless cycle of “recovery” and start living. You don’t need to be a victim of the self-fulfilling prophecy that is the brain disease model of addiction. There are alternative views and methods of change which I hope you’ll take the time to learn about on The Clean Slate Addiction Site.

How To End Addiction, Substance Dependence, Substance Abuse, Alcoholism, and General Drug and Alcohol Problems

Due to the fact that most conventional rehab and addiction treatment programs follow the false belief that addiction is a disease, they are generally not effective at dealing with these problems – so I really can’t ethically recommend any “treatment” programs other than a run of the mill detoxification procedure if you feel you may be experiencing physical withdrawal symptoms – you can find that through your local hospital, by asking your primary care doctor, or by calling 911 if you feel your life is in danger due to withdrawal (beware that withdrawal from alcohol and some prescription drugs such as the class known as benzodiazepines can lead to fatal seizures). But what comes after detoxification is simply personal choices, and treatment programs actually discourage productive personal choices by attempting to control people and feeding them nonsensical theories such as the disease theory and powerlessness.

If you want to end or alter your own substance use habits you need only to make different choices, and commit to new choices for a long enough time that they become habitual, or your new norm.

Read more: http://www.thecleanslate.org/myths/addiction-is-not-a-brain-disease-it-is-a-choice/


< Message edited by kalikshama -- 5/31/2012 6:14:46 PM >

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RE: Alanon or AA and a submissive - 5/31/2012 7:11:16 PM   
NuevaVida


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

I didn't mean change groups permanently - for example, one time a band we both liked was playing and another time I had a four day weekend. After TEN years, I would think they'd be able to skip from time to time.

Of course, I quit after going to a handful of Rational Recovery meetings, so yes, I guess I don't understand the AA process.

I think the real issue was his prioritizing the meetings over you. That's a hard pill to swallow sometimes, whether it's an AA meeting or something else. I know I sometimes struggle with being prioritized under something I don't see as very important. But it's important to him, so I respect that.

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RE: Alanon or AA and a submissive - 6/1/2012 6:59:33 AM   
kalikshama


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Yes, I want to be the priority in a relationship. That's why I don't date men with custody of minor children. I think their children should be their priority, and I respect that, but it makes them incompatible with me. It's also while I am inclined towards poly, I would never join an existing couple.

(in reply to NuevaVida)
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RE: Alanon or AA and a submissive - 6/1/2012 7:26:42 AM   
NuevaVida


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Joined: 8/5/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

Yes, I want to be the priority in a relationship. That's why I don't date men with custody of minor children. I think their children should be their priority, and I respect that, but it makes them incompatible with me. It's also while I am inclined towards poly, I would never join an existing couple.

I totally understand that (especially the part about custody of minor children!). So the issue here isn't "Why can't he just change or skip a meeting here or there", it's that you don't want to be with someone who might have things in life that take priority over you/his relationship.

I appreciate your response, thank you.

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RE: Alanon or AA and a submissive - 6/1/2012 8:19:31 AM   
kalikshama


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Close enough for this thread :)

(in reply to NuevaVida)
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RE: Alanon or AA and a submissive - 6/1/2012 9:19:23 AM   
NuevaVida


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Joined: 8/5/2008
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_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Alanon or AA and a submissive - 6/18/2012 7:31:13 AM   
TheRyan7


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Ive been to both AA and NA. Personally AA put me to sleep everytime. And I could relate more to NA. So I stuck with NA. I remember doing the 12 steps and man was that shit hard. I think altogether I did 144 steps. I havent been to a meeting in quite some time but Ive been clean for over 3 years. (Woohoo). At the time I was suing I wasnt submissive or dominant I was just high lol.

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RE: Alanon or AA and a submissive - 6/18/2012 7:35:11 AM   
TheRyan7


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You know those people who write that crap most likely never got high before.

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