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RE: Memorial Day /Is health care a Privilege or a Right... - 5/24/2012 9:18:38 PM   
Marini


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fellow

Health care certainly is a right. In case you are sick, preventing you to cure yourself would be a criminal offense. I think, the discussion should be one level up, more specific.  It comes down how nation's resources are allocated. To say the government does not care about public health would be a lie. The US government spends per capita almost equal amount of public funds on health care compared to the other industrial nations.  The problem is idiocracy. Ho to cure this, I am not sure. Total recall and replacement instead of endless debates designed to protect status quo? 


I don't see what I am asking as an endless debate.
If enough people see it as a "RIGHT", and rise up, and do something
about it {as they eventually will}, than it will become a reality.

Why should I attempt or even try to figure out where the money is coming from?
We have money for every other damn thing, that HAS to be funded.
We fund the schools, the wars, the prisons, foreign aid, and everything else that HAS to be funded.
When healthcare joins the list below, it will be funded like everything else in the pie chart.
US Government Spending
Maybe they can "take" money from another area, work it out.


Either it is a "RIGHT" or it is not a "RIGHT".
IF it is legally a "RIGHT", coverage will HAVE to be provided.
If it is a "Privilege" oh well.

We can't even move on to funding, until it is finally/legally/and absolutely stated that health care is a "RIGHT" in this country.
Peace

< Message edited by Marini -- 5/24/2012 9:45:11 PM >

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to Fellow)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Memorial Day /Is health care a Privilege or a Right... - 5/24/2012 11:35:07 PM   
epiphiny43


Posts: 688
Joined: 10/20/2006
Status: offline 		Someone observed America is the land where you have the right to all the Real Estate, health care and justice you can afford.
I don't like arguments of 'rights' or appeals to people's spiritual side. Assuming the average voter/consumer has much of one. I believe, as Henry Kaiser experimented with and found most useful when building the Hoover Dam, a functional society has an integrated health care program for all it's people. Simple economics and group morale are arguments enough. We can barely afford the necessary infrastructure to move forward with the advance in civilization and the dead weight of a dysfunctional and totally unaffordable 'private' health care system with so many useless parasites sucking the life out of the system Will sink our country.
The whole legal tort system, insurance for profit, useless bureaucracies that purport to regulate but only skim graft or serve as office holders afraid to rock the boat till retirement and the whole Big Pharm industry with useless drugs and advertising as much or more a part of the expense as research and testing are sucking the life out of our society. Almost no new drugs this decade have been real improvements when existing treatments were available. I'm wondering why the US consumer buys 90% of the pain medications sold on the planet? The wussy country, or a whole system manipulated wherever possible for profit? The FDA who are tasked with regulating our food and medicine for safety and function are more developers for bureaucrats who move to industry once they know how to finesse the system.
The Marines are fairly good at what they do. Not because of the income the members make, but because of the sense of mission and esprit de corps. Dump the AMA whose only stated mission is to 'protect the incomes of physicians' and get some people who care about health and healing building a system that intends to serve everyone well. Might have to jail Congress. . .

(in reply to Fellow)
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RE: Memorial Day /Is health care a Privilege or a Right... - 5/25/2012 12:28:01 AM   
epiphiny43


Posts: 688
Joined: 10/20/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fellow

Health care certainly is a right. In case you are sick, preventing you to cure yourself would be a criminal offense. I think, the discussion should be one level up, more specific.  It comes down how nation's resources are allocated. To say the government does not care about public health would be a lie. The US government spends per capita almost equal amount of public funds on health care compared to the other industrial nations.  The problem is idiocracy. Ho to cure this, I am not sure. Total recall and replacement instead of endless debates designed to protect status quo? 

Not to argue with any of your points or conclusions, which I largely agree, but I believe your economics are way off. The US is behind all the other First World Countries as far as it's health care system goes. With the exception of the marginally First World New Zealand and the emerging South Korea. We only are a bit better than Cuba! Which has major problems largely from the long term US boycott and virtual blockade.
The only useful financial metric is the total cost of the system to the consumer and economy; taxes, insurance, 'co-pays', direct billing and 'other' system money extracted from our pockets. The US system is by far the most expensive per citizen. Between 3 times and 1/3 more costly per capita, depending on the study, than the widely vilified UK system, which delivers better care by almost every standard than the US.

(in reply to Fellow)
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RE: Memorial Day /Is health care a Privilege or a Right... - 5/25/2012 1:24:26 AM   
Kirata


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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

Is health care a privilege or a right?

I think the question grabs the wrong end of the stick. I don't think anybody has a "right" to demand that others provide them with care. But in my view, whether or not they have a "right" to it is immaterial. We, as a society, have a DUTY to care.

K.

(in reply to Marini)
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RE: Memorial Day /Is health care a Privilege or a Right... - 5/25/2012 4:08:38 AM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline 		FR

Add my name to the list of those who can't be bothered to argue about 'rights' v 'privileges'. For me, as an outsider, this matter goes to the core of what it means to evolve as a society. That is: it seems almost pointless to evolve to become so advanced in so many other ways, yet to leave the matter of health care so far behind. Really, what is the point in putting so much cash into developing, say, systems to prevent the killing of Americans by terrorists if so many Americans are dying because they can't afford the requisite health-care?

_____________________________

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RE: Memorial Day /Is health care a Privilege or a Right... - 5/25/2012 4:43:51 AM   
Yachtie


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Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
I don't think anybody has a "right" to demand that others provide them with care.

We, as a society, have a DUTY to care.


How does a society achieve the second without trampling the first? Put another way, on what basis does a society impose a duty on the individual who holds the right to not be so imposed?

Edit: If society has the [............] to impose such a duty, and as that duty comes at a cost is it not also the duty of society to minimize costs (i.e. outlawing improper behaviors which raise costs) at every opportunity (so as to not divert more than absolutely necessary from other societal needs)? Such I believe is the case and therefore what must be imposed is a totally designed society. Welcome to dystopia.





< Message edited by Yachtie -- 5/25/2012 5:22:26 AM >

_____________________________

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“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

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RE: Memorial Day /Is health care a Privilege or a Right... - 5/25/2012 5:24:54 AM   
RemoteUser


Posts: 2854
Joined: 5/10/2011
Status: offline 		Y'all need social care. It's that massive debt that stops you dead in your tracks.

Economics aside, you should still go with a social model. Don't use our model in Canada, it's half broke from idiot politicians who underfund to cover their asses when it's time to vote ("no new taxes!"). The other half of the broke comes from not investing manpower; over half of the doctors trained in Canada don't stay here because they are from somewhere else, often sent over for our education but not sticking around after. I think it's Iceland where you get dirt cheap quality education on the condition you practice there for x years afterwards. Seems fair to me.

Any argument I have ever heard in favour of private care has come from American friends I have who can afford it. The ones who can't, well, I know a lot of them too, and they don't complain (much) about their lot. Instead they stare blankly at $12,000 bills for having a broken leg, which doesn't even factor in lost income from being limited in mobility. That's not progress, that's greed, right there, with nothing clever to justify it.

_____________________________

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RE: Memorial Day Question /Is health care a Privilege o... - 5/25/2012 12:16:07 PM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
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quote:

36 Costa Rica
37 USA


In 2003, I went into anaphylactic shock after being stung by bees, so naturally, when stung by a scorpion in Costa Rica, I was concerned, especially as I was in a town with no phone service, let alone medical services. I'm sure there were clinics along the way, but the nearest hospital was three hours away (by a once daily bus - we had no cars.) Apparently, I produced enough adrenaline by myself to eliminate the need for a shot of epinephrine.

So after my brush with almost needing healthcare in Costa Rica, I am Not Amused to see the Unites States below it.

Fortunately for me, as a veteran, I do have a right to healthcare, but I gave something in exchange for that benefit.

I am for the Affordable Care Act although I feel it didn't go far enough (from what I know if it from wikipedia, etc; I certainly do not claim to have read the whole thing), but am not comfortable declaring health care a right at this stage in the discussion.

I do like what Kirata had to say about Duty and Peon about evolved societies:

quote:

I think the question grabs the wrong end of the stick. I don't think anybody has a "right" to demand that others provide them with care. But in my view, whether or not they have a "right" to it is immaterial. We, as a society, have a DUTY to care.


quote:

For me, as an outsider, this matter goes to the core of what it means to evolve as a society. That is: it seems almost pointless to evolve to become so advanced in so many other ways, yet to leave the matter of health care so far behind. Really, what is the point in putting so much cash into developing, say, systems to prevent the killing of Americans by terrorists if so many Americans are dying because they can't afford the requisite health-care?


(in reply to Marini)
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RE: Memorial Day Question /Is health care a Privilege o... - 5/25/2012 12:19:28 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

How is this a "Memorial Day Question"?

Getting better care for our Veterans--that's a Memorial Day Question.

YES!!!!!!!!!!

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RE: Memorial Day /Is health care a Privilege or a Right... - 5/25/2012 1:38:25 PM   
Marini


Posts: 3629
Joined: 2/14/2010
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quote:

How does a society achieve the second without trampling the first? Put another way, on what basis does a society impose a duty on the individual who holds the right to not be so imposed?

Edit: If society has the [............] to impose such a duty, and as that duty comes at a cost is it not also the duty of society to minimize costs (i.e. outlawing improper behaviors which raise costs) at every opportunity (so as to not divert more than absolutely necessary from other societal needs)? Such I believe is the case and therefore what must be imposed is a totally designed society. Welcome to dystopia.





Bingo, it's good to be clear around here, or you end up with pages full of dialogue that never get's to any real point.

We can change the "term", and debate the "terminology/semantics" on another thread.

Call it: obligation, duty, responsibility, charge, etc.

The point is, until America legally declares we indeed have the "RIGHT" to health care, and a national health care system, it is not a RIGHT.

Legally until it is a "RIGHT" as an American citizen, it will not happen.

PEACE

< Message edited by Marini -- 5/25/2012 1:45:37 PM >

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Memorial Day Question /Is health care a Privilege o... - 5/25/2012 1:55:32 PM   
thompsonx


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Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

It means I don't care whether you call it a right or a privilege.



Perhaps a dictionary would help you conclude that the two words are mutually exclusive.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Memorial Day Question /Is health care a Privilege o... - 5/25/2012 2:01:23 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Or it could help you realize I'm not required to frame an argument in your terms.

Boss, n. -- nope, not my boss.
Client, n. -- nope, not my client.
Prospect, no. -- nope not someone I'd want as a prospect.

Guess I get to have my own thoughts. You squabble over semantics. You didn't bother to quote the part that shared my views.

Go away.

(in reply to thompsonx)
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RE: Memorial Day /Is health care a Privilege or a Right... - 5/25/2012 2:07:47 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

Is health care a privilege or a right?

I think the question grabs the wrong end of the stick. I don't think anybody has a "right" to demand that others provide them with care.



Do we not demand that others provide us with police and fire protection?
Your statement above implies that those on the recieving end of the medical services are not themselves contributors to it's maintaience.


quote:

But in my view, whether or not they have a "right" to it is immaterial. We, as a society, have a DUTY to care.

K.


I believe that we, as a society, have a duty to recognize and enforce this right.


< Message edited by thompsonx -- 5/25/2012 2:26:26 PM >

(in reply to Kirata)
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RE: Memorial Day /Is health care a Privilege or a Right... - 5/25/2012 2:11:05 PM   
Marini


Posts: 3629
Joined: 2/14/2010
Status: offline
quote:

I believe that we, as a society, have a duty to recognize and enforce this right.



Thank you for understanding, why I asked the question, "Is it a right?"

We have had endless/if not hundreds of threads debating morality, should have it, it would be nice, etc.

Either we have a "RIGHT" to healthcare, or we do not.

Bottom Line::::: IS IT A RIGHT?

Peace

< Message edited by Marini -- 5/25/2012 2:18:10 PM >

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Memorial Day /Is health care a Privilege or a Right... - 5/25/2012 2:25:13 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
I don't think anybody has a "right" to demand that others provide them with care.

We, as a society, have a DUTY to care.


How does a society achieve the second without trampling the first? Put another way, on what basis does a society impose a duty on the individual who holds the right to not be so imposed?



False analogy. Does the fifth ammendment trample on the first ammendment.

quote:

Edit: If society has the [............] to impose such a duty, and as that duty comes at a cost is it not also the duty of society to minimize costs (i.e. outlawing improper behaviors which raise costs)


The second ammendment recognizes our right to bear arms. We have laws which prohibit those who own firearms from sticking up banks. We pay the police to enforce those prohibitions. Your arguement would seem to be calling for the ways to lower the cost of the police.
How are the two concepts different in your mind?
If you want to attach "improper behavior" to health care what would you feel constitutes improper behavior? If they are not prohibited activities like bank robery how then did you arrive at them being improper behavior. Should a gun owner be denied their right to posses because, through negligence, they lost a weapon and now has cost the system by filing a police report and having the police spend valuable time looking for the lost weapon?




quote:

at every opportunity (so as to not divert more than absolutely necessary from other societal needs)? Such I believe is the case and therefore what must be imposed is a totally designed society. Welcome to dystopia.


False premis invarably leads to a false conclusion





(in reply to Yachtie)
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RE: Memorial Day /Is health care a Privilege or a Right... - 5/25/2012 2:39:07 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		I think it is neither a privilege nor a right…but a choice. If anyone chooses to purchase health insurance it should be made affordable even if partially subsidized by our government.

There should also be provisions by our government to provide basic catastrophic insurance to those receiving government aid. Children below the age of consent, if the parents or guardian cannot afford to purchase insurance, should also be provided basic healthcare at no cost.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Marini)
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RE: Memorial Day /Is health care a Privilege or a Right... - 5/25/2012 2:47:24 PM   
Marini


Posts: 3629
Joined: 2/14/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I think it is neither a privilege nor a right…but a choice. If anyone chooses to purchase health insurance it should be made affordable even if partially subsidized by our government.

There should also be provisions by our government to provide basic catastrophic insurance to those receiving government aid. Children below the age of consent, if the parents or guardian cannot afford to purchase insurance, should also be provided basic healthcare at no cost.

Butch


Butch, I am going to put you down as a "NO".
I think you are the first person that has posted that say's "NO" so far.
What about the millions of "adults" that work part time, or have jobs that don't provide insurance, and can't afford to "buy" insurance, but don't qualify for Medicaid?
Thank you!

< Message edited by Marini -- 5/25/2012 2:53:54 PM >

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Memorial Day Question /Is health care a Privilege o... - 5/25/2012 2:55:39 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Or it could help you realize I'm not required to frame an argument in your terms.


My disagreement was not with the grammar but with the lexicon. I thought that was clear...obviously not.

quote:

Boss, n. -- nope, not my boss.
Client, n. -- nope, not my client.
Prospect, no. -- nope not someone I'd want as a prospect.

Guess I get to have my own thoughts. You squabble over semantics. You didn't bother to quote the part that shared my views.


Our points of common agreement are manifest to all who post here with any seriousness.
It is not my practice to pat men on the ass just because they agree with me.

Go away.


(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Memorial Day /Is health care a Privilege or a Right... - 5/25/2012 3:23:08 PM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini
Either we have a "RIGHT" to healthcare, or we do not.

Bottom Line::::: IS IT A RIGHT?



First things first. Just what is a right? I'll put it this way, within context as being discussed, "Only if you have the right to pick your neighbor's pocket sans governmental authority (license)". This would be to the same degree as drawing breath.

Black's Law Dict. 6th. Ed. defines License as "permission by a competent authority to do that which would otherwise be illegal, a trespass or a tort".

Does government have the authority to mandate some form of ~universal healthcare? That's debatable but for yucks lets say yes. If it requires some act by a competent authority to accomplish such, paid for by mandated participation of all, would it also be legal to pick your neighbor's pocket to pay for some of your healthcare sans said government mandate (act)? If the answer is no, then said within context healthcare is no right but a privilege by legislation.








< Message edited by Yachtie -- 5/25/2012 3:31:10 PM >

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to Marini)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Memorial Day /Is health care a Privilege or a Right... - 5/25/2012 3:35:23 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I think it is neither a privilege nor a right…but a choice. If anyone chooses to purchase health insurance it should be made affordable even if partially subsidized by our government.

There should also be provisions by our government to provide basic catastrophic insurance to those receiving government aid. Children below the age of consent, if the parents or guardian cannot afford to purchase insurance, should also be provided basic healthcare at no cost.

Butch


The constitution gives our representatves the authority and the power to tax us. The difference beween what we have now and what is more economical and effecient is the profit motive. Our taxes go to pay for fire protection. The fire department is a not for profit construct of the people. It is a service that the people have decided should not be run as a for profit enterprise. If we as a society feel that healthy people are better for our society than unhealthy people then we have a right to make that a reality. Just as we have a right to feel relatively safe in case of a fire. If the neighbor down he block has a house fire there is a pretty good chance the local f/d will have it knocked down before it leaves the property line. I live in a remote area and am my own fire department...the fact that I get no benifit from the f/d should not require me to demand my money back. If one makes medical care not for profit then you have only the actual costs of the services. This would of course be an economic reason to have it different thn it is now.
It is the nature of corporations to seek economies of scale is it not? Thus we have this corp merging with that corp and availing the larger organism the advantages of these economie of scale.
Fire departments work the same way. Because of the economies of scale in training and standardization of equipment and technique you can hire these guys for a fraction of the cost of for profit f/d. About 50 miles from me are the "skunk works" bldg 42 has a private f/d for obvious reasons. The cost difference is more than ten orders of magnitude.
This price differential is not related to skills.
You constantly carp that the govt could not wipe its ass with out help. Yet you brag about how hot shit our military hardware is. If the govt is quallified to make nuclear weapons and mach 25 aircraft medical services might also fit in their abilities.
Congress and I share a pretty similar health plan. compared to what I have you could'nt give me blue cross for free.
Go on line and look at the per capita cost in those countries that have not for profit medical services. Compare the cost and the coverage.
Please do not ask me what to do for all of those who will become unemployed if this happens until you have compiled a list of just which of them deserves any of my concern.
It is an economic decission...
Whether it is a right or a priviledge is an ethical question.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 40
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