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RE: Republican WAR ON JEWS. - 6/17/2012 1:00:36 PM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
A charge of anti-Semitism made falsely is almost as disgusting as anti-Semitism itself.

And actually hurts the fight against the real thing.

THIS

Well then maybe you might care to answer the question I put to Owner: "Answer the question as to how a small (and I mean borderline small) community being told to get out if they don't like something doesn't constitute hatred, or why bringing up the Holocaust in the most lurid fashion over Kosher food isn't objectionable either?"


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RE: Republican WAR ON JEWS. - 6/17/2012 1:03:22 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
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From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		Who is telling who to "get out"?



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RE: Republican WAR ON JEWS. - 6/17/2012 1:06:37 PM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
Who is telling who to "get out"?

I suggest you read this the top part of this post http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4146235 and perhaps the associated article http://modiya.nyu.edu/handle/1964/489 if you have the time.

< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 6/17/2012 1:08:04 PM >

_____________________________

"That woman, as nature has created her, and man at present is educating her, is man's enemy. She can only be his slave or his despot, but never his companion." (Venus in Furs)

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RE: Republican WAR ON JEWS. - 6/17/2012 3:30:19 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras

Well Polite, I know you have a myriad of issues with anyone that ever criticises Islam or points out there might be an issue with anti-Semitism today if your prior posts are anything to go by but try to act in a fashion at least fitting to your moniker since none of your name calling was in any way provoked. The point of the second link was already clear: "Kosher food seems a focal point of anti-Semitism". Thus it was to suggest that Kosher food can be a focus of anti-Semitic activity as some commentators have said before.

I never said it was part of a war on Jews either. I suggested that Fargle would have grounds to make that claim if Jewish people were singled out such as in the above. The banning of Kosher food was one of the thungs done in the past for nakedly anti-Semitic motives. One of the first laws instituted by the Third Reich was the banning of kosher. Norway instituted their current ban around the same time in the 1930's. The Jewish societies in these areas are now marginal. Banning kosher meat will likely impact their presence further if not completely end those communities, which would be unfortunate in my view.

Obviously it is with regard to how animals are killed but there are proposals in several states to ban kosher meat outright (including import) so it will in effect prevent its eating too.


I smell bullshit, and lots of it. Your second link was regards North America not Europe, as I stated. You did indeed say it was part of a "War on Jews" by implication if nothing else. You will be hard pressed to find one post of mine backing anti-semitism, but lots about the disgusting treatment of the Palestinians. So to link the EU with the Clan and the Nazis is no more than straw man tactics on your part. I would also like to see details of any European Country that bans the import of Kosher or Halal meat. If you dont like being called names, try and post in an honest fashion.

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RE: Republican WAR ON JEWS. - 6/17/2012 5:05:45 PM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
Well Polite, I know you have a myriad of issues with anyone that ever criticises Islam or points out there might be an issue with anti-Semitism today if your prior posts are anything to go by but try to act in a fashion at least fitting to your moniker since none of your name calling was in any way provoked. The point of the second link was already clear: "Kosher food seems a focal point of anti-Semitism". Thus it was to suggest that Kosher food can be a focus of anti-Semitic activity as some commentators have said before.

I never said it was part of a war on Jews either. I suggested that Fargle would have grounds to make that claim if Jewish people were singled out such as in the above. The banning of Kosher food was one of the thungs done in the past for nakedly anti-Semitic motives. One of the first laws instituted by the Third Reich was the banning of kosher. Norway instituted their current ban around the same time in the 1930's. The Jewish societies in these areas are now marginal. Banning kosher meat will likely impact their presence further if not completely end those communities, which would be unfortunate in my view.

Obviously it is with regard to how animals are killed but there are proposals in several states to ban kosher meat outright (including import) so it will in effect prevent its eating too.

I smell bullshit, and lots of it.

And I get the unfortunate whiff of a troll assailing my nostrils, who is stirring up an argument up over what was merely a passing remark to Fargle.

quote:


Your second link was regards North America not Europe, as I stated.

Yes, and as I explained, it relates to the general issue of the phenomenon. I stated that in the link itself, and I restated it again. Latterly I provided links more pertinent to Europe.

quote:


You did indeed say it was part of a "War on Jews" by implication if nothing else.

That is bullshit so little wonder you smell it. I told Fargle he would have cause to talk about a war on X if Jews were singled out. I was actually disagreeing with his charge of hatred.

quote:


You will be hard pressed to find one post of mine backing anti-semitism, but lots about the disgusting treatment of the Palestinians. So to link the EU with the Clan and the Nazis is no more than straw man tactics on your part. I would also like to see details of any European Country that bans the import of Kosher or Halal meat. If you dont like being called names, try and post in an honest fashion.

Well I think you should grow up and realise you can disagree without being abusive. Its twisted to talk about honesty when you throw out many strawmen. I never said you backed anti-Semitism so quote where its said. The point is that you took issue with the idea of an anti-Semitic element in Europe before but you keep bitching about Islamophobia. Why the double standards: is it a beef over the Pallys? It's another utter strawman to say I linked the EU with the Clan. I never mentioned the EU once. You have major honesty issues.

< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 6/17/2012 5:38:39 PM >

_____________________________

"That woman, as nature has created her, and man at present is educating her, is man's enemy. She can only be his slave or his despot, but never his companion." (Venus in Furs)

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RE: Republican WAR ON JEWS. - 6/18/2012 3:23:10 AM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		Stop whining Anax and admit you got it wrong. The issue of humane killing of livestock has nothing to do with anti semitism. I note you havent pointed out anywhere where the import of halal or kosher meat is actually banned. No double standards here, you posted incorrect info and I pointed it out.

Yes I was wrong, you didnt claim it was the EU, but incorrectly claimed it was European countries when stating the following ( Fargey, you can start moaning about a "war of Jews" when the Repubs do something that specifically targets Jews like banning Kosher food as is the situation in several European countries today )..... Many non Europeans wont get the distinction.

I fart in your general direction.

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RE: Republican WAR ON JEWS. - 6/18/2012 9:03:22 AM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
Stop whining Anax and admit you got it wrong. The issue of humane killing of livestock has nothing to do with anti semitism. I note you havent pointed out anywhere where the import of halal or kosher meat is actually banned. No double standards here, you posted incorrect info and I pointed it out.

The strawmen still abound! I care a lot about treating animals properly and I actually said humane treatment of animals was an issue too with respect to Kosher but that the campaigns against said foodstuff was also in part driven by a dislike of Jewish people. That was the contention, and it distinguished those motivated by genuine reasons.

I said the slaughter of kosher was and is banned. I never said the import of said meat was banned in those countries but there are proposals to do so, as repeatedly stated in the posts. That is effectively a total ban. It applies to Switzerland http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_aspects_of_ritual_slaughter#Proposals_to_extend_ban_to_imports and Holland.

quote:


Yes I was wrong, you didnt claim it was the EU, but incorrectly claimed it was European countries when stating the following ( Fargey, you can start moaning about a "war of Jews" when the Repubs do something that specifically targets Jews like banning Kosher food as is the situation in several European countries today )..... Many non Europeans wont get the distinction.

I fart in your general direction.

If they don't then they should. I would assume most on CM know the EU is known as a selective economic block that excludes countries, especially those in the ex-communist East.

Well if its in the "general direction" at least I expect (and hope) the stink will have dissipated as its crossing the Irish Sea, although I know it won't help the low fish stocks much...

< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 6/18/2012 9:09:38 AM >

_____________________________

"That woman, as nature has created her, and man at present is educating her, is man's enemy. She can only be his slave or his despot, but never his companion." (Venus in Furs)

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RE: Republican WAR ON JEWS. - 6/18/2012 9:17:27 AM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		Check your facts. There is no Swiss ban on importing Halal or Kosher, the ability to do so is enshrined in law. Your wiki link is laughably six years out of date.

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RE: Republican WAR ON JEWS. - 6/18/2012 9:24:06 AM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
Check your facts. There is no Swiss ban on importing Halal or Kosher, the ability to do so is enshrined in law. Your wiki link is laughably six years out of date.

I'm beginning to wonder about your reading skills because I repeatedly said "proposed" (see posts 9, 25, 28), and emphasised it again in the last post. Looking back, my initial post was badly written as it was too vague about what the ban was but again it was just a remark in passing to Farg. It was then clarified when asked about it so there should be no problem with it. Regardless of the age the link (and many wiki sources are somewhat aged anyhow), it still cites several sources that note sentiments over the issue are strong in Switzerland so there would be no reason to think that has in any way changed - it is part and parcel of the overall campaign against Kosher in particular so the point is of relevance.

< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 6/18/2012 9:44:19 AM >

_____________________________

"That woman, as nature has created her, and man at present is educating her, is man's enemy. She can only be his slave or his despot, but never his companion." (Venus in Furs)

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RE: Republican WAR ON JEWS. - 6/18/2012 11:01:25 AM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		If thee evil Mooslim psychopaths are willing to compromise enough to stun their cattle before bleeding them*, is it the Kosher purists or the Swiss who are being more unreasonable over this one? Claiming that having its throat slit without being spiked through the brain first is a super experience for the cow sounds suspiciously like special pleading, after all.

*(No bad thing if you've ever seen a Halal slaughtering where the animal hasn't been stunned first)

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RE: Republican WAR ON JEWS. - 6/18/2012 2:19:05 PM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
If thee evil Mooslim psychopaths are willing to compromise enough to stun their cattle before bleeding them*, is it the Kosher purists or the Swiss who are being more unreasonable over this one? Claiming that having its throat slit without being spiked through the brain first is a super experience for the cow sounds suspiciously like special pleading, after all.

*(No bad thing if you've ever seen a Halal slaughtering where the animal hasn't been stunned first)

I addressed the above ad nauseam but for your benefit lets revisit briefly. It wasn't so much a question of compromise because Islamic dietary law is commonly known to be less strict, and in general terms, Jews demonstrate a good deal of flexibility with regard to Western values so I doubt it was just those stubborn Jews being, well awful and cruel. Secondly, I didn't say there aren't issues over animal welfare, and even expressed concern myself, but pointed out there was at times an anti-Semitic tone to campaigns.

Again you're strawmanning but at this stage I expect little else. I note as well that you seem to be suggesting I'm Islamophobic as I was a bit critical of Islam in the past. Its kinda ironic that those who round on those that dare mention "anti-Semitism" (even your good self to some extent), are the same people who throw out the "Islamophobic" card liberally.

< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 6/18/2012 2:36:16 PM >

_____________________________

"That woman, as nature has created her, and man at present is educating her, is man's enemy. She can only be his slave or his despot, but never his companion." (Venus in Furs)

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RE: Republican WAR ON JEWS. - 6/18/2012 3:18:55 PM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		The jews and the muslims are both semites, sweetie.

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I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

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RE: Republican WAR ON JEWS. - 6/18/2012 3:53:55 PM   
kalikshama


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Status: offline 		It does appear that in Norway anyway, the ban on slaughtering animals that have not been stunned has both anti-semitic and pro-animals origins.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_Norway#Shechita_controversy

Shechita controversy

Prejudice against Jews became a focal point in the controversy about the legality of shechita, the Jewish practice of ritual slaughter. The issue had originally been raised in the 1890s, but a municipal ban on the practice in Oslo brought the matter to national attention.

Efforts to ban shechita put well-intended humane society activists in league with antisemitic individuals. In particular, Jonas Søhr, a senior police official, took a particular interest and eventually rose to the leadership of The Norwegian Federation for Animal Protection. The animal rights cause was used as a means to attack not just the method of slaughter, but also the community itself. Those opposing the ban included Fridtjof Nansen, but the division on the issue crossed party lines in all mainstream parties, except the Agrarian Party (today, the Centre Party), which was principled in its opposition to schechita.[22] Protests were raised in the Norwegian press, during the 1890s, against the practice of shechita, on the grounds that it was cruel to animals. The Jewish community responded to these objections by stating that the method was humane.

A committee commissioned on February 11, 1927 consulted numerous experts and visited a slaughterhouse in Copenhagen. Its majority favored a ban and found support in the Department of Agriculture and the parliamentary agriculture committee. Those who opposed a ban spoke of religious tolerance, and also found that schechita was no more inhumane than other slaughter methods.[23] Ingvar Svanberg writes that many of the arguments against shechita were based "on the distrust of 'foreign' habits" and "often contained anti-Semitic elements".[24] C. J. Hambro was one of those most appalled by the antisemitic invective, noting that "where animal rights are protected to an exaggerated extent, it usually is done with the help of human sacrifice" [23]

The controversy continued until 1929, when the Norwegian parliament banned the practice of slaughtering animals which have not been first stunned or paralyzed. The ban remains in force today.[25]

The former chief rabbi of Norway, Michael Melchior, argued that antisemitism is one motive for the bans: "I won't say this is the only motivation, but it's certainly no coincidence that one of the first things Nazi Germany forbade was kosher slaughter. I also know that during the original debate on this issue in Norway, where shechitah has been banned since 1930, one of the parliamentarians said straight out, 'If they don't like it, let them go live somewhere else.'"[26]

No forms of religious slaughter are named as being banned in the Norwegian legislation.[27] Norwegian law requires that animals be stunned before being slaughtered, without exception for religious practices, which is incompatible with shechita.[28][29][30] (The Norwegian Islamic Council, on the other hand, has found that sedation is compatible with halal rules, provided that the animal's heart is still beating at the time of slaughter.[31]) Representatives of both Muslim and Jewish communities, citing scientific studies, dispute the assertion that traditional halal and kosher slaughtering methods lead to unnecessary animal suffering. Norway's acceptance of hunting, whaling and sealing were also raised as proof of the alleged hypocrisy of the Norwegian position. Minister of Agriculture, Lars Peder Brekk of the Centre Party (which has always rejected shechita, see above), rejected the comparison.[30][32]

Proponents of the continued ban, including officials from the Norwegian Food Safety Authority claimed that animals slaughtered according to shechita were conscious for "several minutes" after they were slaughtered, and writer and farmer Tore Stubberud claimed that animals in Judaism had "no moral status... pure objects for ... archaic, religious needs", and wondered whether the EU, in allowing for such slaughter had become "purely a bank, without values".[33]




< Message edited by kalikshama -- 6/18/2012 3:54:38 PM >

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RE: Republican WAR ON JEWS. - 6/18/2012 4:26:28 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
Check your facts. There is no Swiss ban on importing Halal or Kosher, the ability to do so is enshrined in law. Your wiki link is laughably six years out of date.

I'm beginning to wonder about your reading skills because I repeatedly said "proposed" (see posts 9, 25, 28), and emphasised it again in the last post. Looking back, my initial post was badly written as it was too vague about what the ban was but again it was just a remark in passing to Farg. It was then clarified when asked about it so there should be no problem with it. Regardless of the age the link (and many wiki sources are somewhat aged anyhow), it still cites several sources that note sentiments over the issue are strong in Switzerland so there would be no reason to think that has in any way changed - it is part and parcel of the overall campaign against Kosher in particular so the point is of relevance.


Well my old mate, it isnt proposed. Its over, dealt with and legal to import Kosher and Halal meat into Switzerland, enshrined in law.

Was proposed and is proposed are two different things. You problem is you are tense, past tense to be exact, you need to chill. Your damn right your original post was badly written, since it was full of incorrect facts and assumptions. My reading skills may be poor but they were good enough to spot that.

Kalik, you are right about the origins in some, but not all countries. My point was Anax made the claim of whats going on now. Its not anti-semetic, its to do with animal welfare. Going on his trick of using historical facts for modern day meanings, one could point out Germany introduced a Kosher tax in the 1800s and monies raised were used to benefit Jewish communities.

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RE: Republican WAR ON JEWS. - 6/18/2012 6:10:06 PM   
Anaxagoras


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From: Eire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
The jews and the muslims are both semites, sweetie.

So Muslims are "Semites" too, are they Tootles? care to explain that claim?

_____________________________

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RE: Republican WAR ON JEWS. - 6/18/2012 6:15:46 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline 		FR

Sem·ite noun
\ˈse-ˌmīt, especially British ˈsē-ˌmīt\

Definition of SEMITE

1
a : a member of any of a number of peoples of ancient southwestern Asia including the Akkadians, Phoenicians, Hebrews, and Arabs
b : a descendant of these peoples
2
: a member of a modern people speaking a Semitic language
See Semite defined for English-language learners »
See Semite defined for kids »
Origin of SEMITE

French sémite, from Sem Shem, from Late Latin, from Greek Sēm, from Hebrew Shēm
First Known Use: 1848

Source: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/semite

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RE: Republican WAR ON JEWS. - 6/18/2012 6:27:39 PM   
Anaxagoras


Posts: 3086
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From: Eire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
Check your facts. There is no Swiss ban on importing Halal or Kosher, the ability to do so is enshrined in law. Your wiki link is laughably six years out of date.

I'm beginning to wonder about your reading skills because I repeatedly said "proposed" (see posts 9, 25, 28), and emphasised it again in the last post. Looking back, my initial post was badly written as it was too vague about what the ban was but again it was just a remark in passing to Farg. It was then clarified when asked about it so there should be no problem with it. Regardless of the age the link (and many wiki sources are somewhat aged anyhow), it still cites several sources that note sentiments over the issue are strong in Switzerland so there would be no reason to think that has in any way changed - it is part and parcel of the overall campaign against Kosher in particular so the point is of relevance.

Well my old mate, it isnt proposed. Its over, dealt with and legal to import Kosher and Halal meat into Switzerland, enshrined in law.

Was proposed and is proposed are two different things. You problem is you are tense, past tense to be exact, you need to chill. Your damn right your original post was badly written, since it was full of incorrect facts and assumptions. My reading skills may be poor but they were good enough to spot that.

I suggest you might consider taking your own advice re, the chilling. Name calling words like "prick" aren't conducive to a mellow vibe man!

The source I cited made it clear that there was a strong demand to ban importation too. That was an element of the campaigns in Switzerland, and unless you have evidence to the contrary, there is no reason to think the issue has passed. People have been campaigning about this and related issues for decades. In Holland last year there was a similar expectation that there would be an eventual ban on importation after the bill was passed on banning slaughter.

There were no incorrect assumptions in my original post. I just used the word ban too vaguely but I didn't expect a fusspot like yourself to enter the scene over what was a passing remark. For failing to anticipate the latter, I cannot apologise enough! "Yanno" and "just sayin'" as our American friends would say, this is a forum, it ain't no fucking thesis.

quote:


Kalik, you are right about the origins in some, but not all countries. My point was Anax made the claim of whats going on now. Its not anti-semetic, its to do with animal welfare. Going on his trick of using historical facts for modern day meanings, one could point out Germany introduced a Kosher tax in the 1800s and monies raised were used to benefit Jewish communities.

There was no "trick". I pointed out the origin of these laws (there were few concerns about animal welfare in the late 1800's) but did not make the claim that was inherently connected with today. I cited examples of hatred in more immediate times, and the unnecessary connection of the Holocaust with Kosher food - a pretty abusive thing to do IMHO.

< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 6/18/2012 7:21:08 PM >

_____________________________

"That woman, as nature has created her, and man at present is educating her, is man's enemy. She can only be his slave or his despot, but never his companion." (Venus in Furs)

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RE: Republican WAR ON JEWS. - 6/18/2012 6:34:16 PM   
Anaxagoras


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From: Eire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
FR

Sem·ite noun
\ˈse-ˌmīt, especially British ˈsē-ˌmīt\

Definition of SEMITE...

I think most appreciate that the racial term Semite includes Arabs but the issue was really about anti-Semitism, which is defined as a religious/cultural hatred of Jews rather than of Muslims or Arabs. This phenomenon was merely given a pseudo-scientific terminology in the 19th Century http://www.crethiplethi.com/what-is-anti-semitism/antisemitism/2012/

< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 6/18/2012 7:10:16 PM >

_____________________________

"That woman, as nature has created her, and man at present is educating her, is man's enemy. She can only be his slave or his despot, but never his companion." (Venus in Furs)

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RE: Republican WAR ON JEWS. - 6/19/2012 2:12:31 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Anax.......You still miss the point. No one has banned the import of Halal or Kosher meat. The only issue is humane slaughter, unless you mis current issues with past issues.

Anyhow, you`re  a nice guy so I will accept your apology.

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RE: Republican WAR ON JEWS. - 6/19/2012 2:27:23 AM   
Anaxagoras


Posts: 3086
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From: Eire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
Anax.......You still miss the point. No one has banned the import of Halal or Kosher meat. The only issue is humane slaughter, unless you mis current issues with past issues.

...and I keep saying I never said that, I said that it was "purposed" repeatedly but we'll have to disagree on the rest...

quote:


Anyhow, you`re  a nice guy so I will accept your apology.

I am a nice guy [whew someone's finally noticed], and I'm glad you accept the er... um... "apology"...

< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 6/19/2012 3:05:51 AM >

_____________________________

"That woman, as nature has created her, and man at present is educating her, is man's enemy. She can only be his slave or his despot, but never his companion." (Venus in Furs)

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