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RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without heal... - 7/1/2012 12:47:29 AM   
tweakabelle


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From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

DesideriScuri
Is Australia the same in consumption? Is Australia similar in obesity levels? Was Australia the same as the US in who owns the hospitals and the insurance companies?

I'd be surprised if Australia is the same as the US in any of those 3 things. And, if those 3 things aren't the same, the administration and effect of a similar UHC won't be the same here as it was there.

I'm all for lowering the cost of care. But, it has to lower the cost of care for everybody. It can't just shift the cost of care to "the rich," or else there is no actual cost-savings.


If you wish to discover more about health care here, there are a number of academic texts available on Medicare, its history etc. Google is your friend. For a broad overview, check out wiki here

I'm not sure it's useful to get into minute detail over the similarities and differences between the US and Australia. At a macro level there are few countries more similar. Of course there will be variations but I doubt if the differences between here and the US would be greater than the differences between Florida and Alaska.

A news report here a few days ago had a 'typical American family' with an income of $48,000pa paying $13,000pa for healthcare. That would be more than the total tax deduction for all Govt. services for an equivalent family here. We pay 9.1% of GDP for 100% coverage healthcare, the US pays c16% and that leaves 50,000,000 Americans without coverage. The disparity is such that any over charging would seem to be in the US private system.

This is especially apparent in prescription drug costs. Here the Govt acts as "single buyer" for the entire population and negotiates favourable deals with the pharmaceutical companies so that no necessary prescription drugs are unaffordable. See here for details. So almost all prescriptions cost less than $10 to fill at the chemists (even less for those on benefits). Some version of this scheme like this would be easily transferable to US conditions and save US consumers billions. It completely changes the power dynamics between consumers and Big Pharma.

Markets work best when the name of the game is profit, when the outcome can be measured in dollars and cents. Healthcare is different - we can't accurately put a $ figure on a person's health. In healthcare the end object is health, not profit and the international experience is that public systems offer far better coverage with far better health outcomes for far fewer $ than private systems.


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RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without heal... - 7/1/2012 7:32:08 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
I'm not sure it's useful to get into minute detail over the similarities and differences between the US and Australia. At a macro level there are few countries more similar. Of course there will be variations but I doubt if the differences between here and the US would be greater than the differences between Florida and Alaska.


The 3 things I brought up, are not minute details. Part of the problem in the US, is that our lifestyle is such, that consumption is king. We consume to excess and beyond. And, yes, I do absolutely believe that is massively important.

quote:


A news report here a few days ago had a 'typical American family' with an income of $48,000pa paying $13,000pa for healthcare. That would be more than the total tax deduction for all Govt. services for an equivalent family here. We pay 9.1% of GDP for 100% coverage healthcare, the US pays c16% and that leaves 50,000,000 Americans without coverage. The disparity is such that any over charging would seem to be in the US private system.
This is especially apparent in prescription drug costs. Here the Govt acts as "single buyer" for the entire population and negotiates favourable deals with the pharmaceutical companies so that no necessary prescription drugs are unaffordable. See here for details. So almost all prescriptions cost less than $10 to fill at the chemists (even less for those on benefits). Some version of this scheme like this would be easily transferable to US conditions and save US consumers billions. It completely changes the power dynamics between consumers and Big Pharma.


And here is where you are missing the boat. Big Pharma and our elected officials will always be linked until we can sever the $$ ties between them. PPACA doesn't do that. If anything, PPACA strengthened that link.

quote:


Markets work best when the name of the game is profit, when the outcome can be measured in dollars and cents. Healthcare is different - we can't accurately put a $ figure on a person's health. In healthcare the end object is health, not profit and the international experience is that public systems offer far better coverage with far better health outcomes for far fewer $ than private systems.


One of the big problems that we have here is the curative nature of our medical system. If we had a more preventive system, we'd have a lower spend. That's been a big push within the higher education teaching towards emphasizing preventive care to lower costs. The American populace isn't "into" a preventive lifestyle. We are into a consumption lifestyle and putting off the responsible actions (and as much responsibility for the consequences as possible) for later and onto others. Enabling further responsibility shifting is what PPACA does.

And, may I also direct your attention to your Constitution requiring an amendment to give your Federal Government Constitutional authority to institute NHI? I have said well before I ever registered with CM that if an amendment to the Constitution giving the Federal Government uthority over health care was passed, I'd have no basis for my argument against UHC.

With the focus on consumption in the US, I still doubt UHC would have the same fiscal benefits that are realized elsewhere, and I still believe, beyond a shadow of doubt, that Government is the biggest inhibitor of solid Market solutions because of it's corruption to Big Pharma, Big Insurance, and Big Medicine.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 162
RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without heal... - 7/1/2012 7:44:30 AM   
atursvcMaam


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Status: offline 		Drinking and Driving kills many each year. Quit smoking or you are going to die. C'mon, folks die all the time. Does this report say how many people die maturely, or how many llive way past their correct life spans? That may be a crude thought, but it sounds as if everyone should have a predictable expiration date. Is it more polite to die early or to exceed your expected time on earth?

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RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without heal... - 7/1/2012 9:20:06 AM   
Lucylastic


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Status: offline 		everybody dies, no REALLY???? Fuck I never knew that.
Good god. Being unable to afford to go to the right place to get help with what is ailing you simply because you dont have the funds is what the problem is.
Please dont be utterly ridiculous.

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RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without heal... - 7/1/2012 9:23:50 AM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		I wonder if everybody who's complaining about that problem now finds the fact that the medical insurance companies bitchesRepublicans fillibustered the single payer provision out of the act a little embarrassing?
Or do they feel that was still the correct way to go?

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RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without heal... - 7/1/2012 9:26:15 AM   
Lucylastic


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Status: offline 		theres no doubt that its unpopular and will be used to its full exctent until november, but it paves the way for either of them to say they will implement the simple payer as an answer.If they dont, they are stupid...both sides

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Profile   Post #: 166
RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without heal... - 7/1/2012 9:28:26 AM   
Moonhead


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Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		I honestly can't see what the fuck the point of the thing is without that clause included. As it stands, it might be a groundwork so that can be introduced later, but as is, it's doing sod all.
(Which makes all that "OMG! The sky is falling! AAAAARGH!" hysteria from our rightist massive even funnier than normal, I admit...)

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RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without heal... - 7/1/2012 9:32:03 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		you KNOW i aint gonna disagree with you there, hehhe



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Profile   Post #: 168
RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without heal... - 7/1/2012 10:15:11 AM   
atursvcMaam


Posts: 1195
Joined: 5/10/2004
Status: offline 		Maybe just a bit ridiculous, but not utterly, Who will decide what is a premature death, and who will decide who are the "bitter clingers" (thoroughly out of context and unrelated quote) to life in this world.

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live hard, die young and leave a good looking corpse when you die.
Love ya, but, when the zombies start chasing us, i am tripping you.
The glass is always full, the question is, "with what?"

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Profile   Post #: 169
RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without heal... - 7/1/2012 10:19:31 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		medicine has been redefining it for centuries.


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Profile   Post #: 170
RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without heal... - 7/1/2012 10:38:58 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: atursvcMaam

Maybe just a bit ridiculous, but not utterly, Who will decide what is a premature death, and who will decide who are the "bitter clingers" (thoroughly out of context and unrelated quote) to life in this world.


Once upon a time, a preemie would never have survived. Shall we roll back the clock?

Once upon a time, someone needing a new heart valve would have died.

Once upon a time, cancer was a death sentence, regardless of where it was located.

Tell me... who has the right to decide?

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Profile   Post #: 171
RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without heal... - 7/1/2012 10:41:53 AM   
atursvcMaam


Posts: 1195
Joined: 5/10/2004
Status: offline 		True, but when politicians seem to get into this mix the question changes from "can i fix this problem" to "what's in it for me?"

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live hard, die young and leave a good looking corpse when you die.
Love ya, but, when the zombies start chasing us, i am tripping you.
The glass is always full, the question is, "with what?"

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Profile   Post #: 172
RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without heal... - 7/1/2012 11:07:49 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		Just like the insurance companies
snorts

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Profile   Post #: 173
RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without heal... - 7/1/2012 5:01:00 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
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quote:

ORIGINAL: atursvcMaam
Drinking and Driving kills many each year. Quit smoking or you are going to die.


That will be addressed at a later time, I'm sure. Simply for not other reason than for "cost containment."

quote:


C'mon, folks die all the time. Does this report say how many people die maturely, or how many llive way past their correct life spans? That may be a crude thought, but it sounds as if everyone should have a predictable expiration date. Is it more polite to die early or to exceed your expected time on earth?


There is no "predictable expiration date." There is no "correct" life span. There is a lifespan. It can be manipulated by the choices you make. Sometimes Life manipulates your lifespan regardless of the choices you make. There is no "minimum" amount of time someone is "guaranteed" to live to. To think otherwise is foolish.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to atursvcMaam)
Profile   Post #: 174
RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without heal... - 7/2/2012 4:42:11 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

DesideriScuri
And here is where you are missing the boat. Big Pharma and our elected officials will always be linked until we can sever the $$ ties between them.

Some one is missing the boat all right. But it's not me, I'm the one paying $10 per script. I'm not the one prevented from accessing affordable drugs because of collusion between "Big Pharma and [US] elected officials" or prevented from obtaining best quality healthcare because I can't afford it.

Don't you find it odd that you are calling for Big Pharma to have even more control over US citizens lives and healthcare by insisting on exclusively market-based solutions, solutions that will favour Big Pharma, always have and always will, while asserting that the same Big Pharma's corrupt relationship with your elected officials is at the heart of the problem? Particularly when overseas experience is that the solution is to use democratic powers to tame the power of Big Pharma through creating universal health systems and appropriate regulation.

The fastest easiest and best way for US citizens to enjoy the benefits of a universal health scheme is to exercise your democratic rights and elect a Congress and a President committed to a universal health scheme and get one enacted.

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RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without heal... - 7/2/2012 9:12:39 AM   
SilverMark


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Status: offline 		When do they start the death panels, I think Sarah Palin has a cold!

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RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without heal... - 7/2/2012 9:20:01 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		hahahaha... nice to see you posting again!

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 177
RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without heal... - 7/2/2012 9:25:27 AM   
SilverMark


Posts: 3457
Joined: 5/9/2007
Status: offline 		I come through once in awhile!...I just knew there would be some fun to be had on the Affordable Health Care Act.

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If you have sex with a siamese twin, is it considered a threesome?

The trouble with ignorance is that it picks up confidence as it goes along.
- Arnold H. Glasow

It may be your sole purpose in life to simply serve as a warning to others!

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 178
RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without heal... - 7/2/2012 10:36:12 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		But of course.. I am having fun pointint out how little others understand what they are complaining about

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to SilverMark)
Profile   Post #: 179
RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without heal... - 7/2/2012 11:46:25 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
quote:

DesideriScuri
And here is where you are missing the boat. Big Pharma and our elected officials will always be linked until we can sever the $$ ties between them.

Some one is missing the boat all right. But it's not me, I'm the one paying $10 per script. I'm not the one prevented from accessing affordable drugs because of collusion between "Big Pharma and [US] elected officials" or prevented from obtaining best quality healthcare because I can't afford it.
Don't you find it odd that you are calling for Big Pharma to have even more control over US citizens lives and healthcare by insisting on exclusively market-based solutions, solutions that will favour Big Pharma, always have and always will, while asserting that the same Big Pharma's corrupt relationship with your elected officials is at the heart of the problem? Particularly when overseas experience is that the solution is to use democratic powers to tame the power of Big Pharma through creating universal health systems and appropriate regulation.
The fastest easiest and best way for US citizens to enjoy the benefits of a universal health scheme is to exercise your democratic rights and elect a Congress and a President committed to a universal health scheme and get one enacted.


This scheme will not, I repeat, will not, lower the cost of care. It lowers the cost of insurance, for some. Yet, up to 38% of the "uninsured" make over $50k/yr. and have chosen not to buy health insurance. If we have 45.7M people uninsured, that means 5.7% of Americans are not purchasing insurance even though they make over $50k/year. Makes you wonder who the 1-2% of "free riders" are, if 5.7% of the population doesn't have insurance and makes over $50k/year. Obama's top end estimate for the tax penalty is $700. Where can you buy insurance for $700/yr.? What happens when one of those people walks into an ER?

I pay $69/month total for 2 Rx's that I paid $25 in co-pay's for when I had insurance. My costs have risen $44/month. But, nothing else was paid for those Rx's. $170 was paid for those Rx's when I had insurance, but only $25 out of my pocket. My therapist charges $150, but the insurance reduced it to $90, including a $15 co-pay. I now pay $65 ($50 more), but it's still $25 less than when I had insurance. I have yet to go to a physician for a checkup or anything, so I can't tell you what that cost is ($15 co-pay was all it was before). To add it all up, I pay $134 for 2 medications and a monthly therapy session. That is a grand total of $94 more out of my pocket, and $126 less than when I had insurance.

How is it that forcing more people onto insurance plans is going to reduce costs? I've been without a plan, and the health care expenditure for me has dropped almost in half.

Plus, Obama calls this a "penalty" for free riders. If I pay for all my medications and appointments by myself, how is it going to be okay for me to be penalized for being a "free rider" when 1. it wasn't free, and 2. all my care costs were borne by me and only me?



_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 180
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