Culture and Attitude? (Full Version)

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jackparrow -> Culture and Attitude? (6/1/2012 4:31:03 AM)

I am very curious as I search through this site, I have lurked around off and on and this is my first post on the message board.
I am quite young, (both in society and relative to the community), so please forgive my ignorance.

It appears many people in their profiles write incredibly aggressively, or excessively passively. On more than one occassion I have had indivuals beg me to abuse them, or call me sir in their first text.

Now I value unquestioning obedience as much of the next guy, but I also feel to be truly dominant it must be earned.

It is my view a truly successful dom would be able to assert dominance not with the end of a paddle (or whatever you have close at hand) but with a word, presence, an aurora, where the submissive agrees out of respect and fear of disappointment.

A relationship and understanding like this would take time would it not? and to have a "slave" or "sub" who would submit to anyone would make them the "dom" because they can choose when to stop listening.

I have been guilty of very romantic, and ideological thought according to my philosophy professors so maybe I am completely wrong, and have no idea of a traditional dom/sub relationship

The end question is, is the chest thumping, stick beating, and the ass kissing, lip service, a central etiquette in the beginning of a bdsm relation and part of bdsm culture, or is it just an attitude portrayed by some outsiders?



ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Culture and Attitude? (6/1/2012 4:51:09 AM)

Welcome to the discussion side of CM, Jack.

What a wonderfully thoughtful first post !!

You are entirely correct in your assumption that BDSM relationships are like any other relationships. You see someone you like and are attracted to, and you move toward a relationship by spending as much time as you can with them and getting to know them. If they are kinky, part of that *will* be the kinky side.

But I am here to tell you, sex is not all there is to any relationship, nor is kink. It's always going to be about MUTUAL attraction, affection, and important things in common like ethics, ways of spending free time, etc.

What you are seeing in the instant sub and dom posts is a phenomena created by the internet, in which clueless people think calling someone Sir or sub will create some shortcut to a relationship.

My advice: know who you are, be who you are, and at your young age feel free to explore all of life's many options, including the kinky ones.

Best, CP



jackparrow -> RE: Culture and Attitude? (6/1/2012 4:54:54 AM)

Thanks a bunch! I appreciate the response!




DarkSteven -> RE: Culture and Attitude? (6/1/2012 5:15:01 AM)

Hi there, Jack. Welcome to collarme.

1. You're trying to deduce how the lifestyle works from online profiles. I'd suggest that going to munches and groups will give you a better representation.
2. 90+% of the unsolicited messages I get are from "women" that call me Master right off the bat, and are transparent attempts to scam me. They're obviously not representative of the lifestyle.
3. There is a small subculture called Gorean where Dom men are routinely called Master.
4. When you talk of excessively passive or aggressive profiles, are you referring to sub or Dom/me profiles, respectively? Have you noticed any correlation between gender and what you consider excessiveness?

Please understand that you and I speak different languages. You, as a soulful liberal arts type, speak in terms of overall impressions. I, as a soulless engineer type, speak in direct specifics and will boil down your post to its specific points. They are:
A. Should protocol be established instantly upon first contact or subsequently?
B. Is excessive passiveness/aggressiveness typical within a profile?
C. Is the "chest thumping, stick beating, and the ass kissing, lip service" standard etiquette?

Okay.

A. IMO, protocol should be established when the relationship begins. Definitely by the time of a collaring. That said, I have known some subs to refer to me as Sir well before a relationship was established, and to show me more respect than I felt I was due at that point. So be it.
B. I try to keep an open mind, but the excessiveness in a profile, which you described, bugs me. That said, some have humiliation fetishes, and some fin Dommes use excessiveness to signal to prospective sub males that they will do humiliation. That's one of the reasons I asked about gender. Please note that I have one online friend with whom I exchange horrible profiles with, and we've seen some doozies.
C. The lifestylers I have known do not thump their chests (especially the women) but have a quiet confidence. Stick beating is central to most D/s relationships. What you describe as ass kissing and lip service is protocol and individual for each relationship. My sub and I are very relaxed, although she does call me Sir at lifestyle functions, and fetch me water, etc. OTOH, there are high protocol groups that require formal dress, etc. at certain functions.

And, Jack, you didn't ask for this but why major in liberal arts? The job market for them is weak and you're being taught to write in generalities instead of specifics - that's gonna hurt you in the job market. Take some techie courses - if you're going to stay with your major, take a probability and statistics course or two so you can deal with data.




jackparrow -> RE: Culture and Attitude? (6/1/2012 5:47:04 AM)

Thank you for the response,

I understand the stick beatings and I agree it is a fun and central part of bdsm, I guess my impression, has always been of the establishment of protocol isn't automatic, however I have seen in on both men and woman's profiles equally, I was just taken back about messages from individuals calling me sir before I have spoken to them, for all they know I could be a twelve year old and his buddies, out for a laugh, but then after evaluation I thought maybe its a formality, which is why I phrased the question, If I approach a dom/me should I call them sir/mistress, even if I don't know if I am interested as of yet, and like wise should I use insulting language towards subs if it is in their profile. As I am new I am trying to understand the etiquette,

I have noticed some are obvious attempts to scam but others seem to be legitimate and thought out, which is why I phrased the question

I will admit and apologize for speaking down to it, as a new member it really isn't my place, and as a romantic, it confuses me, and sometimes when people are confused they don't use the best of language, although I did place a substantial amount of thought into the post in an attempt to receive an objective response, and I am grateful to you Steven, and CP

As for philosophy, first and for most it is a passion for myself. Also in the current job market here in Canada it is one of the new IT degrees being hired by the fortune 500, also upon graduation most philosophers are the highest earners in the liberal arts, and I think, on average are earn higher than even engineers this is because, unlike most degrees in Canada and arguably the US it is one of the few that you cannot cheat your way through (or as easily) as it requires you to generate your own thoughts. It also teaches you great problem solving skills, the ability to construct deliberate and well thought out arguments, and to convince people with simple minds to do things that you want them to do by appealing to fallacies, which are frowned upon in academia but wonderful for marketing, law, and moving through the corporate ladder. I was formerly a biomedical science student and after 3 years I realized it was not a love for me, and I was tired of the corruption, sometimes you are placed in a situation where you can either burn it to the ground, or leave, in 5 years I will be graduating with an honours in philosophy and a BSC (two separate).

Also in Canada the engineering field is over saturated due to have the foresight of law and medicine to keep a limit on the number of degrees created in a year.
Similarly university degrees are useless either way because all they prove (if you've graduated since 95 onward) is you can show up and jump through a couple hoops much like how high school was for entry level work in the 50s but that is a completely different rant entirely






kanina -> RE: Culture and Attitude? (6/1/2012 6:28:11 AM)

I do agree, that respect is not automatic, and I do treat all people equal and with the respect that every human being requires, but I'm not a fan of protocol.



kalikshama -> RE: Culture and Attitude? (6/1/2012 6:28:38 AM)

quote:

What you are seeing in the instant sub and dom posts is a phenomena created by the internet, in which clueless people think calling someone Sir or sub will create some shortcut to a relationship.


+1



kalikshama -> RE: Culture and Attitude? (6/1/2012 6:47:35 AM)

quote:

I, as a soulless engineer type, speak in direct specifics and will boil down your post to its specific points.


While I've long noticed that you are exceedingly skilled at getting to the heart of the matter, I've never attributed that to a lack of a soul [:D]



DarkSteven -> RE: Culture and Attitude? (6/1/2012 6:55:11 AM)

I sold it to Old Scratch many years ago.



OsideGirl -> RE: Culture and Attitude? (6/1/2012 7:10:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jackparrow


Now I value unquestioning obedience as much of the next guy,



Unquestioning obedience means they follow you even when you're wrong, even if they know you're wrong. Personally, I prefer to have a partner that points out pitfalls before I step into them.



Kana -> RE: Culture and Attitude? (6/1/2012 7:47:44 AM)

quote:

It is my view a truly successful dom would be able to assert dominance not with the end of a paddle (or whatever you have close at hand) but with a word, presence, an aurora, where the submissive agrees out of respect and fear of disappointment.


Yes



JeffBC -> RE: Culture and Attitude? (6/1/2012 8:21:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jackparrow
The end question is, is the chest thumping, stick beating, and the ass kissing, lip service, a central etiquette in the beginning of a bdsm relation and part of bdsm culture, or is it just an attitude portrayed by some outsiders?

No. Put simply, YOU are the central tenant of any BDSM relationship you are in seeing as YOU are the dom, right?

There is no "traditional dom/sub relationship". There are no standards and no rules. There's just you and some S-type who finds you attractive.

All the things you mentioned, however, are not simply things portrayed by outsiders. There is some segment that wants that sort of a start to a relationship. Those people are not compatible with me and, I presume from your post, you too.



TNDommeK -> RE: Culture and Attitude? (6/1/2012 12:39:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: jackparrow


Now I value unquestioning obedience as much of the next guy,



Unquestioning obedience means they follow you even when you're wrong, even if they know you're wrong. Personally, I prefer to have a partner that points out pitfalls before I step into them.


That reminds Me of something I read on a profile that said" when I'm right, I'm right. When I'm wrong, I'm right." That kinda made Me wonder about the subs who would follow that. But then again, I don't know that particular lifestyle, maybe that dominant is the type to point out the mistakes...Let's hope so,lol. But I agree with you, if I were a sub and following someone, I'd want the same thing. That, to Me, would show Me more about that Dom, you know?



jackparrow -> RE: Culture and Attitude? (6/1/2012 4:05:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TNDommeK


quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: jackparrow


Now I value unquestioning obedience as much of the next guy,



Unquestioning obedience means they follow you even when you're wrong, even if they know you're wrong. Personally, I prefer to have a partner that points out pitfalls before I step into them.


That reminds Me of something I read on a profile that said" when I'm right, I'm right. When I'm wrong, I'm right." That kinda made Me wonder about the subs who would follow that. But then again, I don't know that particular lifestyle, maybe that dominant is the type to point out the mistakes...Let's hope so,lol. But I agree with you, if I were a sub and following someone, I'd want the same thing. That, to Me, would show Me more about that Dom, you know?



I think your right it all depends on the dynamic of the relationship.

I am a little overly rational at times, and I think it would show in my expectations, I feel it would show caring, and a desire for a better situation, whatever it may be for both parties, if the submissive/slave questioned things. Now although any dom/me may be very smart or intelligent, the are not all seeing, and all knowing, and in order to make the best decision for both the sub and the dom/me, it is important to have all information possible present.

Now as a man, I will say there are little subtle things, women are better at tuning into, while likewise I am sure there are things men are more attuned to. Similar to a pet dog, it is the submissive member of that relationship, but it still barks its warning in case of danger, sometimes a man outside, sometimes a vacuum cleaner. But the Master evaluates the situation and acts from there.

I guess what I am trying to articulate is, I would prefer to have some alarms, than none. But as with anything, these relationships are completely subjective to the individuals who preform them.

Thank you all for your helpful responses!



ResidentSadist -> RE: Culture and Attitude? (6/1/2012 4:14:09 PM)

. . . “On more than one occassion I have had indivuals beg me to abuse them, or call me sir in their first text.”

Sir is not a title, it is a polite form of address. Even if it was a title or an honorific, should a doctor have to operate on you before you call him “doctor”?

. . . “Now I value unquestioning obedience as much of the next guy, but I also feel to be truly dominant it must be earned.”

See above – like the doctor, do you really feel you have to dominate someone to “earn” your position as a dominant? Submission is not a gift, it is a role. Domination is not earned, it is your role. Like the doctors, you are either good at it or not.

. . . It is my view a truly successful dom would be able to assert dominance not with the end of a paddle but with a word, presence, an aurora, where the submissive agrees out of respect and fear of disappointment.

Yup.

. . . “A relationship and understanding like this would take time would it not?”

Nope, doesn’t take more time than getting to know someone in any other style relationship. Like hiring an employee, when both the subordinate and management are well trained and experienced, their roles can fit together rather quickly.

. . . “and to have a "slave" or "sub" who would submit to anyone would make them the "dom" because they can choose when to stop listening.”

I do not have a clue about what you are trying to say here.

. . . “The end question is, is the chest thumping, stick beating, and the ass kissing, lip service, a central etiquette in the beginning of a bdsm relation and part of bdsm culture, or is it just an attitude portrayed by some outsiders?”

The chest thumping, stick beating, and the ass kissing, lip service is common in vanilla, swingers, kink etc. To me, seems about the same ratios in BDSM as found elsewhere.




DesFIP -> RE: Culture and Attitude? (6/1/2012 5:56:00 PM)

Okay, as you read more you will discover that although many subs prefer someone who is polite and does not presume submission until it is given, there will be a lot of subs who feel that anyone who doesn't come off aggressive doesn't appear dominant.

Damned if you do and damned if you don't. In addition, guys without any experience often take what they see in porn as real. And in porn the doms don't say please and thank you.

I'm not going to say they're wrong per se. They are wrong for me and for most subs. But they are right for a sub who needs that to feel someone is dominant to them.



Duskypearls -> RE: Culture and Attitude? (6/1/2012 6:19:19 PM)

[/quote]

That reminds Me of something I read on a profile that said" when I'm right, I'm right. When I'm wrong, I'm right." That kinda made Me wonder about the subs who would follow that. But then again, I don't know that particular lifestyle, maybe that dominant is the type to point out the mistakes...Let's hope so,lol. But I agree with you, if I were a sub and following someone, I'd want the same thing. That, to Me, would show Me more about that Dom, you know?
[/quote]

Kind of reminds me of an old saying..."I may not always be right, but I'm never wrong." BIG RED FLAG!



ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Culture and Attitude? (6/1/2012 6:40:02 PM)

Oh my Gawd, that so reminded me of my (long dead) father.

He used to say: "There is a right way, a wrong way, and MY way. In this house, we do it MY way."

And he was right, we did do it his way, or else.

That's perfectly fine if you've already bought into that. Not so great in an initial email.




OsideGirl -> RE: Culture and Attitude? (6/1/2012 7:30:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TNDommeK


quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: jackparrow


Now I value unquestioning obedience as much of the next guy,



Unquestioning obedience means they follow you even when you're wrong, even if they know you're wrong. Personally, I prefer to have a partner that points out pitfalls before I step into them.


That reminds Me of something I read on a profile that said" when I'm right, I'm right. When I'm wrong, I'm right." That kinda made Me wonder about the subs who would follow that. But then again, I don't know that particular lifestyle, maybe that dominant is the type to point out the mistakes...Let's hope so,lol. But I agree with you, if I were a sub and following someone, I'd want the same thing. That, to Me, would show Me more about that Dom, you know?

I can honestly tell you that if Himself made a decision, I knew it would turn out badly and I didn't say anything, it would be one of the sorriest days of my life.



areallivehuman -> RE: Culture and Attitude? (6/2/2012 6:02:02 AM)

Well I ain't often right but I've never been wrong
It seldom turns out the way it does in the song
Once in a while you get shown the light
In the strangest of places if you look at it right



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