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RE: Republican WAR ON JEWS. - 6/17/2012 6:48:07 AM   
farglebargle


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And recasting the discussion about Reproductive Healthcare as one about dietary rules is unwarranted.

I guess there just wasn't a defense for the legislators actions, so the subject gets changed....

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RE: Republican WAR ON JEWS. - 6/17/2012 6:54:27 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

I guess there just wasn't a defense for the legislators actions,

Correct, as it applies to women's health issue and the "v" word


quote:

so the subject gets changed....

...by your own wild surmise in the OP.

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RE: Republican WAR ON JEWS. - 6/17/2012 7:18:20 AM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
As has already been pointed out, stressing the "war on Jews" thing while ignoring the fact that the same restrictions apply to halal slaughtering does seem a bit one sided.

And has already been pointed out too, Halal is often not banned while Kosher is.

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RE: Republican WAR ON JEWS. - 6/17/2012 7:28:11 AM   
Moonhead


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It's banned in those beastly dens of antisemitism Norway and Switzerland, you'll find.

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RE: Republican WAR ON JEWS. - 6/17/2012 7:33:43 AM   
Anaxagoras


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Well Polite, I know you have a myriad of issues with anyone that ever criticises Islam or points out there might be an issue with anti-Semitism today if your prior posts are anything to go by but try to act in a fashion at least fitting to your moniker since none of your name calling was in any way provoked. The point of the second link was already clear: "Kosher food seems a focal point of anti-Semitism". Thus it was to suggest that Kosher food can be a focus of anti-Semitic activity as some commentators have said before.

I never said it was part of a war on Jews either. I suggested that Fargle would have grounds to make that claim if Jewish people were singled out such as in the above. The banning of Kosher food was one of the thungs done in the past for nakedly anti-Semitic motives. One of the first laws instituted by the Third Reich was the banning of kosher. Norway instituted their current ban around the same time in the 1930's. The Jewish societies in these areas are now marginal. Banning kosher meat will likely impact their presence further if not completely end those communities, which would be unfortunate in my view.

Obviously it is with regard to how animals are killed but there are proposals in several states to ban kosher meat outright (including import) so it will in effect prevent its eating too.

< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 6/17/2012 7:50:55 AM >


_____________________________

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RE: Republican WAR ON JEWS. - 6/17/2012 7:35:30 AM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
It's banned in those beastly dens of antisemitism Norway and Switzerland, you'll find.

Sorry I didn't find that at all. Norway was noted for allowing Halal slaughter. Not so sure about Switzerland.

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"That woman, as nature has created her, and man at present is educating her, is man's enemy. She can only be his slave or his despot, but never his companion." (Venus in Furs)

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RE: Republican WAR ON JEWS. - 6/17/2012 7:59:28 AM   
Moonhead


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Switzerland doesn't allow either.
The only reason halal slaughter is allowed in Norway, while kosher is not, is because the Norwegian muslims are willing to compromise and stun the animal first. If the jews were willing to make the same concession, they wouldn't have a problem there in the first place.

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RE: Republican WAR ON JEWS. - 6/17/2012 12:08:26 PM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
Switzerland doesn't allow either.
The only reason halal slaughter is allowed in Norway, while kosher is not, is because the Norwegian muslims are willing to compromise and stun the animal first. If the jews were willing to make the same concession, they wouldn't have a problem there in the first place.

The issue here is whether the banning of Kosher had in part an anti-Semitic motive. There was such a negative intent in the banning of Kosher in Switzerland both in the 1890's and a few years back http://modiya.nyu.edu/handle/1964/489 - note as well that Switzerland also seeks to completely ban importation of kosher meat:

quote:

In Switzerland, a ban on kosher slaughter has been enforced since 1897, when the people supported this measure through a referendum with clear anti-Semitic undertones. At the time, Jews had recently been granted full civil rights and some Swiss citizens feared an invasion of Jewish migrants from Eastern Europe, who they considered to be unassimilable, foreign and unreliable. By banning the performance of a core Jewish ritual, the Swiss people found a disguised way to limit the immigration of Jews into Switzerland. In 2002, when the Swiss government attempted to lift the century-old ban, animal rights activists, extremist political groups (on the left and the right), and unaffiliated citizens expressed violent opposition. They called shechita practice a "barbaric" and "sanguinary," an "archaic tradition from the time of the ghettos," and asked Jews to either become vegetarian or leave the country. Should a proposed ban on the import of kosher meat be accepted by the Swiss people in 2006, it will effectively force Jews who observe kashrut to abstain from the consumption of meat. Muslims will also be affected by this move.


Similarly http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_aspects_of_ritual_slaughter#Norway
quote:

Norway copied the Swiss campaign to ban ritual slaughter. The same arguments were presented as in the Swiss campaign and an appeal was made by the Jewish community to the Norwegian parliament not to introduce the legislation... In the 1890s, protests were raised in the Norwegian press against the practice of shechita. The Jewish community responded to these objections by assuring the public that the method was in fact humane. Efforts to ban shechita put sincere humane society activists in league with antisemitic individuals. In particular, Jonas Søhr used the cause as a means to attack not just the slaughter methods of the small Jewish community in Norway, but also the community itself... Those who opposed a ban spoke of religious tolerance, and also found that schechita was no more inhumane than other slaughter methods. C J Hambro was one of those most appalled by the antisemitic invective, noting that "where animal rights are protected to an exaggerated extent, it usually is done with the help of human sacrifice"[37]


This issue has been around for a long time so it would have been known to legislators in Norway that Jews have slightly stricter dietary laws than Muslims who would have been able to "compromse" as they had done so in the past.

Personally I'm of two-minds about Kosher as I also care about animal welfare so if it does increase suffering then thats an issue but what's clear here is the anti-Semetic invective.

< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 6/17/2012 12:25:02 PM >


_____________________________

"That woman, as nature has created her, and man at present is educating her, is man's enemy. She can only be his slave or his despot, but never his companion." (Venus in Furs)

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RE: Republican WAR ON JEWS. - 6/17/2012 12:25:49 PM   
Moonhead


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You're aware that the tenor of the Swiss government has changed a teensy bit since 1897?

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RE: Republican WAR ON JEWS. - 6/17/2012 12:28:22 PM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
You're aware that the tenor of the Swiss government has changed a teensy bit since 1897?

I suggest you re-read the passage I quoted and perhaps a tad more of the article itself http://modiya.nyu.edu/handle/1964/489 to illustrate the motivations behind the campaigns.

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"That woman, as nature has created her, and man at present is educating her, is man's enemy. She can only be his slave or his despot, but never his companion." (Venus in Furs)

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RE: Republican WAR ON JEWS. - 6/17/2012 12:33:48 PM   
Owner59


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The anti-Semitism charge is bogus.

A charge of anti-Semitism made falsely is almost as disgusting as anti-Semitism itself.

And actually hurts the fight against the real thing.

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RE: Republican WAR ON JEWS. - 6/17/2012 12:36:56 PM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
The anti-Semitism charge is bogus.

A charge of anti-Semitism made falsely is almost as disgusting as anti-Semitism itself.

And actually hurts the fight against the real thing.

So far-left and far-right groups telling the small Jewish communities to leave if they don't like it, and activists persistently comparing animal welfare in relation to the Kosher debate with that of the Holocaust is completely above board? I wonder how far would it have to go before you deem anything "anti-Semitic"?

< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 6/17/2012 12:38:22 PM >


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"That woman, as nature has created her, and man at present is educating her, is man's enemy. She can only be his slave or his despot, but never his companion." (Venus in Furs)

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RE: Republican WAR ON JEWS. - 6/17/2012 12:41:28 PM   
Owner59


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It`s a bit like claiming the new black panther party is driving the narrative in the Martin/Zimmerman case.


Disingenuous at best........a disgusting lie at worst.

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RE: Republican WAR ON JEWS. - 6/17/2012 12:42:59 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
So far-left and far-right groups telling the small Jewish communities to leave if they don't like it...

Which far left and far right groups control the Swiss government, then?

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

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RE: Republican WAR ON JEWS. - 6/17/2012 12:45:33 PM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
It`s a bit like claiming the new black panther party is driving the narrative in the Martin/Zimmerman case.


Disingenuous at best........a disgusting lie at worst.

Not even remotely a parallel. I find the intensity of your language interesting. Answer the question as to how a small (and I mean borderline small) community being told to get out if they don't like something doesn't constitute hatred, or why bringing up the Holocaust in the most lurid fashion over Kosher food isn't objectionable either?

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"That woman, as nature has created her, and man at present is educating her, is man's enemy. She can only be his slave or his despot, but never his companion." (Venus in Furs)

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RE: Republican WAR ON JEWS. - 6/17/2012 12:47:35 PM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
So far-left and far-right groups telling the small Jewish communities to leave if they don't like it...

Which far left and far right groups control the Swiss government, then?

The issue was what drove the banning of Kosher, what was the intent behind it. In Switzerland it was these groups that prevented the old ban being revoked.

_____________________________

"That woman, as nature has created her, and man at present is educating her, is man's enemy. She can only be his slave or his despot, but never his companion." (Venus in Furs)

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RE: Republican WAR ON JEWS. - 6/17/2012 12:49:32 PM   
Owner59


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How about we get back on topic.....

Do Israelis know why American Christian conservative republicans are supporting them?

To help facilitate "god`s plan" to one day destroy all of Israel(not kidding)..........to fulfill their prophecy of Jesus` resurrection and return.

Pretty fuck`n grim.

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

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RE: Republican WAR ON JEWS. - 6/17/2012 12:51:01 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
So far-left and far-right groups telling the small Jewish communities to leave if they don't like it...

Which far left and far right groups control the Swiss government, then?

The issue was what drove the banning of Kosher, what was the intent behind it. In Switzerland it was these groups that prevented the old ban being revoked.

So anybody with an interest in animal rights has a sinister antisemitic agenda, then.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to Anaxagoras)
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RE: Republican WAR ON JEWS. - 6/17/2012 12:52:37 PM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
So far-left and far-right groups telling the small Jewish communities to leave if they don't like it...

Which far left and far right groups control the Swiss government, then?

The issue was what drove the banning of Kosher, what was the intent behind it. In Switzerland it was these groups that prevented the old ban being revoked.

So anybody with an interest in animal rights has a sinister antisemitic agenda, then.

No, perhaps you could point out where you pulled that strawman from. Again I suggest you read the quote I cited.

_____________________________

"That woman, as nature has created her, and man at present is educating her, is man's enemy. She can only be his slave or his despot, but never his companion." (Venus in Furs)

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RE: Republican WAR ON JEWS. - 6/17/2012 12:59:08 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
A charge of anti-Semitism made falsely is almost as disgusting as anti-Semitism itself.

And actually hurts the fight against the real thing.

THIS

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