Let's Discuss Obedience

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ChatteParfaitt -> Let's Discuss Obedience (6/12/2012 2:28:59 PM)
Several recent threads have brought forth this one, b/c it seems many newbies and the just plain clueless (can we call them jpcs?) don't appear to have the necessary discernment to know when to obey, and when not to. Also, I am quite sure the many dynamics represented here have as many different ways of dealing with a disobedient s-type. So first, what is your rule book when it comes to obedience? For me and mine, it's you are supposed to obey, always, even if you don't like it, even if you think I'm wrong (though I DEMAND you give me input if you think I'm fucking up), even if it means a hassle for you, EXCEPT when it doesn't make any sense, a/o has the potential to cause you or our dynamic harm. Me and mine have discussed all this and we rarely have discernment issues. It's obvious, isn't it, that even if you think it doesn't make sense, if we have already discussed how that's the decision, you go with it. BUT, if when push comes to shove the directions don't make sense then YES, you are allowed to use your brain. Not just allowed, expected to. And of course, you don't do things that cause you harm. (Like, no, you don't fuck others at work and jeopardize your job). Now, when I first started out, a dominant told me: Here's a good rule, never command an s-type to do something if you are not SURE they will obey. B/c telling someone to do something, and having them say no, harms the dynamic on both sides. At the time, I thought it was great advice, and for the most part, still do. BUT, there are times when you ask something, and you get a no. It may be a very respectful no, but it's a no for reasons you could not foresee (generally emotional) I have an s-type who has not always obeyed me. Sometimes he has reasons why he has to say no to me. Now, he doesn't want to, he's not being bratty about it, but he is not exactly the world's biggest risk taker. He is very risk adverse when it comes to his rt reputation, for instance, and would never knowingly do anything that would cause him to be outed. So I have asked some things of him that have made him uncomfortable, and he had to say no to me. How do you (or your d-type) handle these kinds of things? Is there punishment involved? What is your big rule book in the sky when it comes to obedience?

IrishMist -> RE: Let's Discuss Obedience (6/12/2012 2:38:16 PM)
I answered this once before in another context. He told me to do something. I had two choices. Do it, or leave. It was not up for discussion. There was no 'but I don't want to' or 'it's too risky' or any of the other excuses that are often thrown around. Of course, lol, we were not a conventional couple. He was violent, I was violent...we were both violent towards each other; me more often than him. One of my biggest kinks was walking that thin line between life and death; hell, it still is. Did he ever put my life on the line? Absolutly. Did I ever put my life on the line by saying or doing something that I knew was going to resort in violence between the two of us? Absolutly. Did any of this ever have anything to do with obedience? No. Obedience was never a question or issue between us. My desire for extremes was.

ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Let's Discuss Obedience (6/12/2012 3:13:38 PM)
Thank you, Irish. I have to say, I am not a big fan of the do it or leave style of relationship management. But obviously it depends on the people involved. I've noticed in observing others that it tends to work better for those s-types who are more maso than sub. I don't know if anyone else has noticed this. Hhm, I'll have to think about that one. Certainly, for me I am expected to obey, and if I wasn't totally bought into that, than himself would not be that interested in continuing a relationship with me. Let's face it, I'm too much of a pain in the ass in other ways. Can I ask you, Irish, would you do something that jeopardized your job? Or something illegal?

DarkSteven -> RE: Let's Discuss Obedience (6/12/2012 3:27:27 PM)
I won't say that my dynamic is "Do it or leave". However, if she doesn't do what I tell her, I need to know why. It could be she didn't hear me. It could be that she had a legit reason for not obeying, which she needs to share with me. I once had a sub who wanted to break up with me and deliberately defied me to make that happen. If she doesn't do it, then the entire relationship is called into question.

TNDommeK -> RE: Let's Discuss Obedience (6/12/2012 3:28:24 PM)
This is a good topic. Here, the girls choose to obey. Of course there are consequences when not obedient. But for the most part, He is their Master, so in essence I would say they can choose to disobey but I have seen that they aren't a fan of what comes next. There is no such thing as "I am saying no because" in this house from a slave. It is simply do it, because you are told to. And of course they must always trust that they would never be asked or told to do anything illegal or harmful. The same would go for Mine. I don't want to say that I am a "My way or the highway" type person, but it is established before a potential sets foot in here that what I say goes, period. With every house, filled with girls/women/whatever word suits you, there are always ripples but those are small problems that are ironed out quick fast, and in a hurry. Hope this answers your question.

BitaTruble -> RE: Let's Discuss Obedience (6/12/2012 3:35:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt Several recent threads have brought forth this one, b/c it seems many newbies and the just plain clueless (can we call them jpcs?) don't appear to have the necessary discernment to know when to obey, and when not to. I have the discernment to know 'who' to obey. Once that was determined, the rest was a piece of cake. Charles Manson, he ain't. We've been together for a very long time and the one thing I grit my teeth about is when he commands me to do something we both know is bad for him. I don't like it.. I do it anyway. The only thing I would say is that if he gives me a directive and he is missing some sort of information which might change or eliminate that directive, I will point it out to him and then will comply with the directive or not as he determines. I'm very, very obedient and I'm mostly 'not dumb' [;)] but he's not perfect nor omniscient and he leads best when he has the scoop on the facts. So, I give him the facts, Ma'am.. just the facts and I would never be punished for providing information.

littlewonder -> RE: Let's Discuss Obedience (6/12/2012 3:36:10 PM)
In this house, it's obey...always...no questions asked, no ifs, ands or buts, no why especially. Just do or walk. Now there have been times Master has required me to do something and when I did it, I apparently did not do it the right way but he says it was his fault for not being more clear with the orders so now he makes sure he's always clear and concise and if it's not done right the first time, then the fault is on him. But a second time doing the same order??? Yeah, better do it correctly or there's hell to pay. lol As for even if he's wrong, yup...still do it. I can request to tell him my views or why I feel it's done incorrectly....most of the time...sometimes he simply doesn't care or want to hear it and so I just do it...but other times he allows me to speak my peace and then he decides on what to do with that information. As for the no thing....I better have a damn good reason for not doing something. I forgot or I don't want to do it are not reasons, they're excuses. But there have been times I didn't do something because other real life stuff made me not able to and those he understands so he'll work around that and find another way or time for me to do it. I like the fact that Master has a strong pull on the leash but yet a little lax from time to time. It keeps me in line, it keeps me from becoming lazy and helps to make me grow as a person and a slave. ETA: Oh, I'm sooo not a maso even though Master is a sadist which is probably another reason I obey because I don't like the consequences.

LadyHibiscus -> RE: Let's Discuss Obedience (6/12/2012 3:42:24 PM)
I really do have a fetish for obedience. It's not that I am interested in someone who will mindlessly repeat my orders, but don't say no to me without a damn good reason.

Moonlightmaddnes -> RE: Let's Discuss Obedience (6/12/2012 3:49:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt Several recent threads have brought forth this one, b/c it seems many newbies and the just plain clueless (can we call them jpcs?) don't appear to have the necessary discernment to know when to obey, and when not to. Also, I am quite sure the many dynamics represented here have as many different ways of dealing with a disobedient s-type. So first, what is your rule book when it comes to obedience? For me and mine, it's you are supposed to obey, always, even if you don't like it, even if you think I'm wrong (though I DEMAND you give me input if you think I'm fucking up), even if it means a hassle for you, EXCEPT when it doesn't make any sense, a/o has the potential to cause you or our dynamic harm. Me and mine have discussed all this and we rarely have discernment issues. It's obvious, isn't it, that even if you think it doesn't make sense, if we have already discussed how that's the decision, you go with it. BUT, if when push comes to shove the directions don't make sense then YES, you are allowed to use your brain. Not just allowed, expected to. And of course, you don't do things that cause you harm. (Like, no, you don't fuck others at work and jeopardize your job). Now, when I first started out, a dominant told me: Here's a good rule, never command an s-type to do something if you are not SURE they will obey. B/c telling someone to do something, and having them say no, harms the dynamic on both sides. At the time, I thought it was great advice, and for the most part, still do. BUT, there are times when you ask something, and you get a no. It may be a very respectful no, but it's a no for reasons you could not foresee (generally emotional) I have an s-type who has not always obeyed me. Sometimes he has reasons why he has to say no to me. Now, he doesn't want to, he's not being bratty about it, but he is not exactly the world's biggest risk taker. He is very risk adverse when it comes to his rt reputation, for instance, and would never knowingly do anything that would cause him to be outed. So I have asked some things of him that have made him uncomfortable, and he had to say no to me. How do you (or your d-type) handle these kinds of things? Is there punishment involved? What is your big rule book in the sky when it comes to obedience? I do not care who someone is or what their role is, you have to have a certain amount of common sense. I have not been here long but I did see the post you are referring to and had to do a face palm and eye roll.

Endivius -> RE: Let's Discuss Obedience (6/12/2012 4:00:56 PM)
I'm pretty straight forward on obedience. I'm not flexible. There is a reason for that and I'll outline it in a bit. Ideally, I believe that it isn't submission that I expect or demand. It is the obedience. Knowing full well a sub may not want or like to do something but does it for ME is a huge turn on. My ego enjoys it. I'm odd in that way. I am also mindfull of the consequences of such tasks, and do my utmost to think of those consequences before giving such a command. I would never want a diabetic or someone with a food allergy to eat something that would harm them. That's irresponsible. On the other hand, I have no problem having them eat something they absolutely can't stand. Watching them suffer and gag through each bite because they want to please me makes me delightfully hard. When it comes to obedience, I have a firm policy of being strict. Primarily, because she needs to know that I'm consistent. That she can't "barter" her way out of it. That she cannot beg or cry enough to make me change my mind. If it were otherwise, she would feel later, that she could use such behaviors to manipulate me. Let's face it, you women do it. You do it all the time. Manipulating situations is like a game for you. You want us to hold firm, but need to run that little "test" every now and then to see what you can get away with. If I'm not consistent then it begins to chip away at the dynamic. The consistency becomes deformed and theres no solid ground to stand on. Constantly wondering if you are doing what is expected or satisfying causes all kinds of doubts and fears and to an extent that bleeds into other avenues of the dynamic poisoning them until everything just unravels. There is a difference between being "bratty" and being down right onery or combative. I don't tolerate onery. You either do, or I'll motivate your ass with something that doesn't make you wet between the legs. She can debate, cry, beg, bitch, throw things, or whatever. As long as she does. Ofcourse most of my bottoms know pretty directly that I do not like to be kept waiting on anything. I have plenty of motivational methods at my disposal to handle that. Patience is sometimes a very handy tool for "bratty" subs. I don't mind bratty subs. Do I want thier input on things? Do I want to hear if there is something I haven't thought of, or an angle I hadn't considered? Ofcourse. I'm not omnipotent. At the same time, just because I want that input, does not mean I'm going to change my mind. I'll throw that into the logic wheel with all other possibilities, and spit out a decision. Once the decision is made, that is it, period. When it comes to hard limits on things, I tend to make every effort to respect those. When comes to things that are "uncomfortable" or difficult I don't really give a damn. She knows upfront exactly how I am gonna be, and there are no illusions, no shock and awe campaign, no sudden suprises in my behavior. She signed up for it, and she has a safeword (wich I respect) and she can leave any time. "You didn't prepare for anal today?! Well, then I guess when I throat fuck you in a few minutes it's gonna suck to be you. Now, go get the louissianne out of the cupboard and a trashbag."

littlewonder -> RE: Let's Discuss Obedience (6/12/2012 4:06:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Endivius Knowing full well a sub may not want or like to do something but does it for ME is a huge turn on. My ego enjoys it. I'm odd in that way. Not odd. Master is the same exact way...wait, maybe you're both just odd. [:D] quote: "You didn't prepare for anal today?! Well, then I guess when I throat fuck you in a few minutes it's gonna suck to be you. Now, go get the louissianne out of the cupboard and a trashbag." Ok, is there some kind of club for sadists on here that I'm not aware of? He says the exact same words to me. lol

LadyHibiscus -> RE: Let's Discuss Obedience (6/12/2012 4:11:55 PM)
I am not interested in making people do things 'just because' outside of a scene. Making people uncomfortable in daily life is not my trip. Just do as I tell you. It's that easy. And it's not like I give a lot of orders, either. The notion of a man that can't say no? The 'yes ma'am' said by the right person? Yep.

Moonlightmaddnes -> RE: Let's Discuss Obedience (6/12/2012 4:15:41 PM)
quote: That she can't "barter" her way out of it. That she cannot beg or cry enough to make me change my mind. If it were otherwise, she would feel later, that she could use such behaviors to manipulate me. Let's face it, you women do it. You do it all the time. Manipulating situations is like a game for you. You want us to hold firm, but need to run that little "test" every now and then to see what you can get away with. If I'm not consistent then it begins to chip away at the dynamic. You know I would love to say oh that is low I would never ever ever do such a thing but in reality I have to say that yes there have been times I knew exactly what cards to play or buttons to push to get what I wanted and it worked[;)]

littlewonder -> RE: Let's Discuss Obedience (6/12/2012 4:22:02 PM)
oohh...I used to try to push his buttons or know how to work him to get what I wanted...unfortunately he's smart enough to know them all. Sigh. He's the first man I've ever been with that I couldn't get away with them. I remember one time he remarked how easy it used to be for me to get what I wanted from men just with a look or a smile and that it was a blow to me to not have that work with him and yup, he was right. I did find it difficult at first. Sometimes I still try though hoping he's gotten amnesia or something. lol

Endivius -> RE: Let's Discuss Obedience (6/12/2012 4:24:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonlightmaddnes You know I would love to say oh that is low I would never ever ever do such a thing but in reality I have to say that yes there have been times I knew exactly what cards to play or buttons to push to get what I wanted and it worked[;)] This is exactly why I don't pander. She needs to know that I have our best interests in mind, no matter what.

Endivius -> RE: Let's Discuss Obedience (6/12/2012 4:26:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: littlewonder Sometimes I still try though hoping he's gotten amnesia or something. lol Harlet. I'm sure it works out SPLENDIDLY when you do this lol.[:D]

Moonlightmaddnes -> RE: Let's Discuss Obedience (6/12/2012 4:30:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Endivius quote: ORIGINAL: Moonlightmaddnes You know I would love to say oh that is low I would never ever ever do such a thing but in reality I have to say that yes there have been times I knew exactly what cards to play or buttons to push to get what I wanted and it worked[;)] This is exactly why I don't pander. She needs to know that I have our best interests in mind, no matter what. Oh I know he has my best interest in mind, at times it is almost a can I stump him game. Although a few times it is a simply I want to do things my way so lets see if he is paying attention. Mind you we have been married a long time and we both know each other very very well. It is never malicious.

littlewonder -> RE: Let's Discuss Obedience (6/12/2012 4:33:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Endivius quote: ORIGINAL: littlewonder Sometimes I still try though hoping he's gotten amnesia or something. lol Harlet. I'm sure it works out SPLENDIDLY when you do this lol.[:D] For him as he maniacally laughs his head off watching me squirm. [:'(]

mummyman321 -> RE: Let's Discuss Obedience (6/12/2012 4:47:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt I have an s-type who has not always obeyed me. Sometimes he has reasons why he has to say no to me. Now, he doesn't want to, he's not being bratty about it, but he is not exactly the world's biggest risk taker. He is very risk adverse when it comes to his rt reputation, for instance, and would never knowingly do anything that would cause him to be outed. So I have asked some things of him that have made him uncomfortable, and he had to say no to me. How do you (or your d-type) handle these kinds of things? Is there punishment involved? What is your big rule book in the sky when it comes to obedience? Chatte, I guess I would want to know a little more about that actual situation in which he said no. I will take the s view on this one because it hits close to home for a situation I had. Work was and is a hard limit for me. An example for me I was told I had to wear the CB3000. The agreement we had is it would be removed for business trips where I had to fly. One time she wanted me to wear it on one of my trips. That really strained the relationship as I felt she was pushing a hard limit we had previously discussed. So if what you are talking about is a work related thing I could understand his push back.

DarkSteven -> RE: Let's Discuss Obedience (6/12/2012 4:55:58 PM)
Chatte, let me qualify what I had written. That only applies to relationships, not someone I know who I am not in a relationship in. Even if I know she is an unowned submissive, I will not direct her. Also... I will not direct her unless there is a reason behind it. It's a two way street - she needs to obey, and I need to ensure that I am worth obeying.

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