RE: Actual "Leftist" Positions

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RE: Actual "Leftist" Positions - 6/21/2012 3:26:43 PM

PeonForHer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: YSG
I did this little critique to illustrate the difference between "leftist" (aka neoliberals) and "progressives" (actual liberals).

From a UK position, that's utterly screwy. A 'neoliberal' would be a right winger here. However, most 'neo liberals', whilst believing in the absolute right to freedom to become as rich and as obese as is humanly possible (and the USA leads the world in the latter, of course), also tend to be entirely conservative in the social sphere. So, for instance, being a fat, rich, exploitative cunt who pays his workers next to nothing isn't immoral; being a poor, single mother whose boyfriend has fucked off leaving her in the lurch, is.

You know it makes sense. :-)

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RE: Actual "Leftist" Positions - 6/21/2012 3:33:17 PM

Baroana

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Generalized labels that don't apply to any actual person....what's the fucking point of debating this?

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RE: Actual "Leftist" Positions - 6/21/2012 7:48:04 PM

Musicmystery

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quote:

"leftist" (aka neoliberals)

Not "neoliberals," but "moderates" -- a term rarely heard these days.

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RE: Actual "Leftist" Positions - 6/22/2012 5:15:54 AM

Moonhead

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Of course they're not moderates: all of the moderates are on the right. Everybody knows that...

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RE: Actual "Leftist" Positions - 6/22/2012 5:52:09 AM

YSG

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

"leftist" (aka neoliberals)

Not "neoliberals," but "moderates" -- a term rarely heard these days.

Well, whatever you want to call it, this is an extreme time. A moderate stance on the left is one of the biggest reasons the conservatives have been winning in this country over the last 30 years or so. The average person has no real champion anymore.

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RE: Actual "Leftist" Positions - 6/22/2012 5:54:56 AM

YSG

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: YSG
I did this little critique to illustrate the difference between "leftist" (aka neoliberals) and "progressives" (actual liberals).

From a UK position, that's utterly screwy. A 'neoliberal' would be a right winger here. However, most 'neo liberals', whilst believing in the absolute right to freedom to become as rich and as obese as is humanly possible (and the USA leads the world in the latter, of course), also tend to be entirely conservative in the social sphere. So, for instance, being a fat, rich, exploitative cunt who pays his workers next to nothing isn't immoral; being a poor, single mother whose boyfriend has fucked off leaving her in the lurch, is.

You know it makes sense. :-)

Agreed on all counts there. What I find hilarious is that the right wants to call Obama a "socialist", yet I would say he is closer to Eisenhower economically than any other president in the last 50 years or so. I could go off about how socialism can and does actually help most people, but Ill save that little rant for another time.

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RE: Actual "Leftist" Positions - 6/22/2012 6:06:34 AM

Musicmystery

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quote:

Well, whatever you want to call it, this is an extreme time. A moderate stance on the left is one of the biggest reasons the conservatives have been winning in this country over the last 30 years or so. The average person has no real champion anymore.

This is inherently contradictory. You'd think all those moderates would vote for moderates.

This is an extremely VOCAL time. Don't confuse noise with partisan loyalty--as Republicans were told in 2006, though they haven't learned from the lesson yet.

I left alone the positions you challenged in red last page because your stated intention was to contrast with a "Progressive" view. But half of those are answered in the points you challenged, ignoring the argument for them.

We don't need more extremists. That doesn't even things out--or we'd have excellent new coverage! Putting one hand in boiling water and the other hand in dry ice doesn't make you feel luke-warm overall.

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RE: Actual "Leftist" Positions - 6/22/2012 7:14:43 AM

YSG

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There is one thing I agree with Rush Limbaugh about: It is the extreme ends of any movement that move any cause forward. Consider, for example, the current birth control debate. Are we really sitting here, in 2012, almost 40 years after Roe v Wade, debating on weather women should or should not have easy acess to birth control? Are we really sitting here, close to 80 years after the passage of the Wagner Act, debating if workers should have the right to organize and collectively bargain? With almost 1/2 of Americans living below the poverty line, the right still beleives that trickle down economics is a sustainable and sensible plan.

The fact is, the progressive movement has lost ground because everyone on the left is trying to be moderate, while the right has become more and more extreme. I find moderation to be the key to extreme apathy, that it doesnt matter as long as you yourself are not harmed. THAT is why we are in the mess we are today.

ETA: You mistake my definition of "average person". Im talking the poor bastard that either has to work 2-3 crappy jobs, or work 50+ hours a week at one job just to get by. Why is this anywhere near acceptable?

< Message edited by YSG -- 6/22/2012 7:16:31 AM >

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RE: Actual "Leftist" Positions - 6/22/2012 7:27:45 AM

Musicmystery

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quote:

There is one thing I agree with Rush Limbaugh about: It is the extreme ends of any movement that move any cause forward. Consider, for example, the current birth control debate. Are we really sitting here, in 2012, almost 40 years after Roe v Wade, debating on weather women should or should not have easy acess to birth control? Are we really sitting here, close to 80 years after the passage of the Wagner Act, debating if workers should have the right to organize and collectively bargain? With almost 1/2 of Americans living below the poverty line, the right still beleives that trickle down economics is a sustainable and sensible plan.

No...extremism generates chatter. 40 years later, nothing has changed. 80 years later, we know workers have the right--that's what puts unions on the table. And half of Americans do not live below the poverty line. 15% do.

The old "moderate is apathy" is bullshit. Only extreme positions are viable? Nonsense. There's nothing wrong with avidly advocating a moderate position, and not as a compromise, but as the most sensible solution.

Extremists are the problem--to the point of refusing to negotiate, merely blocking each other's work blindly. That's not progress, and it isn't going to get us anywhere--it's how we got into this hole we're digging.

Stop digging. That's progress right there.

I've no idea what you're talking about with "the average person," or what you think you're refuting, or what the hell you're talking about with the "why is this acceptable" as if I think it is.

There's enough crap on this board from the cons. If you want to have a discussion with me, have a honest one, not an invented one. There's no point in me participating in the latter, as you're writing both parts.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 6/22/2012 7:30:04 AM >

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