RE: racism (Full Version)

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LadyConstanze -> RE: racism (6/14/2012 7:04:49 AM)

Have you seen the other side of it? I recently came into contact with this, I went shopping in LA to a place where I go quite often and I had a friend with me, she's an accomplished business person, immaculately dressed all the time but she's black. The same place where I usually strolled around in jeans or shorts and nobody paid any attention to me, all of a sudden we were followed by a shop assistant, it was quite blatant. I wondered a bit, my friend said "It's because I'm black! Happens quite often and it's really frustrating, they act as if I'd steal their merchandise!" It was a bit of a shocker for me, we chatted about it afterwards and she said that's one of the reasons why she usually only goes to places where they know her, because it's something she encounters frequently and she finds it quite hurtful.

Also families have a lot to do with the expectations people have in life and which jobs and education they drift to, it's not just blacks, look at a lot of white groups, the Irish traditionally went into law enforcement, a lot of black families live in circumstances that aren't really great, if the family depends on another income, they might not encourage the kids to go for higher education, hence the grants. As for you just need the right colour or minority to get into a school, not quite that simple.

As for government funded jobs, yes, very much so, most of your lovely border people tend to be minorities and they seem to have a lot of fun picking out people who are not minorities and give them a bit of hassle. You can't imagine how often I was tempted to make the comment that nobody in my family ever owned slaves, that to my knowledge I never treated anybody better or worse on account of their race or skin, so why am I getting harassed and treated like shit when my papers are in order, I'm not smuggling, never smuggled and I'm doing everything by the book... I don't put that down to every black or Hispanic person being a racist, I rather put that down that they pick the biggest idiots for those jobs and small IQs and too much authority is not a good thing...



MariaB -> RE: racism (6/14/2012 9:00:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze


You know, if you got stuff stolen from your backyard (friends keep chickens as pets, they're chicken shed now resembles a security tract because some chavs have fun stealing and killing the animals), if you see said chavs throwing stones at your dogs because they're a "foreign breed" after England lost a football match, if you encounter them drunk and violent on the street or in parks, see the destruction they wrecked because they were drunk and bored, it's not socially accepted snobbery - it's simple FEAR. If I encounter somebody who tells me he's on the dole, at the same time drinking lots of pints of beer in a pub, checking the latest iPhone for messages but complains that his cat is pregnant again and he can't have her done, despite it being substituted for people out of work, but £15 is still too expensive for him (a pint of beer is between £3 and £4) and he gives me his schedule in which pub he goes on which night and that it's not worth working as he would have to get up early and only make a bit more, I can't help but think SCUMBAG, yeah, I'm such a snob....


Of course there is a minority of working class thugs. People who play the benefit system, get pregnant as a career and indulge in criminal activity but they are only a tiny minority.
In England the working classes are often known by middle classes as chavs because they believe that the working classes are uneducated, violent, abusive drinking thugs that only pause long enough to draw benefit to pay for their beer. ‘Chav haters’ tend to be people who were either born middle class or were former working class that escaped because of their own exceptional talent and ability. Chavs, they spit, only have themselves to blame. If I can make it, so can they!!
Chav bashing is very common in the UK and its greatly helped along by the media who are either writing propoganda about the Muslims or demonizing the working classes. Then we have reality tv programs and films like Eden Lake that portray the working classes to be nothing more than criminals and layabouts.
Everyone is expected to achieve to middle class standards. It’s tragic and its absurd that as the poor get poorer, the prejudice against them increases.





PeonForHer -> RE: racism (6/14/2012 9:23:07 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
Of course there is a minority of working class thugs. People who play the benefit system, get pregnant as a career and indulge in criminal activity but they are only a tiny minority.
In England the working classes are often known by middle classes as chavs because they believe that the working classes are uneducated, violent, abusive drinking thugs that only pause long enough to draw benefit to pay for their beer. ‘Chav haters’ tend to be people who were either born middle class or were former working class that escaped because of their own exceptional talent and ability. Chavs, they spit, only have themselves to blame. If I can make it, so can they!!
Chav bashing is very common in the UK and its greatly helped along by the media who are either writing propoganda about the Muslims or demonizing the working classes. Then we have reality tv programs and films like Eden Lake that portray the working classes to be nothing more than criminals and layabouts.
Everyone is expected to achieve to middle class standards. It’s tragic and its absurd that as the poor get poorer, the prejudice against them increases.


I agree with all that but I think I'd fine-tune it, as it were. Those on benefits are increasingly treated like scum by larger numbers of working class people probably not least because the mass media most aimed at working class people has so demonised benefits claimants.



LadyConstanze -> RE: racism (6/14/2012 1:12:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB


Of course there is a minority of working class thugs. People who play the benefit system, get pregnant as a career and indulge in criminal activity but they are only a tiny minority.
In England the working classes are often known by middle classes as chavs because they believe that the working classes are uneducated, violent, abusive drinking thugs that only pause long enough to draw benefit to pay for their beer. ‘Chav haters’ tend to be people who were either born middle class or were former working class that escaped because of their own exceptional talent and ability. Chavs, they spit, only have themselves to blame. If I can make it, so can they!!
Chav bashing is very common in the UK and its greatly helped along by the media who are either writing propoganda about the Muslims or demonizing the working classes. Then we have reality tv programs and films like Eden Lake that portray the working classes to be nothing more than criminals and layabouts.
Everyone is expected to achieve to middle class standards. It’s tragic and its absurd that as the poor get poorer, the prejudice against them increases.



Where is the minority of working class thugs? All I see is a huge number of not working thugs playing the system, the tiny minority you speak of lives in rather large council estates, sorry to disappoint you, not born into middle class and not escaped working class, I have no problem with working class people, salt of the earth, hard working people, a pleasure to be with, usually also speak their mind, they might not have fancy manners but they have manners where it counts, like in helping some old lady to cross the road. Then you have the ever growing population of social scroungers, breeding like rabbits and they will tell you flat out that one baby gets you a council flat, 2 will get you a council house. I really don't have a problem with a single mom getting benefits to bring up her child, do I have a problem with the blinged up, spray tanned tart with the fake nails having lots of different children from different dads, cashing her benefits check in so she can turn an even deeper shade of tangerine and buy a bit more bling or a few more drinks and fags, hanging outside of Witherspoons smoking up a storm, making fun of the idiots who work? You bet I do! You think I have a problem with people thinking it's below them to do manual labour (despite having no education or experience at all) but it's not below them to cash in hand outs aka benefits...

If you want to defend and associate with chavs, you are more than welcome to do it, personally I think that apart from being a freaking eye-sore, they are a waste of valuable breathing space. I don't have kids but I have pets, you know they very well cared for, I'd give up every luxury item if they needed anything and money was tight, you don't really expect me to respect somebody who puts kids into the world to supply her fags and booze?

Stop blaming it on the media, just walk outside of your own charmed environment, you think you are so freaking liberal but I bet you don't have chavs gate crashing, nobody demonizes the working class, it's the not working class that's the problem. And for the record, never seen that Eden whatsitsface program, because I prefer to make up my own mind and not have my opinion delivered to me via the media, worked in the media for long enough. I don't care what somebody's background is, if they make a career out of not working, and society has made it possible for several generations, you know there is a problem with the system and it should be fixed. Again, money to single moms or people in need - all for it, money to people who play the system to avoid working - big fucking problem. I would have no problem giving money to moms who work hard at being mothers, but I have a serious problem seeing the same money squandered on bints trying to get knocked up as soon as the kids reach school age, and especially since that money will hardly ever benefit the children, and the children are growing up with great values - mom is telling them how to beat the system....



FullCircle -> RE: racism (6/14/2012 2:05:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: fetisheden


btw i am on eharmony, so i think i would know the majority of (white)men who email me

not racist at all.just the truth


quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie


quote:

ORIGINAL: fetisheden

there is a whitepeoplemeet.com site, only it is called eharmony(or any other popular dating site)

blackpeoplemeet is not racist.there is also asian only websites & jewish only dating websites.nothing wrong with that.most people only want to date their own race(not me,though),that is their choice & beter for those people to be on that website than complaining on another, dont you think?




Ya know what....that's just fucked up racist shit stated by a black person. (Ergo, it's not racist).

eharmony is a white persons site.....gimme a fucking break.

Gawwwwd I could go on for days but that's just racist fucked up shit.





These two posts are a bit self contradictory unless those white men contacted you because they wanted the time of day or to tell you that you shouldn't be on eHarmony.



LookieNoNookie -> RE: racism (6/14/2012 5:48:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

Have you seen the other side of it? I recently came into contact with this, I went shopping in LA to a place where I go quite often and I had a friend with me, she's an accomplished business person, immaculately dressed all the time but she's black. The same place where I usually strolled around in jeans or shorts and nobody paid any attention to me, all of a sudden we were followed by a shop assistant, it was quite blatant. I wondered a bit, my friend said "It's because I'm black! Happens quite often and it's really frustrating, they act as if I'd steal their merchandise!" It was a bit of a shocker for me, we chatted about it afterwards and she said that's one of the reasons why she usually only goes to places where they know her, because it's something she encounters frequently and she finds it quite hurtful.

Also families have a lot to do with the expectations people have in life and which jobs and education they drift to, it's not just blacks, look at a lot of white groups, the Irish traditionally went into law enforcement, a lot of black families live in circumstances that aren't really great, if the family depends on another income, they might not encourage the kids to go for higher education, hence the grants. As for you just need the right colour or minority to get into a school, not quite that simple.

As for government funded jobs, yes, very much so, most of your lovely border people tend to be minorities and they seem to have a lot of fun picking out people who are not minorities and give them a bit of hassle. You can't imagine how often I was tempted to make the comment that nobody in my family ever owned slaves, that to my knowledge I never treated anybody better or worse on account of their race or skin, so why am I getting harassed and treated like shit when my papers are in order, I'm not smuggling, never smuggled and I'm doing everything by the book... I don't put that down to every black or Hispanic person being a racist, I rather put that down that they pick the biggest idiots for those jobs and small IQs and too much authority is not a good thing...


You know what...you're absolutely right.

I dated a girl in 1999, in Orlando (me being raised in Seattle). She was an attorney....well educated. Her brothers, on the other hand were ALL NASCAR.

We were about to tie the knot, I was there to meet the fam.

In the south, a man meets the fam by meeting the men...the "wimmens" go make something to eat.

(It's not the way we do things in the West).

Anyway....I'm out having beers with "the men" and within minutes (follow me...it's 1999) I'm being told how the (put the appropriate word in) "are taking over our jobs..."

I'm thinking to myself..."this is 1999...this can't actually be what I'm hearing....among (what I presumed were) rational adults".

I get it.

It doesn't change the fact that stupid fucking people don't speak for me.

Nor should they speak for anyone else.



stellauk -> RE: racism (6/15/2012 12:14:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

Where is the minority of working class thugs? All I see is a huge number of not working thugs playing the system



Trust me, the vast majority of 'thugs' in Britain tend to have jobs. Nobody on benefits can afford the price of a ticket to a Premier League soccer match or especially a mid-week Champions League fixture somewhere in Europe orfor that matter to binge drink at the weekends.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

, the tiny minority you speak of lives in rather large council estates, sorry to disappoint you, not born into middle class and not escaped working class, I have no problem with working class people, salt of the earth, hard working people, a pleasure to be with, usually also speak their mind, they might not have fancy manners but they have manners where it counts, like in helping some old lady to cross the road.



You could be describing most people in the UK, irrespective of social class. Doesn't matter whether it's on the North Peckham estate or somewhere posh like West Byfleet people care about their communities and take care of their own.

And yes, this includes the large number of people you see in the suburbs of large cities and London who look as if they've walked off the set of the Jeremy Kyle Show or Jerry Springer. But that's mainly due to fashion.

BTW those people you see on shows like Jeremy Kyle and Jerry Springer are actually professional actors and film extras who respond to casting calls on websites such as StarNow and Talent Circle.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

Then you have the ever growing population of social scroungers, breeding like rabbits and they will tell you flat out that one baby gets you a council flat, 2 will get you a council house. I really don't have a problem with a single mom getting benefits to bring up her child, do I have a problem with the blinged up, spray tanned tart with the fake nails having lots of different children from different dads, cashing her benefits check in so she can turn an even deeper shade of tangerine and buy a bit more bling or a few more drinks and fags, hanging outside of Witherspoons smoking up a storm, making fun of the idiots who work? You bet I do!



How do you know these people are on benefits? Know any of them personally?

Oh and you want to talk about the 'social scroungers' do you? Okay, so what about the vast number of people who are working and in debt and living way beyond their means off some bank or credit card company? The average person in the UK has debts amounting to £65,000. However here you can't say or draw any conclusions.

But you can when it comes to companies like Vodafone and Amazon dot co dot UK (who recently moved to Jersey so they can get out of paying tax) and all the other banks and corporations who do what they can not to pay tax - something which is costing the Government millions of pounds.

Thing is its things like corporate taxes which pay things like state pensions and benefits (yes, it really is people like banks and large corporations and foreign companies who pay for things such as benefits and the NHS and stuff).

But you never mentioned anything about these corporate tax dodgers did you?

You see the other thing about people on benefits is that for every scrounger you have maybe ten people out there doing voluntary work for charities and community organizations, going to college, or or caring for someone. This is not to mention the vast army of artists, musicians and people setting up community and non-profit organizations.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

You think I have a problem with people thinking it's below them to do manual labour (despite having no education or experience at all) but it's not below them to cash in hand outs aka benefits...



Now you're beginning to sound like one of these migrant workers from Eastern Europe. Mowisz po polsku? And if you are actually from Eastern Europe, how did you get your degree? Was it from the state education system by doing the work or was it 'bought' from a private college or university where you went through the motions of being a student but only did a fraction of the coursework say on alternate weekends?

And seriously, how do you expect someone with say a mortgage and family to be able to compete with your average migrant worker from abroad (who lives three to a room, pays rent and maybe a PAYG mobile phone) on the employment market?

And yes I am generalizing here and picking on stereotypes, just like you, just to show you how slanted your argument really is. I actually believe that most migrant workers do an admirable job of fitting into our society and no, not all of them live three to a room. But many do, simply because they aren't paid enough to rent self-contained accommodation especially in London.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

If you want to defend and associate with chavs, you are more than welcome to do it, personally I think that apart from being a freaking eye-sore, they are a waste of valuable breathing space.



Hitler and Himmler said something similar about the Jews. You are aware of that, aren't you?

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

I don't have kids but I have pets, you know they very well cared for, I'd give up every luxury item if they needed anything and money was tight, you don't really expect me to respect somebody who puts kids into the world to supply her fags and booze?



Hmmm.. okay. Not sure what you're trying to say here. Cigarettes and 'booze' are sold to people over the age of 18. Not sure where you figure kids come into this. Or are you trying to suggest perhaps the mothers send the kids out to steal the fags and booze? Is that what you are trying to say?

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

Stop blaming it on the media, just walk outside of your own charmed environment, you think you are so freaking liberal but I bet you don't have chavs gate crashing, nobody demonizes the working class, it's the not working class that's the problem.



So tell me, where do you actually see all these things you describe?

I live on a council estate here in South London. I don't see that much of what you describe.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

And for the record, never seen that Eden whatsitsface program, because I prefer to make up my own mind and not have my opinion delivered to me via the media, worked in the media for long enough.



Ah, gotcha. And there's me thinking you lived in this terrible neighbourhood somewhere.

So you 'prefer to make up your own mind' and rather than actually seeing what is going on there out in society you concoct some argument out of your assumptions and prejudices, which is somewhat similar to that of the right wing media.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

I don't care what somebody's background is, if they make a career out of not working, and society has made it possible for several generations, you know there is a problem with the system and it should be fixed. Again, money to single moms or people in need - all for it, money to people who play the system to avoid working - big fucking problem. I would have no problem giving money to moms who work hard at being mothers, but I have a serious problem seeing the same money squandered on bints trying to get knocked up as soon as the kids reach school age, and especially since that money will hardly ever benefit the children, and the children are growing up with great values - mom is telling them how to beat the system....


Okay, so where are all these jobs you seem to believe that people can find? Go on, concrete examples please.

I don't see any problems with the system to be honest. What I see is a society shaped by a trend in the 1980's of companies and coal mines and industries closed down 'because they weren't profitable' (bolded for emphasis) which created the problem of unemployment.

You can't have it both ways, you get to choose between a consumerist society and not enough work for everybody and some people living beyond their means or you get a society based on full employment and paying the full price for the stuff they buy.

Thing is, technology has advanced so much over the past thirty years and transformed the society we live in we are left with a number of social problems including unemployment which are not that easy to solve.

Most people in this country recognize that and understand it, as does almost every politician.

Blaming the victims, i.e, the people on welfare benefits, the people who don't have much opportunity to change their lives let alone the rest of society isn't going to lead to any constructive solution.

And I bet you still don't have any concrete examples of work which is available and vacancies which remain unfilled, do you?

Not much of a grip on reality too it seems from what you post here. Sorry.



MariaB -> RE: racism (6/15/2012 1:29:02 AM)

Stella, I can't really add to that response except to say that sadly we have developed a culture where its acceptable to speak of white working class in a very dehumanized language.
Chavs (slang for gypsy child) are more despised than perhaps any other group of people.



Aim2Plea -> RE: racism (6/15/2012 1:30:59 AM)

Race: Human
Planet of Origin: I don't want to live on this planet anymore.



ClassIsInSession -> RE: racism (6/15/2012 2:00:47 AM)

The earlier posted comment about the woman being followed through the store because she was black....funny, I'm white (or italian actually, some wouldn't consider me truly white) and I've been followed like that in stores before. There is a simple remedy for it, you walk quickly for the door at which point they really start to suspect you, then they go to stop you and you tell them you'd be pleased to stop, but they must call the police and have them present when you are searched. Then you wait for the police to arrive, empty your pockets and purse and when there is nothing stolen, you get an attorney and you sue them for defamation. I agree that sort of thing is ridiculous, however it isn't purely a white/black issue.

The same holds true that if I'm walking down the street with my shaved head and urban look, often people will go out of their way to cross the street or otherwise keep their distance. Is it because I'm some convicted felon likely to assault them? No, in fact I have no criminal history whatsoever, and I'm more likely to rush into the street to save your kid listlessly riding his bike in the street not aware of the oncoming car with the cell phone yakking driver, or your cat....but the fact remains, people perceive me as a "scary man", and frankly I don't entirely discourage it...it keeps unwanted people away.

But I do think by and large, the majority of people are well past the stupidity inherent in this kind of thinking/behavior. It's likely 1 more generation will pass and this sort of thing will be history...I'm optimistic about it anyway.



LadyConstanze -> RE: racism (6/15/2012 4:59:05 AM)

Stella, I have plenty of examples, you know how hard it is to find anybody here who will do a cleaning job? You know how many people here are looking for cleaners? Can't find anybody, yet there is this massive unemployment. Want an even more concrete example? A while ago I was running a little export company, web based, it did well because we had little costs, mainly just a storage room and we did the rest ourselves, with a friend. It did so well that we needed more people, we thought plenty of unemployed moms, they could do a part time job with relatively free time as it didn't matter when they did the packaging as long as it was ready for 7 pm when the mail picked it up, it wasn't super intellectually challenging, basically anybody can grab one of the order forms and go through the old garage we used as storage, check off the things and package and label them and make the copies. Really easy stuff, £12 and hour as a starting wage wasn't great but it was also certainly not an exploitation wage, easy to get to work as we were quite central. Playground and parks nearby, even a free indoor playground. You'd think it would be ideal for single moms, especially if they work out that one afternoon or morning one of them looks after the kids, then another, just take turns.
I was a huge believer in giving them a chance, as there was always the complaint about that it would be more expensive if they need baby sitters, so that is a reason why they can't work. Should have been really easy, they could make their own time and work around the kid's schedule... We tried to offer a percentage of the profits being shared among the people working there, to make them feel they are part of it. We kept a little fridge in a corner, stuff for sandwiches and salads, coffee, tea and water as I really bought into "Got to give them a chance and if you treat them well..."

First of all we had a hell of a time finding anybody being willing to do the job, packaging things was beneath them, then that we weren't willing to pay the money black (so they wouldn't have to mention it), with my friend we got our hands dirty ourselves by doing all the jobs we asked others to do, so we knew how difficult they were, it just made more sense for us to leave the simple stuff to others and concentrate on admin, PR, supply, etc.

I spare you the disasters of people showing up and plainly telling us they aren't interested but they had to show up as the unemployment office sent them, others being a bit more subtle about it and telling us they really tend to get the flu a lot, or some showing up for a day and then just not showing up, or stock disappearing by the box, some of it we found blatantly on eBay...

How much sympathy and understanding do you want me to have? How much would you have if you went through the same experience?

You know we ran it for another 2 years before we sold it, but we didn't run it with single moms or people the unemployment office sent us, we had part time students. Guess what, they showed up and did the jobs.

Spent the last 6 months in the US, now my other half also works, we got 2 Dobies, so I needed a dog walker, the dogs are great and non-aggressive, basically love about anything starting from people to cats, £30 a day for just taking them out twice a day during the week for about an hour seems to be pretty good money... You know how many takers I got? You may have guessed ZERO, the dog park is literally around the corner, 10 minute walk. The calls we got for that were very funny, it wasn't about when the dogs need to go out, it was about when they wanted to do it. Luckily a friend needed a place to stay and he did it in exchange for a spare room, which was just plain luck.

Want more examples? Hair dresser around the corner is desperately looking for somebody to help, willing to train the person but would mainly need somebody to answer the phone and sweep up. Don't know how much they are paying but the same experience I had, people showing up for a day or maybe a week, then they just don't show up anymore, not even a "It's not what I want..." Pretty good joiner nearby, does a lot of specialized work, he's been looking for a trainee for almost a year now, due to the quality of the work they are seriously busy and they'd like to get more people, they just can't find anybody. Now if I was a youngster, getting training by one of the top companies, if not the top company in the area, it would be something I would really think about... In case I couldn't find a job, I'd even retrain. I mentioned it to a couple of guys only yesterday when I walked the dogs in the park and they were hanging out on a park bench, complaining about no work and no money. Minimal interest, being a joiner is not cool, one said he wants to do computer programming, he thinks it would be great as he's playing a lot of games on the XBox, yep, what a brilliant way to get a job...
As for where I live, in Cheshire - you're welcome to call by anytime and we walk past Witherspoons round mid morning, you can gaze at the tangerine girls with the fake nails, sitting next to a pram with a pint and cigarettes outside, occasionally yelling at their children, complaining how little they get, though it always seems to be enough for fake nails, fake tan, cigs and beer... We can even venture out into some of the council estates, where you also see teenagers in bright hues of orange pushing prams. And sorry for being intolerant, if I see pregnant girls smoking and drinking, I just want to slap them.

I know there is a lot of unemployment, but there is also a growing part of the population who makes a career out of getting a cheque from the social and popping out children. I have a lot of respect for people who raise their children, I don't have a lot of respect for people who see them as a way to get better housing and bigger allowances. And the whole "Oh we have to have bleeding heart sympathy for all of them, must not discriminate but understand..." My understanding ends when I see that people who are trying hard are getting the short end of the stick, because the group of scroungers depleted the funds.

I just came back from the town hall, Cafe Nero has a big sign out that they are hiring, Costa too, a few local shops are looking for help, some temp agencies, as I said, it's virtually impossible to find a cleaner here unless you pay under the table, earlier this week we had a leaking pipe - waiting time for the plumber is at least 2 days, are you telling me really that there are no jobs available? I'm perfectly aware that there are not enough jobs for everybody, but if the ones that are available aren't taken, what does that tell you? But then you got the group who blames it on the Polish who come and "take all our jobs" and gives that as an excuse why they haven't ever worked a day in their lives. The jobs available might not be brilliant or dream jobs, but before I would be looking for a hand out from the social, I'd be doing something that's "beneath me", because it wouldn't be as beneath me as living off somebody elses money.

Yes, let's all have tons of sympathy because then we can pat ourselves on the shoulders and pretend we are so good hearted, meanwhile we enable the people and keep them in that loop, because if we pretend that we're sympathetic, we can still look down on them but feel so much better about ourselves. Brilliant solution, going to help so much...



LadyConstanze -> RE: racism (6/15/2012 5:09:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ClassIsInSession

The earlier posted comment about the woman being followed through the store because she was black....funny, I'm white (or italian actually, some wouldn't consider me truly white) and I've been followed like that in stores before. There is a simple remedy for it, you walk quickly for the door at which point they really start to suspect you, then they go to stop you and you tell them you'd be pleased to stop, but they must call the police and have them present when you are searched. Then you wait for the police to arrive, empty your pockets and purse and when there is nothing stolen, you get an attorney and you sue them for defamation. I agree that sort of thing is ridiculous, however it isn't purely a white/black issue.

The same holds true that if I'm walking down the street with my shaved head and urban look, often people will go out of their way to cross the street or otherwise keep their distance. Is it because I'm some convicted felon likely to assault them? No, in fact I have no criminal history whatsoever, and I'm more likely to rush into the street to save your kid listlessly riding his bike in the street not aware of the oncoming car with the cell phone yakking driver, or your cat....but the fact remains, people perceive me as a "scary man", and frankly I don't entirely discourage it...it keeps unwanted people away.

But I do think by and large, the majority of people are well past the stupidity inherent in this kind of thinking/behavior. It's likely 1 more generation will pass and this sort of thing will be history...I'm optimistic about it anyway.


Oh but your hairstyle and how you dress is your choice, she was born with darker skin, that's a massive difference, and sorry, I think she has too much dignity and style to create a scene like that. I was pretty shocked when I encountered that and it's a shop where I won't ever shop again, I'm actually thinking about sending a note to the management and making that clear.

If you want to look like a scary man because it gives you a boost, again, your choice. How we keep our hair and our clothes is a choice, ethnic roots aren't much of a choice, how a person decides he or she wants to present themselves to others says more than the accident of birth that gives you a particular colouring or shape of eyes. So yes, seeing a bunch of guys with cornrows and low slung jeans in a dark street, I would try to avoid them, just as much as I would try to avoid a bunch of guys with shaved heads and Doc Marten boots. If you'd hang out with a bunch of guys dressed in the same way at a mall, I most likely would try to avoid you, simply because I am not looking for trouble. If you'd come up and strike up a conversation with me on your own and not be threatening, not a problem but I wouldn't try to talk to you, and as you said, that's what you want, to keep people away...



stellauk -> RE: racism (6/15/2012 8:06:56 AM)

You know Lady Constanze I would be a bit more sympathetic and understanding..

but..

I've just spent almost six years on welfare benefits here in London. It could have been a lot less, ah but you see, try looking for a job - any job paying National Minimum Wage and above (the sort of work I was looking for) when you're transgendered and have no work and employment history n the country, in your forties.

Not a problem if it's voluntary unpaid work - I have notched up another 3,000 or so hours of such work for various organizations and charities.

But paid work? You know? The work that actually provides you with an income? And it's not like I was uneducated or without experience. Back in Poland I was part of the elite - I've worked with various government departments, and it was me who taught English to the management of the 2002 Polish World Cup Squad in addition to running a theatre and a moderately successful but aborted acting career.

What did I get? I'll tell you what I got, I got excuses, I got ignored, I got hassled, and a fair amount of judgmental crap and verbal abuse. Consistently.

In the end I gave up and decided to take the longer route towards self-employment. Much less hassle.

Thing is these days a desire and a willingness to work isn't enough. You have to have a CV, a CRB check, you also have to look the part, and be prepared to jump through hoops not only to get the work, but keep it too.

But enough about me, let's get back to your examples shall we?

Okay, so you were looking for a cleaner, a dog walker, someone to do packaging.

Then there's the hairdresser round the corner who's willing to train but who needs someone mainly to sweep up and answer the phone..

Please forgive my lack of understanding here, but it's hardly the stuff of blistering career choices is it?

I can compare it with my own experiences here in South London. I'm developing a fringe theatre company and over half the professional actors I work with are on benefits.

Now i don't believe in making promises, stringing people along or bullshitting people and at the auditions I explained that the work I was offering was unpaid unless something changes but if they stick around and give me enough work it could lead to paid work.

This is precisely what the Fringe is - it's a risk. You have to make the effort, and it can work out well for you, or it doesn't.

Guess what? These people turn up on time, they turn up prepared, they work solidly and they make an effort. In fact they go out of their way to do what i ask of them.

But then again i guess the difference is that I'm offering them work (acting) which is meaningful, fulfilling and likely (if they give me enough of it) to take them to where they really want to be in life.

All of them would really love to be like the 'lucky' few who temp or have careers but you see the thing is being actors they have to attend auditions and constantly update their show reel by appearing in student films but nobody is prepared to give them work on those terms.

I have two single mothers, one of whom pays a babysitter to take care of her son so she can come and work unpaid for me and the other does something similar and travels an hour and a half from the fringes of North London even if I just need her for an hour of unpaid work.

I agree with you, there is plenty of work out there. However this doesn't change the fact that there's a real shortage of meaningful, fulfilling work which pays a sustainable income.

And it seems that you either cannot or don't want to understand the difference between menial work and meaningful fulfilling work and the difference it makes to someone's attitude.

This is why students were far more willing to do the menial work than people on benefits. This is basic human nature. People who have a meaningful occupation in life are far more willing to do menial work than people who don't have any sort of meaningful occupation or indeed, no reason to get out of bed in the morning.

You seem to resent the fact that people on welfare benefits have aspirations and ambitions. I don't, because it's precisely those aspirations and ambitions which make them employable in the first place.

But the thing is until everyone has equal opportunity to a meaningful occupation which pays a sustainable income there will always be vacancies for menial work going unfilled.

And furthermore, unless a large part of the population, the media and the politicians grasp that simple fact then our society and our economy is going nowhere fast.

And it is a simple fact, not rocket science. If top companies can invest in their workers and pay attention to their aspirations and ambitions then so too can everybody else.

There's a term for this. It's called the free market. Everyone is entitled to their choices right?

This includes everyone who's on benefits.

You can't have it both ways.

And in a vain attempt to get back to the topic of the thread just because someone is different from you in appearance, lifestyle or behaviour doesn't necessarily make them inferior to you.

It just makes them different, that's all.



RemoteUser -> RE: racism (6/15/2012 8:54:31 AM)

Racism is just an attempt to define others as a group. (That's definition, not justification.) It should go away right around the time we put acceptance before analysis, which will likely be never. (That's realism, not pessimism.)

Some things are best handled through outlook, because perceptions beat reality every time where the individual is concerned.




LadyHibiscus -> RE: racism (6/15/2012 12:03:58 PM)

It's just amazing how similar the outlook toward those on benefits is here and in the UK.

Here in the states, you don't get benefits unless you've got kids, though. Unemployed, and your unemployment has run out (presuming that you have enough credits to qualify) and you are pretty much out of luck. It's even harder if you were a "middle class" type of person who worked in an office and got downsized. The poor of this country have a knowledge of what benefits are available that most people simply DON'T. I have a young cousin who's a foolish bint, to put it mildly, and she is actually managing just fine on benefits and handouts from her dad. MANAGING. Not living glamourously. And it seems that she's okay with that.

Metro Detroit does have that stereotype of the welfare queen driving the Cadillac to pick up her check, and perhaps that was true in the 80's, but you don't see that anymore. What we do see--and this is surface, of course--is people with limited resources and no concept of what to do with their money, stuck in the mire of poverty consciousness. When all you've ever known is the projects, that's what your picture of life is. Add to that the new culture of entitlement AND the 20% unemployment rate of SE Michigan (Flint and Detroit, recently named the two cities in the US with the most violent crime!) and it's not a surprise that there's not much mobility in any direction.

My professional clients that have fallen on hard times will do any damn thing to bring in cash. Work is work. Paper route? Sure. Window cleaning? Okay. Because they worked all their lives? Maybe.




stellauk -> RE: racism (6/15/2012 1:31:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

My professional clients that have fallen on hard times will do any damn thing to bring in cash. Work is work. Paper route? Sure. Window cleaning? Okay. Because they worked all their lives? Maybe.



I agree totally and believe me, I've done my fair share of menial work in the past - leaflet distribution, cleaning, even picking up dog shit from someone's back garden over the course of an afternoon for a tenner.

But the fact remains the same - it's not the person without the work who decides who gets the job but the other person on the other side of the desk.

I live in London. It's supposed to be one of the most cosmopolitan cities in the world.

Thing is, walk down Threadneedle Street in the City of London and you will see predominantly white people in office attire. Head for any sandwich bar in the City come lunchtime and you will find mainly white people standing in line waiting for their lunch.

Cut to say 6pm on London Bridge you will find mainly white people walking over the bridge to the station on the way home from the office.

Head over to Hoxton on the other side of the City to the Job Centre and I will put money on you meeting a Nigerian security guard and a welfare benefits office where the majority of staff are black.

Go across to the University of London and you will find a diverse mix of students black, white, Asian, Chinese, and so on.

As you say LadyHib work is work. It shouldn't matter whether someone is white, black, old, young, thin, fat, gay, transgendered, disabled (and yes, I've yet to come across a City worker in a wheelchair). All that should matter is whether they are employable and whether they can do the work.

Ah but you see it does matter. It really does.

And you can stigmatize the welfare queens and chavs all you like but they don't get a say in who does the hiring, do they?



LadyHibiscus -> RE: racism (6/15/2012 1:43:30 PM)

They really don't, Stella. It's the same all over, colour wise. My area of the country is VERY ethnically diverse, but there's no mixing. Largest arab-speaking population outside the middle east... and arabs hire arabs. Indians hire Indians. Albanians, Romanians, go on down the list. (I lost a job because I was white, once! Felt bad for the guy who legally couldn't just come out and SAY that...)

I was at LGBT art thingy last night, and my friends and I were headshaking over the whole "picking a team" notion as regards gay/straight. We presumably have more in common than we have differences, but there you have it. We cluster in our groups, birds of a feather. Some animals more equal than others?

I hatey hate that word "privilege", but it does come into play here, I think. Supposing I decided to find a jobby job. Pretty, middle aged white lady with perfect manicure and perfect wardrobe, that speaks grammatical English and sits up straight. That's how I was raised, the environment I am used to. No special coaching needed. I've had people apply to me over the years that I would never have meeting the public because they honestly didnt know any better, they WERE dressed with the stuff they had, and spoke the way they did at home.

Bridge that gap! Not fair? Not at all.



FullCircle -> RE: racism (6/15/2012 2:02:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stellauk
I can compare it with my own experiences here in South London. I'm developing a fringe theatre company and over half the professional actors I work with are on benefits.

If they are professionals you should be paying them otherwise they are amateurs by definition i.e. if they can't earn enough by doing it not to have to claim benefits.

What you said is a bit like someone saying they are a professional footballer when in reality they are part of a five a side team.



LadyHibiscus -> RE: racism (6/15/2012 2:03:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

quote:

ORIGINAL: stellauk
I can compare it with my own experiences here in South London. I'm developing a fringe theatre company and over half the professional actors I work with are on benefits.

If they are professionals you should be paying them otherwise they are amateurs by definition.

What you said is a bit like someone saying they are a professional footballer when in reality they are part of a five a side team.


They might not be professional in THAT job, but in others. Hard to find steady work in the arts, but you have to keep that CV going.



FullCircle -> RE: racism (6/15/2012 2:07:44 PM)

She said 'professional actors' not part time actors who are professional electricians. She also said they were claiming benefits which you wouldn't really be doing if you were a professional anything (unless it's incapacity benefit etc.)

If we are lucky we find a job we love if we arn't we find a job just to get paid and use the spare time to find a better job, it's not uncommon for people to hate what they get paid for and to also have part time interests.



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