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RE: Is the Jobs Report "game over" for a seco... - 6/4/2012 6:18:15 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

I do not really buy Krugman et al. idea of massive stimulus the authors seem to admire. After all, the stimulus that has been directly and covertly used already is actually more than 1.8 trillion. So, there is a proof it does not work.


You are inept when it comes to economic reasoning.

1)Slow growth after the types of reckless economics and the current atmosphere of withholding spending in order to influence the outcome of an election proves nothing of the kind. What it proves is that shitheads intent on a logjam can't completely thwart stimulus.


2) That it's easy for a non-stakeholder like yourself to postulate about an economy/country in you aren't even registered to vote in.

3)We'd all love to hear where you think Maple Syrup, Salmon, and The Environmental Rape of the Canadian Wilderness is headed this year.
I mean insomuch as THOSE are the things MAY be knowledgeable enough to theorize on.


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RE: Is the Jobs Report "game over" for a seco... - 6/4/2012 7:39:24 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:


I expect unemployment to dip under 8% by October, or as the "October Surprise" as an attempt to bolster the President's chances.


Yeah well, if this month is a typical May where hiring is weird anyway and it continues in coming months to progress downward and at that point you start using language like "october surprise" you'll be engaging in a a term I like to call "loose with the truth".

It's been my recollection that May hasn't been the hellfire month for hiring of course the data is typically gathered before the summer jobs kick in and college students step out of the school year.
Of course you didn't GO out on the limb and infer trending ... you have that out.


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RE: Is the Jobs Report "game over" for a seco... - 6/4/2012 8:03:10 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		You know, Sternskipper, there is nothing inherently wrong with the government spending money, even large, borrowed, amounts of money, in an effort to get a sick economy kickstarted. The question I ask is, what are we getting for money?" 10 years later, when we are theoretically working on getting that paid off, what do we have to show for it? What new and exciting industry is thriving, paying taxes, and employing a hell of a lot of people who also pay in the taxes we are going to need to pay off the debt?

But we didn't get that this time, did we? Nope. We got Solyndra. We got shovel ready jobs that turned out not to be so shovel ready after all. We pumped up the benefit credits in the poverty maintenance programs. The same money we used to bail out GM could have been used backing loans for companies that wanted to buy up the pieces of the bankruptcy. More disruption in the short term, yes, but more opportunity for growth and development, as well.

High speed rail is one of those ideas many liberals love, and I find it pretty cool, myself. Where were the orders for pre-fab viaduct sections? Were the tire recycling plants getting orders for millions of shock insulation inserts? Did Congress pass a law, clearing the construction process through the decades of legal hoops and hurdles. Did the President sign an executive order, preventing environmentalist lawsuits from being the death of a thousand cuts?

None of the above, I'm afraid. Instead it was the taxpayer who shall have the death of a thousand bloodsucking special interest and crony, bites.



Now there is an interesting thing here. Sternskipper makes a deal of blocking my posts (which only makes the reply more fun), yet still has a compulsion to respond.

Whatever will he dream up this time?

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Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Is the Jobs Report "game over" for a seco... - 6/4/2012 8:15:16 PM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		You mean, why didn't the President suddenly become a Republican.

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RE: Is the Jobs Report "game over" for a seco... - 6/5/2012 1:29:22 AM   
Arturas


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quote:

You know, Sternskipper, there is nothing inherently wrong with the government spending money, even large, borrowed, amounts of money, in an effort to get a sick economy kickstarted.


When did any government sucessfully spend money to get a sick economy kickstarted?

Besides, the Consitutional role of the U.S. Government is:
1. Defend the shores
2. Establish a system of currency
3. Deliver the mail
4. Protect individual rights


Notice it is not to create jobs or manage the economy. Why? Because the Founders knew goverment politicians and bureaucrats and community organizers cannot manage economies and in the attempt would exceed it's authority and stifle the economy in the attempt. The only way government can influence the economy successfully has been when it reduced the drain on the economy caused by Goverment. I hold up Clinton's balanced budget and surplus treasury as an historically recent example of this. Now, before you bash Bush, remember he had a War budget much like WWII. The difference is how that was handled after the WWII; Reduce spending and raise taxes and not raise taxes and encrease spending. The GOP held tax raises until the other side of the equation was corrected. That will be the plan after November and historically that method will work in reducing the budget, what we owe to China, and these results will encourage business to invest who's investments will then 'kickstart' the economy.

< Message edited by Arturas -- 6/5/2012 1:40:48 AM >

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RE: Is the Jobs Report "game over" for a seco... - 6/5/2012 5:25:05 AM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

You mean, why didn't the President suddenly become a Republican.


Wow... that one must've been a doozey to illicit a response like that.


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RE: Is the Jobs Report "game over" for a seco... - 6/5/2012 4:45:35 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas
quote:

You know, Sternskipper, there is nothing inherently wrong with the government spending money, even large, borrowed, amounts of money, in an effort to get a sick economy kickstarted.

When did any government sucessfully spend money to get a sick economy kickstarted?
Besides, the Consitutional role of the U.S. Government is:
1. Defend the shores
2. Establish a system of currency
3. Deliver the mail
4. Protect individual rights
Notice it is not to create jobs or manage the economy. Why? Because the Founders knew goverment politicians and bureaucrats and community organizers cannot manage economies and in the attempt would exceed it's authority and stifle the economy in the attempt. The only way government can influence the economy successfully has been when it reduced the drain on the economy caused by Goverment. I hold up Clinton's balanced budget and surplus treasury as an historically recent example of this. Now, before you bash Bush, remember he had a War budget much like WWII. The difference is how that was handled after the WWII; Reduce spending and raise taxes and not raise taxes and encrease spending. The GOP held tax raises until the other side of the equation was corrected. That will be the plan after November and historically that method will work in reducing the budget, what we owe to China, and these results will encourage business to invest who's investments will then 'kickstart' the economy.


Good God in Heaven! Where did you get such a silly interpretation of the Constitution? Lemme guess, you read, Jefferson, The Federalist Papers, Madison, etc., right? You've been here long enough to know that citing the Constitution and the limited authorities given therein has nothing to do with any of these discussions.

(Oh, btw, I'm with you 100%. Just gotta keep the sarcasm ready to rock and roll, brother!)

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RE: Is the Jobs Report "game over" for a seco... - 6/5/2012 6:26:17 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

You mean, why didn't the President suddenly become a Republican.



Well, I was just thinking show a little common sense, and be smart with the money, but if those are attributes that only bring Republicans to mind, Muse, so be it.

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RE: Is the Jobs Report "game over" for a seco... - 6/5/2012 6:40:28 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

You mean, why didn't the President suddenly become a Republican.



Well, I was just thinking show a little common sense, and be smart with the money, but if those are attributes that only bring Republicans to mind, Muse, so be it.



Well, I don't really know where any of the posters stand but, Krugman is a putz, he poses some more than valid data, that being....stimulus does have an effect...it just has a decreasing effect as time goes on.

Now the question is, have we reached that point wherein which stimulus carries lesser and lesser weight or....will one more bite at the apple be the turning point wherein which (had we not bitten once too many) all things move forward and....

I think most conservatives favor Romney's approach...."fuck the bastards, let the market decide" and every one of us would like the punch bowl to stay just a bit longer. Of course Obama prefers the "let's just go another 12 - 36 months on this path (spending) and we'll pay off the debt in 12 years". Of course, they never will.

I just wish I knew what was the (ultimate) correct answer.

(I actually do know most everything.....but this one escapes me).

< Message edited by LookieNoNookie -- 6/5/2012 6:43:41 PM >

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RE: Is the Jobs Report "game over" for a seco... - 6/5/2012 6:42:18 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

Krugman is a putz


Why do you say that, Lookie?

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RE: Is the Jobs Report "game over" for a seco... - 6/5/2012 6:43:08 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

Krugman is a putz


Why do you say that, Lookie?


Largely because he polls to the masses.

He's actually brilliant, but he plays to the crowd.

(Just wish I was smart enough to know if he was/is right).

< Message edited by LookieNoNookie -- 6/5/2012 6:46:12 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Is the Jobs Report "game over" for a seco... - 6/5/2012 7:21:01 PM   
Marini


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

That article was a piece of shit; I would have been embarrassed to cite it.

me too!
Why should anyone give a shit what Mike Whitney thinks?

I suppose the real question is whether voters will be swayed by irrational crap.
That is the million dollar question.

Here's my two cents. If BUSH could get reelected in 2004 after botching a major war, anyone can get reelected. The standards are really low and the voters are not well informed.


This statement knocks the ball out of the park.

All the Republicans know how to be is an opposition party. Their policies led to the deficit, endless wars, and banking crisis (poor governance) -- and they have no solutions for entitlements or exploding health care and education costs.

Romney is not a particularly strong Candidate, and the base doesn't like him. Its hard for me to see him ousting an incumbent.

I almost feel embarrassed for the Republicans, they have been fighting to get back into office for almost 4 years, and this is the BEST candidate they can find?


Great post cloudboy, on point.


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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Is the Jobs Report "game over" for a seco... - 6/6/2012 9:32:27 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

quote:

You know, Sternskipper, there is nothing inherently wrong with the government spending money, even large, borrowed, amounts of money, in an effort to get a sick economy kickstarted.


When did any government sucessfully spend money to get a sick economy kickstarted?

Besides, the Consitutional role of the U.S. Government is:
1. Defend the shores
2. Establish a system of currency
3. Deliver the mail
4. Protect individual rights


Notice it is not to create jobs or manage the economy. Why? Because the Founders knew goverment politicians and bureaucrats and community organizers cannot manage economies and in the attempt would exceed it's authority and stifle the economy in the attempt. The only way government can influence the economy successfully has been when it reduced the drain on the economy caused by Goverment. I hold up Clinton's balanced budget and surplus treasury as an historically recent example of this. Now, before you bash Bush, remember he had a War budget much like WWII. The difference is how that was handled after the WWII; Reduce spending and raise taxes and not raise taxes and encrease spending. The GOP held tax raises until the other side of the equation was corrected. That will be the plan after November and historically that method will work in reducing the budget, what we owe to China, and these results will encourage business to invest who's investments will then 'kickstart' the economy.



To your question, Arturas, how about Reagan? Tax cuts, and a military build-up. Yes. Tax cuts count. The B-1 and B-2 put thousands of people to work, right here in my neck of the woods, and those were just a couple of high profile custom projects. There is a fun book, called, Rivethead, by a guy named Ben Hamper, who wrote about what life was like, working on a GM assembly line. It was "Ronnie's death wagons," as he called them, with the extra-thick skid plates, that brought him off unemployment, and back onto the Suburban line, as GM ramped up to meet the orders. Then there were the shipyards. Contracts went out for all sorts of construction. The Pentagon went on a spending spree, for all sorts of things. Were you better off in 1984 (no reference to Orwell), than you were in 1980?

And when the buying spree ended, we had something to show for it.

I'm not a Libertarian, nor a "repeal the New Deal," Tea-type. I like interstate highways, and transcontinental railroads. I like the Louisiana Purchase. I like tamed rivers, and power where there hasn't been power, and good internet connections in poor neighborhoods. Between the general welfare, and being tasked to erect needful buildings, I don't see a problem with government deciding on some hot new infrastructure, right at a time when the citizenry can damn well use some work.

Who the fuck said anything about the government managing the economy?

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RE: Is the Jobs Report "game over" for a seco... - 6/6/2012 10:08:00 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

how about Reagan? Tax cuts, and a military build-up.


Through unfunded spending increases, quadrupling the national debt in just eight years.

He's the start of this madness.

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RE: Is the Jobs Report "game over" for a seco... - 6/6/2012 11:06:07 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		You know, Muse, I've heard a legend that a "2" will start flashing, like a throbbing vein, at the temple of Ron's avatar, if we say, "Reagan," at just the right moment. You bugle quite predictably.

We need to get something for our money. What's hard?

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RE: Is the Jobs Report "game over" for a seco... - 6/7/2012 6:17:14 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
is the jobs report the writing on the wall?

Jmo... I have seen some pro-Obama ads using scare tactics over Romney at Bain & while he was Governor so I dont think job report reality can compare to those ads.. of course other issues, revelations can occur between now and election day..



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"game over" for cons hoping for bad news.... - 6/7/2012 8:27:51 AM   
Owner59


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From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		http://news.yahoo.com/jobless-claims-fall-labor-market-still-mend-123446351--business.html

The number of Americans lining up for new jobless benefits fell last week for the first time since April, a hint that a slowdown in hiring last month may only be temporary.
The data on state unemployment claims, released by the Labor Department on Thursday, takes some of the edge off a report last week that showed a sharp slowdown in job creation in May.
Many economists believe mild weather in the winter led employers to hire more workers at the expense of spring, but that the weather effect should be temporary. Some economists suggested the claims data backed that view.
"(It) gives us more confidence that the trend in payrolls is stronger than the May payroll data implied," UBS said in a note to clients.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 6/7/2012 8:29:01 AM >

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RE: "game over" for cons hoping for bad news.... - 6/7/2012 9:35:30 AM   
subrob1967


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Joined: 9/13/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

http://news.yahoo.com/jobless-claims-fall-labor-market-still-mend-123446351--business.html

The number of Americans lining up for new jobless benefits fell last week for the first time since April, a hint that a slowdown in hiring last month may only be temporary.
The data on state unemployment claims, released by the Labor Department on Thursday, takes some of the edge off a report last week that showed a sharp slowdown in job creation in May.
Many economists believe mild weather in the winter led employers to hire more workers at the expense of spring, but that the weather effect should be temporary. Some economists suggested the claims data backed that view.
"(It) gives us more confidence that the trend in payrolls is stronger than the May payroll data implied," UBS said in a note to clients.


You do realize that claims fall off because people run out of their benefits, and drop off the enrolled unemployment list, dontcha?

But I understand your position, this administration is desperate for something positive, and willing to continue to feed the mushrooms all the shit they can swallow... And the mushrooms are eager to be fed even more shit.
Here ya go owner, this one's for you...

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RE: "game over" for cons hoping for bad news.... - 6/7/2012 9:42:09 AM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		And when the buying spree ended, we had something to show for it.

And what was that?  Other than debt. 

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RE: "game over" for cons hoping for bad news.... - 6/7/2012 11:35:49 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967
You do realize that claims fall off because people run out of their benefits, and drop off the enrolled unemployment list, dontcha?
But I understand your position, this administration is desperate for something positive, and willing to continue to feed the mushrooms all the shit they can swallow... And the mushrooms are eager to be fed even more shit.
Here ya go owner, this one's for you...


Actually, rob, as much as we generally agree on policy and program, the link shown was for "new" jobless claims, not continued claims. This shows how many new claims were filed without counting continued claims. This shows the "new" jobless, but does not show those who left the ranks of the unemployed for jobs.

I don't know how this relates in with employment numbers. That is, if we, say created 150k new jobs, but jobless claims were 400k, does that mean that 550k were newly hired (replacement of the 400k + 150k new jobs)? Granted, that 400k is just turnover, but it's still valid as it still represents a position that was filled and not just left vacant.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
And when the buying spree ended, we had something to show for it.
And what was that? Other than debt.


Damn spree hasn't ended yet! It was merely kicked up a notch. Don't think for a second that some of us (I can only speak for myself, but I know there are others who are not on here that agree with me) aren't pissed at Bush for jacking up the spending.

My overall impression of Bush after 7 years was neutral. I thought he did a good job handling 9/11 and the recession from the dotcom bust. But, I was not happy with how he waged the wars and how he kept spending and spending and spending. By the summer of 2008, my opinion of his Presidency dropped substantially because of the bail outs. I remember the bailouts being talked about and I thought, "no way Bush allows that crap." Next morning I wake up and hear that Bush, indeed, signed the bailouts for Bear Stearns. I was very pissed at that. The financial bailouts - I don't give a fuck what a meltdown would have done and I know I would have lost damn near everything I had - only helped the Big Banks get bigger and strengthen their stranglehold. The Democrats have done nothing to stop this, either.

But, for you to challenge rob over Bush's spending and getting nothing, um, what has Obama bought us with all those dollars he's printed?

Continuation of Federal "stimulus" to the States isn't stimulating, it's merely buying time (or kicking the can down the road). Allowing the States to keep spending and not make changes necessary to be fiscally prudent. What does that get us? Well, as Federal "stimulus" tails off, State budget deficits appear and/or grow. Mitch Daniels has done some damn fine work in Indiana, to the point where their budgets are much stronger now. Same in Wisconsin. Kasich is trying to do the same in Ohio, but Big Labor is strong here. Very strong. Too strong in many opinions.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to subrob1967)
Profile   Post #: 40
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