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correcting a subs behaviour - 6/17/2012 3:02:48 AM   
kalthus


Posts: 64
Joined: 4/17/2012
Status: offline 		Following on from the other thread, about the 'worst sub ever', I was wondering something -

If you have a sub who behaves in a way you don't like (for instance, refusing to wash, using the sink asa toilet, whatever) can't you just train them out of it? I mean, I would't allow a dog to wander around not housebroken. As a daddy Dom, I wouldn't allow my baby girl to get away with anything less than good behaviour.

Do these crappy subs last only one session? Then if they refuse to accept correction, you throw them out?
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RE: correcting a subs behaviour - 6/17/2012 6:29:30 AM   
SassySarijane


Posts: 1558
Joined: 12/20/2007
From: KC Area Missouri
Status: offline 		One session? If I have a session with someone, I am not submitting to them, I am bottoming. It takes a long time, a relationship developed over that time, love and a lot of trust and respect built before I actually submit to someone. In a first session type thing so early on, if a top/dom tried to punish or discipline or correct me, I would be done and gone because I did not cede that right to him and in punishing or correcting me, he then violated my consent.

I can see if, after seeing such behaviors, you still want to have a relationship with them, sitting down and talking with them about those behaviors that are undesirable and what can be done to correct them if they want to be in a relationship with you and submit to you. Before both agree to being in a dynamic, it doesn't exist and you don't have the right to correct or punish until it does and is agreed on.

< Message edited by SassySarijane -- 6/17/2012 6:30:47 AM >

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RE: correcting a subs behaviour - 6/17/2012 6:43:59 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


Posts: 6562
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From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline 		You are getting so confused. One session with someone you don't know isn't submitting, its' bottoming.

As for bad behaviors in a potential sub for a long term relationship, each person is going to have their deal breakers, and those behaviors they want to change but can work on over a period of time.

Refusing to wash and using the sink as a toilet are both signs to me that we are not in the least compatible. If you don't respect yourself and your immediate environment, how can I expect you to respect me?

For a dom where this behavior was not a deal breaker, I think you'd have to have some understanding that not washing is an anti-social and perhaps deeply ingrained behavior that could take months to modify. For me, that type of thing should be done with love and understanding.

With my own sub, I am trying to get him to be a bit less of a workaholic. He has a very long commute (an hour each way) and is in his early 60s. He plans to retire at 65, so there is no reason for him to work 10 hour days, most especially as it means with his commute we are now talking 12 hour days. I am doing this slowly, patiently, with love and understanding for him. He has medical issues, is going in for a procedure on his heart soon, he doesn't NEED to stress himself out with work, since too much stress may very well mean he won't have a happy healthy retirement (which is why he works so hard).

See what I mean? You explain to the person how you want to help them modify their behavior b/c you love them. Now, that is my take, everyone's mileage is going to vary.



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RE: correcting a subs behaviour - 6/17/2012 7:14:03 AM   
kalthus


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quote:

You are getting so confused. One session with someone you don't know isn't submitting, its' bottoming.


What I meant was, you meet a potential sub, there are areas of their behaviour/manner that you don't like. They refuse to agree to change that behaviour (I don't know why someone would be committed to weeing in the sink or whatever) but thats it. For them, it's something they won't even discuss changing. Do you then refuse to have anything to do with them?

I get the idea that moulding someone is a long term thing - I suppose my initial question was - can you turn a bad sub into a good one? And if not, what is it about them which makes it impossible.

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RE: correcting a subs behaviour - 6/17/2012 7:19:09 AM   
sunshinemiss


Posts: 17673
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Status: offline 		You can't change a person's personality, but you can change behaviors with the right incentive. Perhaps the best thing is to find someone who doesn't really need a whole lot of molding ... or molting...

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RE: correcting a subs behaviour - 6/17/2012 7:26:47 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


Posts: 6562
Joined: 3/22/2011
From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline 		As I said, for everyone, some things are a deal breaker, and it doesn't matter what side of the kneel you are on.

If someone refuses my attempts to modify their behavior, it depends on what that behavior is. I may decide to kick them to the curb, I may not. But you know, I *never* think it is a good idea to get into a relationship thinking you can change someone. Thinking you can make major modifications to someone's personality is always going to be an exercise in futility. Now, you can break a person, and thus modify them most definitely, but you never know if you can put them back together in a way that makes them better than what they were. And to my mind, that kind of thing (breaking and rebuilding) is crossing that fine line between great leadership and abuse. (JMO folks)

Which is why I said not washing is a deal breaker for me. Can I break that person down to the point they will beg me to allow them to wash? Oh certainly. But that I can wield that power over another human doesn't mean I should. In my mind, a non-washer needs therapy, and, good as I am as a dominant, I'm *not* a therapist.



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RE: correcting a subs behaviour - 6/17/2012 9:42:34 AM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		If I was already someone with bad behaviour when he met me and we were still in the dating stage, he would have never ever kept me around. I simply would not have been someone he wanted around. Why should he have to work twice as hard to change someone's behaviour? He wanted someone with as little work as possible to make his life easier, not harder.

Now, as our relationship grew and still does grow, he has found some things in me he does not like so he works with me to change those behaviours and I try to do what I can to obey. However, if I refused to do anything about them and disobeyed, he would have told me it's over and we would break up. He doesn't want someone around who refuses to help themselves and to obey. More work than he wants to bother with.

If someone doesn't have simple habits when you first meet them, why would you want them??? I certainly would not have taken on someone who couldn't even be bothered to take a shower and to comb his hair.

I didn't want a child, I wanted a responsible adult.


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RE: correcting a subs behaviour - 6/17/2012 9:51:16 AM   
SassySarijane


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Joined: 12/20/2007
From: KC Area Missouri
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kalthus



What I meant was, you meet a potential sub, there are areas of their behaviour/manner that you don't like. They refuse to agree to change that behaviour (I don't know why someone would be committed to weeing in the sink or whatever) but thats it. For them, it's something they won't even discuss changing. Do you then refuse to have anything to do with them?

I get the idea that moulding someone is a long term thing - I suppose my initial question was - can you turn a bad sub into a good one? And if not, what is it about them which makes it impossible.



Depends I suppose, but as you are putting it with them refusing to even discuss changing it let alone agreeing to attempt to, why even bother? Better to either continue searching for someone who is much more a match for you, or deciding if the things you do like about them, that do fit you, outweigh those areas that don't enough to give it a try in having a relationship with the understanding that they refuse to change those behaviors period.


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RE: correcting a subs behaviour - 6/17/2012 9:56:08 AM   
Lockit


Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Quote....They refuse to agree to change that behaviour.... End Quote

I am a self respecting person and I don't know why I would disrespect my time, energy and emotional attachment that are available, by taking on someone that fails to see the importance of something for themselves or within a relationship with me. Why would I wish to change them, when they are clearly not the one for me? I've got far better things to do. Even if that means I am sitting in a desert wishing for water while the sun dries me into a prune. (Despite what some might say... I am not a prune yet.)

We are dominants, not gods. We may have our personal power, but we are not all-powerful. I have no misconceptions about myself and know what I can or cannot do... there is no fantasy there. Unless someone is willing, I do not have the power to enforce anything by any standard I keep for myself.

Can I help or direct a change in someone that doesn't include irresponsible adult behavior that amounts to being emotionally unhealthy in a serious manner? Yes... anything more serious than that... why would I want to? What ego trip would I have to be on to think I was all-powerful and could do that? I see no need to go there.

I've helped people modify behavior and learn to be happier or survive some crisis... but they saw a need for it in the first place, just didn't quite know how to get there. I do have some skills. I know what skills I have and know they don't include playing games with the emotionally dysfunctional so that I can have a body in my bed, despite their incompleteness. No thanks...

I've seen many that think they can help a submissive lose weight. Okay... that can be accomplished. However, with someone that is obese, dietary things can be established and weight can be lost, but have they dealt with the root reason someone might have become obese? Unless the dominant can understand how it started, minister to that root reason and actually deal with the root cause... you have someone setting the stage to do more harm than good in most situations and two people and a relationship that most likely won't make it unscratched in a very serious situation.

I see people wanting to take on things that are very serious, as walking egos... based in foolishness.

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RE: correcting a subs behaviour - 6/17/2012 9:58:07 AM   
OsideGirl


Posts: 14441
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kalthus


What I meant was, you meet a potential sub, there are areas of their behaviour/manner that you don't like. They refuse to agree to change that behaviour (I don't know why someone would be committed to weeing in the sink or whatever) but thats it.For them, it's something they won't even discuss changing. Do you then refuse to have anything to do with them?
If it's a potential submissive, then they're not your submissive and you don't have the right to demand changes. You have the right to tell them why you're not accepting them, but that's about it. It's only after they've become your submissive can you start demanding change.

quote:

I get the idea that moulding someone is a long term thing - I suppose my initial question was - can you turn a bad sub into a good one? And if not, what is it about them which makes it impossible.
It's two things: 1) You have to make sure that they have the tools to succeed and your support. 2) They have to want to change.

Bottom line is that if they don't want to change, no amount of punishment or "training" on the subject is going work.


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RE: correcting a subs behaviour - 6/17/2012 10:43:19 AM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline 		My sub just quit smoking. It took a year. She quit once and then backslid with a couple of months. She was going through a lot of stress so I didn't push it. After I thought the time got better (and I got impatient), she quit with my prodding. She is using nicotine gum and patches, and will taper them off.

She knew I didn't like it, and she knew it was burning money that she needed to devote elsewhere, and she knew it was bad for her health. So she intellectually understood the reasons to quit. But she did it mostly because I wanted her to. Had she not wanted to, I wouldn't have been able to make her quit because I would not have been willing to lose the relationship over it.

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RE: correcting a subs behaviour - 6/17/2012 10:55:05 AM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
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From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		Congratulate her from me, Steven! I'm so glad she managed it!

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RE: correcting a subs behaviour - 6/17/2012 11:00:44 AM   
angelikaJ


Posts: 8641
Joined: 6/22/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kalthus

quote:

You are getting so confused. One session with someone you don't know isn't submitting, its' bottoming.


What I meant was, you meet a potential sub, there are areas of their behaviour/manner that you don't like. They refuse to agree to change that behaviour (I don't know why someone would be committed to weeing in the sink or whatever) but thats it. For them, it's something they won't even discuss changing. Do you then refuse to have anything to do with them?

I get the idea that moulding someone is a long term thing - I suppose my initial question was - can you turn a bad sub into a good one? And if not, what is it about them which makes it impossible.



Q: How many psychiatrists does it take to change a light bulb?

A: Only one, but the light bulb has to really want to change.

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RE: correcting a subs behaviour - 6/17/2012 12:05:13 PM   
chatterbox24


Posts: 2182
Joined: 1/22/2012
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quote:

Do these crappy subs last only one session? Then if they refuse to accept correction, you throw them out?



LMAO I still am thinking of a pink comforter with skid marks.

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RE: correcting a subs behaviour - 6/17/2012 12:07:12 PM   
OsideGirl


Posts: 14441
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From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Congratulate her from me, Steven! I'm so glad she managed it!


Yeah, really. I had an ex-drug addict tell me that it had been easier to quit heroin than it was to quit smoking.


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RE: correcting a subs behaviour - 6/17/2012 12:23:11 PM   
chatterbox24


Posts: 2182
Joined: 1/22/2012
Status: offline 		I imagine some of it depends on how well you like the person.
If beyond the stink you find potential.
Just how crappy are they? How much crap you willing to take? Whether you give a shit or not?
Whether they are willing to take your shit too. Lots to consider.


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RE: correcting a subs behaviour - 6/17/2012 12:58:17 PM   
NiceButMeanGirl


Posts: 2756
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From: Bellingham, WA U.S.A.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24

quote:

Do these crappy subs last only one session? Then if they refuse to accept correction, you throw them out?



LMAO I still am thinking of a pink comforter with skid marks.

Oh god, I was SO pissed when that happened!!!! It was the last F'ing straw!!! It's funny now, but I frickin came unglued when it happened!! And I'd talked to him like three times about his hygiene already. That was the living end!

NBMG

< Message edited by NiceButMeanGirl -- 6/17/2012 12:59:40 PM >

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RE: correcting a subs behaviour - 6/17/2012 5:09:51 PM   
TNDommeK


Posts: 7153
Joined: 3/13/2010
Status: offline 		See for Me hygiene is the most important thing. As far as "chance after chance", I did that. I did things like remind her every time she walked out of the bathroom to wash her hands, every time she was about to cook to wash her hands. She just never remembers, or wanted to. So then it lead to discipline. Nothing worked. Finally it was just time for her to go.

I didn't read about the comforter, I don't think I could. I have a weak stomach,lol.

There will always be people who just aren't compatible. This last slave of Mine, said and did all the right things for Me to choose her and agree to let her belong to Me, but as soon as those first two weeks were up, true colors came out. *sighs*

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RE: correcting a subs behaviour - 6/17/2012 5:27:42 PM   
kalikshama


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Joined: 8/8/2010
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quote:

This last slave of Mine, said and did all the right things for Me to choose her and agree to let her belong to Me, but as soon as those first two weeks were up, true colors came out. *sighs*

Yes, people are generally on their best behavior when a relationship is new, so best to pay close attention to warning flags occurring in the honeymoon phase.

quote:

But that I can wield that power over another human doesn't mean I should. In my mind, a non-washer needs therapy, and, good as I am as a dominant, I'm *not* a therapist.

Agrees that non-washing is an issue for a therapist.

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RE: correcting a subs behaviour - 6/17/2012 9:12:50 PM   
Moonlightmaddnes


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Congratulate her from me, Steven! I'm so glad she managed it!


Yeah, really. I had an ex-drug addict tell me that it had been easier to quit heroin than it was to quit smoking.




Yep I have heard the same thing. Only thing different was this person was on crack and meth. Wow Kudos to her and you for supporting her.

< Message edited by Moonlightmaddnes -- 6/17/2012 9:13:42 PM >

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