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Do we expect too much out if BDSM Literature? - 6/24/2012 7:21:26 AM   
MalcolmNathaniel


Posts: 1394
Joined: 9/20/2010
Status: offline 		I am not talking about instructional books, I am talking about the fictional stories.

Take, for instance, the Beauty Trilogy. I hear that one mentioned a lot around here.

Or "50 Shades of Grey." Gor and and "The Story of O" go without mentioning.

Everyone keeps claiming that they are unrealistic. Well of course they bloody well are! They are fantasies!

Hell, Gor and Beauty are explicitly set in fantasy worlds.

None of these are attempting to portray the reality of BDSM. They attempt to draw the reader into a fantasy where such things are possible. John Norman is horribly repetitive because he keeps harping on the absolute slavery present in his books. I read mention today in the 50 shades of Grey thread about how one reader couldn't stand how much A. N. Rouquellure* described asses.

Here's the thing: The reason why those were mentioned so often is that they are what the authors liked; they match their own fantasies and fetishes. Were I to write an erotic novel, like Gor, there wouldn't be a whole heck of a lot of gay male porn: it's not what interests me. No, there would be a metric-crapload** of hot chicks in every chapter. Hell, if I wanted to advance the plot and slaves weren't necessary for the scene there would still be two slave girls dyking it out in the background while awaiting the touch of their masters. Why? Because it's my bleedin' fantasy world! It isn't meant to be realistic. I don't expect Luke Skywalker to have a lightsaber that fits all of the rules of physics; and all of my slave girls are bi-obedient sluts - but only for their masters. Just because.

That's what Anne Rice, John Norman, Pauline Reage and E.L. James*** are going for: fantasy. It's wank material without pictures. Actually, no pictures and an actual plot makes it 'erotica' not 'porn,' so that makes it classy.

These aren't instruction manuals; they are erotica. If "SM101" or "Screw the Roses, Send Me the Thorns" were telling you that this is the correct behavior I would be worried. But that's not the kind of book I am talking about here.

No author's fantasy is going to match yours precisely; we all have slightly different fetishes. Some of them are going to be distasteful for you. Suck it up and deal.


That is my 2 cents (.0159 Euros as of this writing.)

*I'm guessing at the spelling. French spelling is even weirder than English.

**That's an actual engineering measurement. The conversion to SAE is 1 Metric-Crapload = 2.2 Fuck-Tons.

***I haven't actually read the book yet. It's in the queue.
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RE: Do we expect too much out if BDSM Literature? - 6/24/2012 7:54:55 AM   
Missokyst


Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		people take everything too seriously, imo. I think I read O before my teens... where it was hot, 25 where it was poorly written drivel, and 40 where it just pissed me off to think anyone might be such an idiot. I read Beauty when it came out and as masturbation fodder it worked just fine, even though it was the stupidest piece of crap ever.. the hot scenes served their purpose. I have yet to read Shades of gray and I doubt I ever will because I do or have done this stuff, I don't need someones fantasy version of BDSM.

I expect fiction to be fiction, if its not fiction it should be a textbook, an encyclopedia (those make me drool) or a dictionary. It sort of drives me nuts when people latch on to something like it is the next big thing. When I was young and reading James Bond I did not consider that there were spies out there, I thought of how exciting the man was.. and dove into the dictionary to find out what some of those words meant.

I tend to wander my own way not particularly caring about what others think. Most people though, will flock to something that catches their eye and poke at it to see if it has merit. It's the way of the world. I have learned to ignore it because I see things as you do. Fiction is fiction. As long as they spell the words right I am ok with it as is.


_____________________________

pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding ~Gibran, Kahlil

“The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for.”
― Bob Marley


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RE: Do we expect too much out if BDSM Literature? - 6/24/2012 8:04:46 AM   
MalcolmNathaniel


Posts: 1394
Joined: 9/20/2010
Status: offline 		You are turned on by encyclopedias?

As a bibliophile I must say, "THAT'S HOT!"

*Checks profile*

California! Way to far away. Damnitall!

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RE: Do we expect too much out if BDSM Literature? - 6/24/2012 8:14:56 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		It's not so much that I expect too much out of erotica. It's that I expect people to KNOW it's erotica and that means NOT the way power exchange relationships really work. Very much like one of My favorite statements about porn. You do go see the movie and expect the world to look like "Lord of the Rings" when you walk out of the theater.

I kid you not. I have two friends up here who have been attending therapy recently. One of their therapists started reading "50 Shades of Grey" and thinks that is how a power dynamic works. They now have an appointment for the four of them to sit down (My two friends and their respective therapists) to clear the air on the reality of D/s as opposed to fiction.

With things like this, and other things in mind, I guess I do expect too much. A disclaimer, an author's note...... Something.



_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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RE: Do we expect too much out if BDSM Literature? - 6/24/2012 8:24:35 AM   
LanaDeVille


Posts: 209
Status: offline 		Two of my vanilla friends have just picked up 50 Shades of Awful. It's gotten so popular that I really really hope that a bunch of people don't start thinking that this is how D/s is supposed to work. Also, I don't think books should have to have disclaimers, even though one might be helpful. I mean, I knew what was real and what was fake when I was too young to even be reading erotica. I even wrote some. Heck, a lot. And I knew it was a fantasy and that anyone who did the things that I actually wrote about needed to be hauled off in a cop car for being a non-consensual prick. I like to think that the middle-aged women who are buying 50 Shades of Grey and other books like it are capable of understanding fantasy from fiction all by themselves. If they're not then...Jesus.

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RE: Do we expect too much out if BDSM Literature? - 6/24/2012 8:29:39 AM   
janigrey


Posts: 126
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		You should upgrade.
Try The Marketplace series by Laura Antoniou.

Its fiction - but she IS active in real bdsm - so the bdsm - is more real. Does that make any sense?

To answer the OP question - No - I don't think we expect too much - we're just willing to accept
just about anything to get our bdsm jollies off while reading.

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RE: Do we expect too much out if BDSM Literature? - 6/24/2012 10:49:20 AM   
Moonlightmaddnes


Posts: 958
Joined: 6/4/2012
Status: offline 		I do not expect too much out of stories, they are not real. Now I do find myself after reading a very good book wishing things could be that way. LOL.


So now I am curious. Are there any BDSM books out there that are accurate.

I have read ones way over the top and all I can think of is no one can take that kind of beating and survive. There is a couple in jail right now for beating their child to death. They did not break any bones or damage and organs from the beating itself. The bruises caused so much toxin to build up in her system she went in organ failure and died in her sleep.

Then I have read books so tame it was vanilla with a smack or two thrown in.

_____________________________

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RE: Do we expect too much out if BDSM Literature? - 6/24/2012 11:37:53 AM   
Winterapple


Posts: 1343
Joined: 8/19/2011
Status: offline 		Well, except for O I don't any of the books you named approach anything resembling literature.
There's literature, there's well crafted popular
often genre, adequately crafted popular fiction
always genre of some sort and porn.
I ca
I came across this quote from Colette.
"Obscenity is such a narrow domain.
One immediately begins to suffocate
there, to feel bored."
She said that some time ago but change
obscenity to porn or erotica and what
she said holds up.
You shouldn't expect much from something
that is by it's very nature so limited.
Literature and other art forms explore the
themes of sadism, masochism, domination
and submission frequently both in the past
and presently. What keeps it from descending
to porn or even erotica is skill and talent.
Read Balzac's The Girl With the Golden Eyes.
Or Wuthering Heights. Look at paintings of
Saint Sebastian. Listen to a torch song.
As far as people expecting to much or taking
things to seriously. Some people are passionate
about books and reading and enjoy talking
and debating about them.
Books like fantasy or sci fi that are set in other
worlds get their realism or truth from
their characters and themes.
My issues with Gray involve intellectual
copyright, amateur work being released
by a traditional publishing house and it's
a book that profits on something while
it villifies at the same time which is a type
of intellectual dishonesty and creative
assholeness.
Many people object to the way their culture,
their profession, their sex and their sex life
is portrayed in books or movies.
A lot of cops object to depictions of them
being gun happy and killing people all
over the place. An American Indian might
be offended by a writer a bunch of nonsense
about his heritage or culture.
That members of a subculture are annoyed
by a outsider profiting on something she
only knows about through googling isn't
that strange.
And when people feel the depiction is full
of nasty stereotypes(the domme character)
and misrepresentations of power exchange
relationships why shouldn't they bitch
about on one of the fifty thousand threads
on the Internet about the "books".
Of the other works you mentioned.
I think the Beauty books are pretty awful
and I couldn't get through. Anne Rice is
however an actual writer with talent.
I think Louis and Lestat in Interview with the
Vampire are in a sort of D/s relationship.
I haven't read a lot of the Gor books but my
general view of them is they are pulpy sci fi
books with alpha male heroes.
I would classify them as adequately crafted
popular fiction and that's not a bad thing.
O is a little different. I can respect aspects
of O without liking it very much or being that
interested. The first few times I tried to
read it I couldn't get through it.
I find it's style to be how you say very French?
Dominque Aury was an intellectual, they
have those in France, and the book reflects
that. The setting is mostly poppycock
but the setting isn't what the book is
about. The book is about the power of
sex and desire. It's not just some book
that collects a writers fantasies.
It didn't come about because she decided
to write down what she jerked off to
one night and call it a book.
Next to Gray's "author" she looks like Proust.
Proust doesn't have much of a mass
audience. But "dirty books" that make
people feel naughty and daring do.


_____________________________

A thousand dreams within me softly burn.
Rimbaud




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RE: Do we expect too much out if BDSM Literature? - 6/24/2012 11:52:51 AM   
Ldeathnote


Posts: 3
Joined: 9/11/2011
Status: offline 		Thank you so much having this post.I really believe that the 50 shades series is the worst book ever written other the twilight sage because of the way that the authors have no idea of what they are writing about in the first place.The authors have a dream or googling a topic to make a book doesn't and shouldn't make their profits out something that others view as sacred/discreet to them.I can't give an opinion about the beauty series because I never read it but I have read the vampire chronicles and I love them along with Anna Rice as both a writer and author.

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RE: Do we expect too much out if BDSM Literature? - 6/24/2012 11:55:39 AM   
Ldeathnote


Posts: 3
Joined: 9/11/2011
Status: offline 		I am not vanilla by the way lol

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RE: Do we expect too much out if BDSM Literature? - 6/24/2012 12:01:58 PM   
Ldeathnote


Posts: 3
Joined: 9/11/2011
Status: offline 		I have a ton of my vanilla friends are reading the 50 shades series and they literally think while its fake that this is how a d/s relationship works so yes an author's disclaimer should be considered.

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RE: Do we expect too much out if BDSM Literature? - 6/24/2012 12:04:39 PM   
MalcolmNathaniel


Posts: 1394
Joined: 9/20/2010
Status: offline 		Holy wall of text Batman!
I'll attempt to read your post if you reformat it.

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RE: Do we expect too much out if BDSM Literature? - 6/24/2012 12:11:10 PM   
Winterapple


Posts: 1343
Joined: 8/19/2011
Status: offline 		I expect a book I have been asked to pay money
for to be adequately crafted and edited.

There are adequately written books with
kink and bdsm, escapist fiction that comes
from the romance genre that don't have
Gray's shortcomings.



_____________________________

A thousand dreams within me softly burn.
Rimbaud




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RE: Do we expect too much out if BDSM Literature? - 6/24/2012 12:13:29 PM   
Winterapple


Posts: 1343
Joined: 8/19/2011
Status: offline 		Sorry, can't.

_____________________________

A thousand dreams within me softly burn.
Rimbaud




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RE: Do we expect too much out if BDSM Literature? - 6/24/2012 12:42:59 PM   
delilahdelight


Posts: 33
Joined: 11/3/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MalcolmNathaniel
Everyone keeps claiming that they are unrealistic. Well of course they bloody well are! They are fantasies!
Hell, Gor and Beauty are explicitly set in fantasy worlds.
None of these are attempting to portray the reality of BDSM.


I give you that Gor and Beauty are indeed entrenched in the realm of the fantasy genre. 50 Shades, however, has been put out there as realistic fiction. It most certainly shouldn't have been because now, too many think that Christian and Ana are the go-to role models for the D/s dynamic. How truly unfortunate as not all Dominants hold to misogynistic and violent ideals due to an abusive past, and not all submissives are naive to the point of ridiculousness. Yet, due to this book, most mainstream readers think just that. For a few reasons, that bothers me.

Mostly though, I diss the book because I feel that the writing isn't even close to acceptable, the characters are unbelievable despite their given attributes, and the sex, at times, verges on the unintended comical.

It's not so much that I expect too much out of BDSM Literature, rather I'm dissapointed that craptastic writing on the subject is considered valid and of worth.

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RE: Do we expect too much out if BDSM Literature? - 6/24/2012 1:27:40 PM   
Moonlightmaddnes


Posts: 958
Joined: 6/4/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ldeathnote

Thank you so much having this post.I really believe that the 50 shades series is the worst book ever written other the twilight sage because of the way that the authors have no idea of what they are writing about in the first place.The authors have a dream or googling a topic to make a book doesn't and shouldn't make their profits out something that others view as sacred/discreet to them.I can't give an opinion about the beauty series because I never read it but I have read the vampire chronicles and I love them along with Anna Rice as both a writer and author.



Oh I have read a lot of books on many different genres and trust me 50 shades may not be reality BDSM but it is far from the worst book ever written.

Why shouldn't they make a profit out of something they dream about?

I haven't read the Vampire chronicles. Is it another Twilight or Vampire Diaries? I did not like either of those really.

_____________________________

Submission is a gift that must be earned. It can be given, but never taken


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RE: Do we expect too much out if BDSM Literature? - 6/24/2012 1:27:58 PM   
ResidentSadist


Posts: 12580
Joined: 2/11/2007
From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
Status: offline 		Some guy with decent intellect and all the criteria to make him potential relationship material just flew in for a date with my ex (christycougar). He bought her a copy of 50 Shades of Grey trilogy . . . then started in about buying her house up north and asked her to tell her friends she will be signing a contract soon etc.

Yup, that was the end of him. Poor sucker, lost out on a fine submissive piece womanhood . . . all because of trying to shove a BDSM fantasy from some erotic novel into reality. Maybe it was her history in porn that made him think she would bite off into that dumb shit? Do people think porn stars are stupid, they are all for sale? A porn actress often has more overall common sense, firmer limits and a better grip on reality than the average girl because she interacts with so many people on an intimate level. She has to be well grounded. You can't go, "here is house, you my bitch now . . . read these 3 books and tell your friends" . . . ROFLMNAO

If we are gonna' trade fantasies for shelter, someone get me a midget shemale nun and a donkey please... I have a spare house for them.

Fucking BDSM tourists never fail to astound me.





_____________________________

-=BDSM Book List=- Reading is Fundamental !!!
I give good thread.

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RE: Do we expect too much out if BDSM Literature? - 6/24/2012 1:31:18 PM   
Moonlightmaddnes


Posts: 958
Joined: 6/4/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

Some guy with decent intellect and all the criteria to make him potential relationship material just flew in for a date with my ex (christycougar). He bought her a copy of 50 Shades of Grey trilogy . . . then started in about buying her house up north and asked her to tell her friends she will be signing a contract soon etc.

Yup, that was the end of him. Poor sucker, lost out on a fine submissive piece womanhood . . . all because of trying to shove a BDSM fantasy from some erotic novel into reality. Maybe it was her history in porn that made him think she would bite off into that dumb shit? Do people think porn stars are stupid, they are all for sale? A porn actress often has more overall common sense, firmer limits and a better grip on reality than the average girl because she interacts with so many people on an intimate level. She has to be well grounded. You can't go, "here is house, you my bitch now . . . read these 3 books and tell your friends" . . . ROFLMNAO

If we are gonna' trade fantasies for shelter, someone get me a midget shemale nun and a donkey please... I have a spare house for them.

Fucking BDSM tourists never fail to astound me.







Really? I hope you are joking? No sane person would say oh well since you bought me a book then of course I will. I really hope you are joking otherwise I am shaking my head in shock.

_____________________________

Submission is a gift that must be earned. It can be given, but never taken


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RE: Do we expect too much out if BDSM Literature? - 6/24/2012 1:34:44 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist
Fucking BDSM tourists never fail to astound me.



I mentioned that term on another thread in another context. That's the other problem that I have with it. I see it coming already.




_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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RE: Do we expect too much out if BDSM Literature? - 6/24/2012 2:01:16 PM   
ResidentSadist


Posts: 12580
Joined: 2/11/2007
From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonlightmaddnes


quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

Some guy with decent intellect and all the criteria to make him potential relationship material just flew in for a date with my ex (christycougar). He bought her a copy of 50 Shades of Grey trilogy . . . then started in about buying her house up north and asked her to tell her friends she will be signing a contract soon etc.

Yup, that was the end of him. Poor sucker, lost out on a fine submissive piece womanhood . . . all because of trying to shove a BDSM fantasy from some erotic novel into reality. Maybe it was her history in porn that made him think she would bite off into that dumb shit? Do people think porn stars are stupid, they are all for sale? A porn actress often has more overall common sense, firmer limits and a better grip on reality than the average girl because she interacts with so many people on an intimate level. She has to be well grounded. You can't go, "here is house, you my bitch now . . . read these 3 books and tell your friends" . . . ROFLMNAO

If we are gonna' trade fantasies for shelter, someone get me a midget shemale nun and a donkey please... I have a spare house for them.

Fucking BDSM tourists never fail to astound me.







Really? I hope you are joking? No sane person would say oh well since you bought me a book then of course I will. I really hope you are joking otherwise I am shaking my head in shock.

I am not joking. He gave her the books and offered her a house . . . it was a nice house. 5,700 sq ft house, on an acre, next to a forest (State Park). Had an outdoor garden, gazebo w/grill and an indoor pool. I don't don't know if he planned that as her dwelling where he visited her at his will or was gonna' stay there with her. He has a real nice house of his own. But yep, he expected her to read that book and go live there.

_____________________________

-=BDSM Book List=- Reading is Fundamental !!!
I give good thread.

(in reply to Moonlightmaddnes)
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