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RE: The Wild west in Missouri - 6/12/2012 4:16:28 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
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quote:

When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns.


Oh look. Another P & R sock puppet.

It's not an either/or proposition, Skippy. No one's proposing outlawing guns.

(in reply to deadonimpact)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: The Wild west in Missouri - 6/12/2012 4:20:11 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Florida was more violent than the nation before CCW and remained so afterwards. rates of decline in violent crimes are comparable and can be attributed to other factors since CCP is not national. Concealed carry is not a significant deterrent.

BTW freeper link? you didn't mean for that to be taken seriously right?

Thank you for demonstrating tha concealed carry does no harm.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: The Wild west in Missouri - 6/12/2012 4:20:12 PM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

BTW freeper link? you didn't mean for that to be taken seriously right?



It's just another opinion, and fairly well sourced exhibiting deference to both sides . But since you bring up being taken seriously, why should your opinion (or use of data) be taken more so than that one?

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“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: The Wild west in Missouri - 6/12/2012 5:01:54 PM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline 		There's one man won't pick on old people anymore.
Good law.

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: The Wild west in Missouri - 6/12/2012 5:11:19 PM   
subrob1967


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
Try to stay in the convo, right to bear arms, decreasing crime.



You brought up St Wrinklemeat, not me... Who exactly went off topic here?

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Profile   Post #: 45
RE: The Wild west in Missouri - 6/12/2012 5:37:25 PM   
subrob1967


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

These are the simple facts for the too slow:

Men commit the overwhelming majority of crimes
People age 15 to 25 commit the overwhelming majority of crimes

therefore the size of the cohort of men ages 15 to 25 is the single best predictor of crime rates.

Any time the crime rate is going up, don't forget to adjust raw numbers for change in the size of the population, the size of the cohort is increasing and any time the crime rate is going down the cohort is decreasing.

As to concealed carry laws affecting crime rates, I'll simply point out that states with very broad CCP laws, Texas and Florida, are amongst the most violent in the nation. One thing I've learned from decades of keeping an eye on studies on crime and punishment is that criminals are not deterred by things like capital punishment or conceled carry.


How many of your majority of crimes are non violent involving drugs? Your stats don't mean a fucking thing Ken, especially since you haven't actually posted any links to prove a damn thing... But I'd have to guess you know your stats are garbage, and the majority of the 15-25 stat you're using are of the non violent, drug type of crime...

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

But since you apparently cannot:
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/1147518?uid=3739832&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=56254521773
http://www.springerlink.com/content/k1v20hw324631270/
http://aspe.hhs.gov/hsp/09/vulnerableyouth/6/index.pdf
http://bjc.oxfordjournals.org/content/44/3/401.abstract
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.1086/210136?uid=3739832&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=56254521773


Let's see... First link, no numbers listed, just the opinion of the author... But he does say,
quote:

This has major implications for criminal justice policy since the greatest residual length of criminal careers, and hence the greatest potential incapacitative effect, may be between ages thirty and forty, not at the peak age


Second link... Well, this is a link from STOCKHOLM, which is in Sweden, not the US... Fail

Third link...Talks about risk behaviors, not crimes... Fail

Fourth link... British journal of criminology... Fail

Fifth link...
quote:

The Enduring Effects of Cohort Characteristics on Age‐Specific Homicide Rates, 1960‐1995
Another fail, this study is about 7 years out of date

Cmon Kenny, really? Your Googlefu is weak old man.




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RE: The Wild west in Missouri - 6/12/2012 6:52:48 PM   
Nosathro


Posts: 3319
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Florida was more violent than the nation before CCW and remained so afterwards. rates of decline in violent crimes are comparable and can be attributed to other factors since CCP is not national. Concealed carry is not a significant deterrent.

BTW freeper link? you didn't mean for that to be taken seriously right?

Thank you for demonstrating tha concealed carry does no harm.



I think if the objective is to find ways to reduce crime, as pointed out CCW neither reduced or increased crime, being so, then other factors need to be addressed and find out what works.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: The Wild west in Missouri - 6/12/2012 7:49:47 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

I think if the objective is to find ways to reduce crime, as pointed out CCW neither reduced or increased crime, being so, then other factors need to be addressed and find out what works.


Thank you.

(in reply to Nosathro)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: The Wild west in Missouri - 6/12/2012 8:17:41 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

I think they will reduce crime. The guy that was shot will think twice before he punches another grandpa. No more road rage incidents for him.





Guns in cars and/or concealed?

It goes both ways......

http://www.kimatv.com/news/local/Prosecutors-want-higher-bail-in-shooting-of-kindness-author-158619755.html


"Prosecutors are seeking to increase bail to $100,000 on a man being held in the weekend shooting of a hitchhiker outside of Glasgow.

Lloyd Christopher Danielson III, 52, was due in Valley County Justice Court on Wednesday, on charges of felony assault with a weapon.

The Washington state resident is accused of shooting Ray Dolin, 39, of Julian, W. Va., in the arm as the hitchhiker waited along U.S. Highway 2 on Saturday near Glasgow.

Danielson was initially held on $50,000 bail after his arrest in Roosevelt County. County Attorney Nicholas Murnion said a higher bail is warranted because of the violent nature of the offense and because Danielson is from out of state.

Dolin, a freelance photographer, was hitchhiking through Montana on his way to Washington state. Authorities say he was shot as he approached Danielson's pickup thinking Danielson was going to give him a ride.

Highway 2 is a major route into and out of the booming Bakken oil fields of eastern Montana and western North Dakota. Danielson's brother said he had left Washington state to seek work related to the drilling.

Malta resident Sherry Salveson told The Associated Press that she was driving east on the highway Saturday evening when her 24-year-old daughter spotted Dolin on the side of the road, waving his jacket and trying to get someone to stop.

Salveson said she hesitated at first, then turned around at her daughter's assistance and quickly ascertained that Dolin was in serious trouble. While her daughter called 911, Salveson found a bandage in a small first-aid kit Dolin was carrying and applied pressure to the wound until emergency workers arrived."



The victim and the irony:

Ray Dolin...writing a book named "The Kindness of America."

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/350944/20120611/ray-dolin-shot-kindness-america-montana-charles.htm








< Message edited by Owner59 -- 6/12/2012 8:18:57 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: The Wild west in Missouri - 6/12/2012 8:41:59 PM   
Kirata


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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Fewer men between 15 and 25 = fewer crimes period.

Bullshit.

The fact of the matter is that while crime has been going down the number of males in that age range has been going up.

http://www.census.gov/prod/cen2010/briefs/c2010br-03.pdf

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 6/12/2012 8:56:12 PM >

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: The Wild west in Missouri - 6/12/2012 9:08:56 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		Since ccw clearly does no harm and may help there is no reason to oppose it.

(in reply to Nosathro)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: The Wild west in Missouri - 6/12/2012 9:22:22 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Or support it.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: The Wild west in Missouri - 6/12/2012 9:39:23 PM   
Moonlightmaddnes


Posts: 958
Joined: 6/4/2012
Status: offline 		I am in SW Missouri. When our house was broken into the police came and looked at the damage then told us if they come back shoot them. Dont worry if they fall outside the house. Yep wild west alright.

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Profile   Post #: 53
RE: The Wild west in Missouri - 6/12/2012 9:44:22 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonlightmaddnes

I am in SW Missouri. When our house was broken into the police came and looked at the damage then told us if they come back shoot them. Dont worry if they fall outside the house. Yep wild west alright.

When I lived in NE missouri underthe same circumstances the cops told us to be sure and put one hand inside the window before they got there. They seemed to think when you broke into someones elses house you gave up certain rights, like breathing.

(in reply to Moonlightmaddnes)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: The Wild west in Missouri - 6/12/2012 9:52:28 PM   
BamaD


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Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Or support it.

If you lived in my neighborhood you would carry.

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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: The Wild west in Missouri - 6/12/2012 10:50:49 PM   
joether


Posts: 5195
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quote:

ORIGINAL: deadonimpact
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
Missouri is NOT a 'Stand Your Ground' state, but a 'Castle Doctorine' state. Stop arguing on something that doesnt even apply to the issue of the thread!

Likewise, 'kid' as you call him, is a 49 year old man. The 'grandfather' is 65 years old. Both individuals had opportunity to do bodily harm to the other at any time.

Also, we are not talking how 'things are done in the military'. If you actually READ the story, its a pair of CIVILIANS dealing with an issue.

If you would actually READ my post, I made a point to say that it would not be practical for civilians, but I was a good model to develop off of to shape the stand your ground and castle doctrines alike, as getting rid of them is ludicrous.


Well, "Stand Your Ground" has the obvious flaw that is currently on display in the Zimmerman case. Problem with this law, is it allows folks to 'kill first and ask questions later'; when the reality was, asking the questions would not have required revealing the firearm in the first place. Also, its to easy for someone to murder another and make it look like a 'defensive killing'. It should serve to most people as a lesson that even though whats written on paper may sound good, the execution (pun unintended) is horribly flawed. The Castle Doctorine at least establishs a reasonable limit on circumstances. The "Stand Your Ground" however sets up to many variables that could place the law abiding citizens in legal jeapordy due to circumstances. Its not like people can consult a lawyer or judge when bullets are flying pass their head! The laws in this case, need to be easily understood and without to much grey matter between 'lawful' and 'chaotic'.

quote:

ORIGINAL: deadonimpact
If you are going to bash an idea before you even attempt to understand it, then try to apply the idea you just bashed without knowing what is about, you only looking like a fool. As the defender, its not your responsibility to care about bodily harm. Of course you can, you are the one with the gun. Its about proving the circumstances that justify you drawing it.


The problem with your 'ideas' was that in each case, it was not based on the facts of the case itself. And I listed them in three seperate lines to avoid confusion. Apparently, that was not enough!

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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: The Wild west in Missouri - 6/12/2012 10:53:50 PM   
joether


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
Or support it.

If you lived in my neighborhood you would carry.


If you lived in other parts, you wouldnt.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: The Wild west in Missouri - 6/12/2012 10:57:15 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		Never said you should carry if you live were there is no reason to just that when you live somwhere like I do you should have that right.

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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: The Wild west in Missouri - 6/13/2012 6:36:13 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Good old SW Mo… I love to hike and camp down there.

Twenty ears ago if I had a shotgun or deer rifle in the house…which I did…and if my home was invaded… which it was…I needed no stand your ground law to defend my property and family. Common sense and existing law allowed you this option.

These new laws are not so specific and can be interpreted and abused too easily. Your idea and my idea of when deadly force can be used may be very different.

Butch

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(in reply to Moonlightmaddnes)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: The Wild west in Missouri - 6/13/2012 6:44:03 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Never said you should carry if you live were there is no reason to just that when you live somwhere like I do you should have that right.

Or we should work on making it safer. Clearly carrying isn't doing the job.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 60
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