quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Many were community based run hospitals... those days are long gone.
Costs went down initially when HMO's and the like started taking over. Then they bought up all the hospitals in the area, which allowed them to raise prices.. no competition.
That's a barn door that's been too long open. And people should not have to become sicker or die simply because our government got greedy and didn't watch out for their best interests.

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How can preventative care drive up costs? Think about it.
As far as people not wanting to see a Doctor if they can afford it.. come on.

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quote:

Why are those days long gone? There is no barn door that has been open too long. Any door can be shut. You're just taking the path of least resistance.

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Is our system perfect? Hell no. Can we make it better? Hell yes. People aren't motivated to make it better. And, we can do much better (we used to, as you have noted), without Government taking over.

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Lemme see... health care is a limited resource ... we are pushing for more people to see a family physician more often (increasing demand) ... and you can't see how increasing demand on a limited resource without increasing the supply of that resource isn't going to result in an increase in cost?

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Or, are you talking about not letting the cost rise (price control)? Wanna show me where price controls work without resulting in a decrease in quality?

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
GSK and Pfizer are two of the largest corporations in the pharmaceutical business. If they behave like this is a regulated environment, just imagine how they might behave in an unregulated environment ...... Yet DS advocates putting the US consumer, already paying far too much for healthcare, at the mercy of these parasitical racketters by "getting the government out of healthcare".
It all looks a bit like giving the Mafia the keys to the banks .......

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Is our system perfect? Hell no. Can we make it better? Hell yes. People aren't motivated to make it better. And, we can do much better (we used to, as you have noted), without Government taking over.

Government didnt take over... government gave in to greed.

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quote:

Lemme see... health care is a limited resource ... we are pushing for more people to see a family physician more often (increasing demand) ... and you can't see how increasing demand on a limited resource without increasing the supply of that resource isn't going to result in an increase in cost?

Health care is a service as well as a limited resource. Every year med students are denied residencies... something the health care law addresses.
Read the law.

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Or, are you talking about not letting the cost rise (price control)? Wanna show me where price controls work without resulting in a decrease in quality?

Again, you never answered... which is cheaper in both costs and utilization of resources.. high BP or a stroke?

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quote:

Your proposition is for Government to take over without eliminating the greed. That just makes it worse.

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Magically appearing physicians. Nice. Does the law increase the AMA's limit on credentialing? Does the law do anything about the AMA's monopoly power to credential physicians?

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Depends on the outcome of the stroke, but, in general, it's cheaper to control high BP. But, that's also not what I'm arguing against. I'm arguing against focusing on treating the symptoms rather than focusing on treating the problem. Reduce your stress. Reduce your consumption. Reduce the frenetic pace of your lifestyle and your BP will likely come into line without medicines, and you'll have more and will be happier to boot. Treat the problem, not the symptom. It's always cheaper.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

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Your proposition is for Government to take over without eliminating the greed. That just makes it worse.

In your mind, the only way to go is backwards. In my mind, the only way is forward. National health care, in some form or another, is here to stay.

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Magically appearing physicians. Nice. Does the law increase the AMA's limit on credentialing? Does the law do anything about the AMA's monopoly power to credential physicians?

Your ignorance is showing yet again... read the law.

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Depends on the outcome of the stroke, but, in general, it's cheaper to control high BP. But, that's also not what I'm arguing against. I'm arguing against focusing on treating the symptoms rather than focusing on treating the problem. Reduce your stress. Reduce your consumption. Reduce the frenetic pace of your lifestyle and your BP will likely come into line without medicines, and you'll have more and will be happier to boot. Treat the problem, not the symptom. It's always cheaper.

Likely?

quote:

What Causes High Blood Pressure?
In more than 90 percent of cases, no single identifiable cause can be pinpointed, but risk factors include a family history of high blood pressure, gender (women are at one-half to two-thirds the risk of men), race (incidence is up to twice as great among blacks as among whites), emotional stress, sedentary lifestyle, and aging. Obesity, excessive alcohol consumption, cigarette smoking, and a high-sodium diet also increase the risk of high blood pressure.
When an underlying cause can be identified, the condition is known as secondary hypertension. Such causes include kidney disorders, adrenal tumors, and pregnancy.

Prevention of High Blood Pressure




• Keep weight within a healthy, normal range.
  
• Avoid cigarettes and restrict alcohol intake to no more than two drinks a day.
  
• Aim to get at least 20 minutes of vigorous aerobic exercise (like jogging, biking, dancing, or swimming) a day, three or four days a week.
  
• Limit intake of sodium to less than 2,500 mg a day.
  

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For everyone who has high blood pressure or is at risk of developing high blood pressure, lifestyle changes can help keep your numbers under control. Before beginning blood pressure treatment, it's a good idea to understand the options available to you.
...
Lifestyle changes




• Don't smoke
  
• Eat a healthy diet, focusing on fruits, vegetables and low-fat dairy products, and especially, control the salt in your diet
  
• Maintain a healthy weight
  
• Exercise by getting 30 minutes of moderate activity — even if you need to break up your activity into three 10-minute sessions — on most days of the week
  
• Limit the amount of alcohol you drink — one drink a day for women and two a day for men
  

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie
Ya know a lot of folks pick on this guy's posts but, he's pretty much on the money.

Thank you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

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Why are those days long gone? There is no barn door that has been open too long. Any door can be shut. You're just taking the path of least resistance.

What do you propose? Suddenly forcing the mega corporatoins to sell off their hospitals? To who? Who can afford them?

Come on.

quote:

Is our system perfect? Hell no. Can we make it better? Hell yes. People aren't motivated to make it better. And, we can do much better (we used to, as you have noted), without Government taking over.

Government didnt take over... government gave in to greed.

quote:

Lemme see... health care is a limited resource ... we are pushing for more people to see a family physician more often (increasing demand) ... and you can't see how increasing demand on a limited resource without increasing the supply of that resource isn't going to result in an increase in cost?

Health care is a service as well as a limited resource. Every year med students are denied residencies... something the health care law addresses.

Read the law.

quote:

Or, are you talking about not letting the cost rise (price control)? Wanna show me where price controls work without resulting in a decrease in quality?

Again, you never answered... which is cheaper in both costs and utilization of resources.. high BP or a stroke?

quote:

Prevention of High Blood Pressure

Keep weight within a healthy, normal range.
Avoid cigarettes and restrict alcohol intake to no more than two drinks a day.
Aim to get at least 20 minutes of vigorous aerobic exercise (like jogging, biking, dancing, or swimming) a day, three or four days a week.
Limit intake of sodium to less than 2,500 mg a day.

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Doctor’s advice is recommendable in such times of crisis. They usually recommend a proper diet chart, changes to lifestyle and prescribed medicines."

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For everyone who has high blood pressure or is at risk of developing high blood pressure, lifestyle changes can help keep your numbers under control.

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Thus, if we correct our lifestyles, it very well can help. And, oh, that's what I'm talking about.

quote:

DesideriScuri
quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
GSK and Pfizer are two of the largest corporations in the pharmaceutical business. If they behave like this is a regulated environment, just imagine how they might behave in an unregulated environment ...... Yet DS advocates putting the US consumer, already paying far too much for healthcare, at the mercy of these parasitical racketters by "getting the government out of healthcare". I
It all looks a bit like giving the Mafia the keys to the banks .......

Yeah, because having Government in health care has worked so well for us. Giving the Mafia the keys to the bank is putting the Government in charge of health care while it is already bought and paid for by Big Pharma and Big Insurance.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
What Causes High Blood Pressure?
In more than 90 percent of cases, no single identifiable cause can be pinpointed, but risk factors include a family history of high blood pressure, gender (women are at one-half to two-thirds the risk of men), race (incidence is up to twice as great among blacks as among whites), emotional stress, sedentary lifestyle, and aging. Obesity, excessive alcohol consumption, cigarette smoking, and a high-sodium diet also increase the risk of high blood pressure.
When an underlying cause can be identified, the condition is known as secondary hypertension. Such causes include kidney disorders, adrenal tumors, and pregnancy.
Mayo clinic... the source most professionals will accept over all others. This was your source. People can be fat, smokers, alcoholics, with all members of their family having high BP and never develop it themselves. Which is why you will not find a source anywhere that will say... those things cause high bp.

quote:

quote:

Prevention of High Blood Pressure
Keep weight within a healthy, normal range.
Avoid cigarettes and restrict alcohol intake to no more than two drinks a day.
Aim to get at least 20 minutes of vigorous aerobic exercise (like jogging, biking, dancing, or swimming) a day, three or four days a week.
Limit intake of sodium to less than 2,500 mg a day.

There are skinny people who never drink, smoke, who exercise daily and eat healthy and still develop high bp.

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Doctor’s advice is recommendable in such times of crisis. They usually recommend a proper diet chart, changes to lifestyle and prescribed medicines."

Thats the treatment.. not the cause.

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quote:

For everyone who has high blood pressure or is at risk of developing high blood pressure, lifestyle changes can help keep your numbers under control.

Again, standard medical treatment... none of those things being eliminated will prevent someone from getting high bp.

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quote:

Thus, if we correct our lifestyles, it very well can help. And, oh, that's what I'm talking about.

Its helps once you have it... and how do you discover if you have it? You have preventative care. And, oh, thats what I am talking about.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

DesideriScuri
Yeah, because having Government in health care has worked so well for us. Giving the Mafia the keys to the bank is putting the Government in charge of health care while it is already bought and paid for by Big Pharma and Big Insurance.

Here in a nutshell is why DS keeps clinging to his erroneous views. Faced with having to explain away corrupt and unethical behaviour admitted by his friends in BigPharma, DS out of the blue, blames ........ not Big Pharma ..... not greedy private companies but ...... the Government!

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As no evidence is offered to support this wild claim, I can only assume that, as a matter of policy, whenever the law is broken, DS holds the Govt responsible. The only rational explanation for this gigantic leap of faith is that it is ideologically inspired. DS's claim is consistent with his ideology, even if though the facts contradict it.

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This is why DS is unable to accept that lack of health care can be fatal, or that universal schemes are better than private ones, despite all the incontrovertible evidence he has been shown in this and other threads. No matter the circumstances, the Govt is always to blame. Even when BigPharma openly admits to and confesses its crimes, and agrees to pay billions to the Govt in fines, the Govt is somehow held responsible for BigPharma's corruption. Apparently BigPharma escapes any culpability because, in DS's account, the "[The US Govt] is already bought and paid for by Big Pharma and Big Insurance" ....!!!!!! Sorry I need to have any logic in that absurd rationalisation explained to me.
Childish.

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quote:

And there are smokers who don't get lung cancer. Does smoking cause lung cancer?
Does sun exposure cause skin cancer? Does everyone who gets over exposed to the sun get skin cancer?

And, for the unfortunate few who do fall into the description you provided, medication can help. But, it's healthier to do what you can before resorting to medication.

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I listed them as risk factors. And, you do realize that "no single identifiable cause" could very well mean that two of those things together could cause it? Neither one can cause it by itself, but combined, it's possible? Better to take care of the stuff you're capable of effecting than not, I'd say.

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I'm not seeing your point. I know that's the recommendation. I quoted it. but, they also do recommend proper diet and lifestyle changes.

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Are you 100% sure? What's the point of recommending them if they have no effect?

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I'm all for preventive care, tazzy. I am. I'd just rather see people do what they can prior to resorting to medicine. And, we, as a Nation, don't do that. We tend to do whatever the fuck we want and deal with the consequences later. And, that, is much more expensive. At no point in time have I ever stated that preventive care wasn't needed, or that reactive care wasn't needed.

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Lack of health care never killed anyone. Lack of health care can't kill anyone. If a guy gets attacked by a bear in the woods and bleeds out because there isn't an EMT that can get their in time, is the lack of health care what killed him, or was it the bear?

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

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Lack of health care never killed anyone. Lack of health care can't kill anyone. If a guy gets attacked by a bear in the woods and bleeds out because there isn't an EMT that can get their in time, is the lack of health care what killed him, or was it the bear?

The bear.

quote:


And health care would not be denied that person if they made it to an ER.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Nope.. I find them funny, actually. Here I have someone who says he is a physical therapists (or, I think that is what he said he was) telling me what causes and doesnt cause high bp and that it can all be changed by our habits.. and only our habits.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
And, you know what happens when someone requires less medical care?