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RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without heal... - 6/26/2012 5:46:26 AM   
Sanity


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Health care killed a relative a couple of months ago

He got new knees, and a blood clot from the procedure killed him

quote:

ORIGINAL: ClassIsInSession

The counter to this is simple: In Hospital Deaths from Medical Errors at 195,000 per Year USA, ummm that's 8 times as many people thereabouts no?



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RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without heal... - 6/26/2012 5:52:40 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mcbride
Hey! Good news! You've won Cheesy Semantic Dodge of the Week!
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
At no point in time is the cause of death lack of insurance. It is not possible for someone to die because they lacked insurance.

A country has universal health care for the same reason it has armed forces: to protect the lives of its citizens. If you dismantle your military ("too socialist, this collective defense thing") and some other country does the predictable thing and invades, citizens die, of bullet wounds, of sharpnel wounds, of starvation and disease, but "it is not possible for someone to die because they lacked" an army, huh? Was it "their time"?


Uh, no. We don't have a military to protect the citizens. We have a military to protect the country. Would it be protecting our citizenry if Cuba were to take over Florida, if, in doing so, they didn't kill anyone, but forced everyone to move north? No citizens died, but would our military have any action? Where was our military when face-eater struck? Was there a military response? No. The military deals with national threats, not threats to a citizen. You are clouding the topic, purposely, to make your point. And, may I make this perfectly clear, "provide for the common defence ... of the United States of America" is actually in the Constitution, and Universal Health Care, is not the general welfare spoken of in the Constitution. Big difference there.

quote:


C'mon. If you restrict access to medical care, guess what happens. People die. Children die. If it weren't so, you could put all the hospitals up for sale tomorrow.


Who is restricting access? Actually, a better question is, what is restricting access?

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
What is the definition of "prematurely?" And, who says it wasn't "their time" to die anyway? Is there some age that we are supposed to get to and if we don't, we die prematurely?

And, sorry but yes, people do die prematurely, particularly if their death was preventable.


Hold on now. I think we have a winner here! The "death was preventable" means that something is killing these people. Lack of health care isn't what is killing these people. Lack of health care may allow the disease to end that life, but it is still the disease that is doing the killing.


I have to admit it surprises me when any American chooses ideology over the lives of other Americans.


Really? What does it have to do with "other Americans?" People on here will bring up the UN's Declaration of Human Rights. Well, that's just fine and dandy, so that means that if I have a human right to health care, my Mexican neighbor has a right to health care, and so does the Canadian on the other side. As a matter of fact, when a Russian comes over, he/she has a right to health care, too. How is it we're going to deny all those starving Africans health care, food, water, etc.? What's more important? Food, clean water or health care?



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What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

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Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without heal... - 6/26/2012 6:04:03 AM   
mnottertail


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If the country is not citizens, it is not government of the people, by the people, and for the people, which is what the teabaggers and neo-cons have been pushing against for so long. 

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RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without heal... - 6/26/2012 7:22:40 AM   
Arturas


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quote:

A country has universal health care for the same reason it has armed forces: to protect the lives of its citizens.


Ah, where did that come from? Here is a bit of reality for you.

Armed forces are a Government function to meet foreign threats to the country and are supported by taxes. Citizens are entitled to be protected by the Army but only because those who are willing to pay for it do so knowing that protecting the entire country is good for them and so they don't worry about deadbeats not paying taxes to support the Army are also protected. The service is not personal.

Healthcare is a private service to meet health threats to those who desire and can pay for the service. Healthcare service is personal and so those who are willing and able to pay for it do care if deadbeats not paying for their healthcare share in the service. Notice that those who cannot pay for healthcare because they are unemployed do indeed only get basic healthcare services provided as a charity and that is the way it is because there is not enough tax money in the entire country to change that without taking it from the armed forces and Social Security and education unless you tax or take more money from those who earned it, thereby forcing those who make money to leave the country with their wealth making it a country of deadbeats instead of a country of the exceptional.

So, forum post as you will, vote for as many left wing politicians as you will, but this will not change because it is impossible no matter how you vote because to pay for it will require taking wealth from those who earned it and giving it to those who did not and that will not happen in a country of free citizens.

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RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without heal... - 6/26/2012 7:43:57 AM   
mnottertail


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What useless, frivolous asswipe that little bit of random letters is.

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Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without heal... - 6/26/2012 7:59:06 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

Healthcare is a private service to meet health threats to those who desire and can pay for the service. Healthcare service is personal and so those who are willing and able to pay for it do care if deadbeats not paying for their healthcare share in the service. Notice that those who cannot pay for healthcare because they are unemployed do indeed only get basic healthcare services provided as a charity and that is the way it is because there is not enough tax money in the entire country to change that without taking it from the armed forces and Social Security and education unless you tax or take more money from those who earned it, thereby forcing those who make money to leave the country with their wealth making it a country of deadbeats instead of a country of the exceptional.


That sentence should be in a textbook for students to parse and revise.

Grammar aside, it's bullshit. The entire point of expanding coverage is to broaden the base to pay for those needing health care. It was Gingrich's idea in the early 90s. It's the system Romney set up in Massachusetts.

It's how insurance works.

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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without heal... - 6/26/2012 8:57:34 AM   
subrob1967


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
You will have to link me up with a source for all that. Medicaid in some states is not open to anyone who doesnt have small children. Thankfully, I dont live in one of those states.

And what do they consider low cost?


Here's the cost chart for Healthy Indiana Plan
Indiana Medicaid programs


< Message edited by subrob1967 -- 6/26/2012 8:58:21 AM >


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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without heal... - 6/26/2012 9:00:33 AM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

Healthcare is a private service to meet health threats to those who desire and can pay for the service. Healthcare service is personal and so those who are willing and able to pay for it do care if deadbeats not paying for their healthcare share in the service. Notice that those who cannot pay for healthcare because they are unemployed do indeed only get basic healthcare services provided as a charity and that is the way it is because there is not enough tax money in the entire country to change that without taking it from the armed forces and Social Security and education unless you tax or take more money from those who earned it, thereby forcing those who make money to leave the country with their wealth making it a country of deadbeats instead of a country of the exceptional.


That sentence should be in a textbook for students to parse and revise.

Grammar aside, it's bullshit. The entire point of expanding coverage is to broaden the base to pay for those needing health care. It was Gingrich's idea in the early 90s. It's the system Romney set up in Massachusetts.

It's how insurance works.

It's OK though. He goes to the gym a lot so at least he LOOKS like an alpha.

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RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without heal... - 6/26/2012 9:13:04 AM   
ClassIsInSession


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There is no simple solution to cure all the problems of the world, and if there were, who would foot the bill for it?

The one thing I do agree with in the Obamacare idea is allowing insurance to be sold across state lines. That's called a free market and I am fully in support of being able to make insurance companies compete on price.

I've personally lived without health insurance for 8 years now. During that time, at the very beginning, I had a Doctor misdiagnose a problem going on in my nose for 12 months. He sent me to a specialist who also missed the problem. As a result, I developed full blown MRSA staph in my face and nearly died. I had a visit to the ER, with a CT scan and IV clindamyacin that cost me $6,000. I paid in cash. (Cash I saved up over time for emergencies like I was going through)

Since then, I've used an organic diet, adequate sleep and exercise, taking a holistic approach and I've not had so much as a cold.

I think in many ways this 'crisis' is a good thing because if you're logical you come to the conclusion that prevention is often the best course of action.

While I do believe that western medicine is at times a necessary ingredient in health care, I believe that collectively we've grown far too reliant on 'experts' to do all the "oops I didn't take care of something and now I need a quick fix."

I'm often more concerned about being in a "health care environment" than living life at large, because the number of germs, bacteria and other pathogens in those areas are highly concentrated.

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RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without heal... - 6/26/2012 10:05:42 AM   
papassion


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You can live without health insurance but you cannot live without food and water. Why didn't the Libs go for giving everyone food and water? And It would be a more fair distrubution of government services. With the present system, only the less productive get the majority of benefits. Welfare, housing, etc., etc. Government supplied healthy foods would result in less health problems, thus less costs. Welfare payments would be reduced since food takes a big chuck of a welfare check. And if you think the government could run a national healthcare system, running a national food program, which is a LOT easier, would be a piece of cake!

Comeon' Libs, lets go for free food!


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RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without heal... - 6/26/2012 10:09:45 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

Why didn't the Libs go for giving everyone food and water?


Because people aren't struck with catastrophic hunger and thirst.

Except in emergencies, when we DO provide food, water, and housing.

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RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without heal... - 6/26/2012 10:10:47 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

Comeon' Libs, lets go for free food!



Perhaps you missed the Dole/Mondale school lunch program.

Or food stamps.



< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 6/26/2012 10:11:27 AM >

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RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without heal... - 6/26/2012 10:13:48 AM   
mnottertail


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Because we already do, teabaggers and neo-cons are to fuckin stupid to possess an autonomous system, so we have to have one for them. 

You may get it figured out that the government provides food to some segments of our society.  USDA, food stamps, commodity giveaways and so on.

And the replicans are funding the azelea collection at the national arboretum while taking milk money from babies, so every body gets their little favorite causes handled.   

_____________________________

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RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without heal... - 6/26/2012 10:22:49 AM   
erieangel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

Comeon' Libs, lets go for free food!



Perhaps you missed the Dole/Mondale school lunch program.

Or food stamps.





Both of which the GOP/TP have been trying to eradicate or at least tighten, in a time of great need.

The school lunch program has become a joke when pizza sauce and ketchup are considered vegetables.


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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without heal... - 6/26/2012 11:04:14 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
If the country is not citizens, it is not government of the people, by the people, and for the people, which is what the teabaggers and neo-cons have been pushing against for so long. 


So, you're saying that being in charge of something for the Nation is the same as being in charge of that same thing for each individual citizen?

I mean, I know you like to make stupid assertions and play with words, but when you talk about doing something for the Nation, as a whole, it is vastly different than doing something for each individual Citizen within that nation.

Federalist Paper #45 clearly defines this:

    quote:


    The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government, are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former [powers delegated to the Federal Government] will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce; with which last the power of taxation will, for the most part, be connected. The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State.


Can it be made any clearer? I mean, seriously?

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without heal... - 6/26/2012 11:21:53 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
Because we already do, teabaggers and neo-cons are to fuckin stupid to possess an autonomous system, so we have to have one for them. 
You may get it figured out that the government provides food to some segments of our society.  USDA, food stamps, commodity giveaways and so on.
And the replicans are funding the azelea collection at the national arboretum while taking milk money from babies, so every body gets their little favorite causes handled.   


And where does the money come from to bolster the frogs in Pelosi's District? Or the $4M+ bridge project in Florida so critters have safe passage across a busy road? Where does the money from from that goes to black holes like the 8 (I think it was 8) phantom districts in AZ that don't actually exist?

At what point in time is it no longer the Federal Government's right or power to provide something, or take care of something? At least the National Arboretum is a Federal program set up to research for the good of every American. Giving Jane Doe a stipend to feed her baby milk isn't going to do a damn bit of good for every American. My life will not be enriched if there is less roadkill along a section of highway in Florida. The frogs in Pelosi's district aren't likely to have any effect whatsoever on my life, and I highly doubt I'll ever be able to enjoy the fruits of the taxpayers' labors in the non-existent districts in Arizona that received Federal cash.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without heal... - 6/26/2012 11:24:08 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
You will have to link me up with a source for all that. Medicaid in some states is not open to anyone who doesnt have small children. Thankfully, I dont live in one of those states.

And what do they consider low cost?


Here's the cost chart for Healthy Indiana Plan
Indiana Medicaid programs



Thanks for the info.

quote:

The HIP plan covers individuals who do not live with a dependent child, and parents who earn up to approximately $44,000 annually for a family of four, have been uninsured for six months and do not have access to insurance through their employer. HIP may require you to pay a small monthly fee based on the amount of your income. HIP does not cover vision, dental or maternity services.


Thats similar to the one here in PA....

And, its what I thought. Even that program has a waiting list.

http://www.in.gov/fssa/hip/files/WaitListFAQs.pdf

and...

INDIANAPOLIS -- Some lawmakers are questioning why the state is still spending time and tax money accepting and processing applications for a health care program with a waiting list of 52,000 people.

All eight lawmakers on the Medicaid Oversight Committee on Monday expressed their support for legislation that addresses concerns about the Healthy Indiana Plan, or HIP, which is paid for with cigarette tax money, 6News' Kara Kenney reported.

In March, Gov. Mitch Daniels announced suspension of enrollments for childless adults in light of national health care reform.

But since then, some lawmakers claim the state has been running the program inefficiently and misleading taxpayers, including transferring $5 million intended for health insurance for needy families into the general fund to help balance the budget.

http://www.theindychannel.com/news/25508014/detail.html

and finally...

Beginning August 1, 2011, batches of letters will be sent over the next few months to 8,000 Hoosiers already on the childless adult Healthy Indiana Plan (HIP) waitlist; letters will go out to those who have been on the waitlist the longest. These individuals will be asked to reapply and their application reviewed to confirm eligibility. Once confirmed, the applicant will receive HIP membership. Anyone not returning a new application within 45 days, or anyone that no longer meets the eligibility requirements, will be taken off the waitlist and that slot will be added to the next batch of current waitlist mailings. If you are a childless adult who has previously applied for HIP and one of the 8,000, you will receive a letter in the mail sometime after August 1st. If you receive a letter, be sure to follow the instructions and return the completed application with supporting documents within 45 days.

http://www.in.gov/fssa/hip/2418.htm

I get what you are saying, rob.... but there are a large number of people in every state who are not covered. To be honest, the original amount of 26,000, to me, is too low.

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without heal... - 6/26/2012 11:35:45 AM   
mcbride


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

We don't have a military to protect the citizens. We have a military to protect the country. Would it be protecting our citizenry if Cuba were to take over Florida, if, in doing so, they didn't kill anyone, but forced everyone to move north? No citizens died, but would our military have any action?


Cuba, you say? Invading Florida? Has anyone alerted John Milius?

What is it, semantic dodge week? The simple analogy to the lack of a military, is pretty obvious, I think, and readers will decide that for themselves. The point, as you know, remains your fetching, almost balletic, attempt to dance away from the even more obvious: "At no point in time is the cause of death lack of insurance," you wrote. "It is not possible for someone to die because they lacked insurance."

I'll make it simpler: that's...mindboggling. Americans, including children, are dying for lack of access. If that's okay with you, on the grounds that "Universal Health Care is not the general welfare spoken of in the Constitution," hell, why not just say so?

quote:


The "death was preventable" means that something is killing these people. Lack of health care isn't what is killing these people. Lack of health care may allow the disease to end that life, but it is still the disease that is doing the killing...
... People on here will bring up the UN's Declaration of Human Rights. Well, that's just fine and dandy, so that means that if I have a human right to health care, my Mexican neighbor has a right to health care, and so does the Canadian on the other side. As a matter of fact, when a Russian comes over, he/she has a right to health care, too. How is it we're going to deny all those starving Africans health care, food, water, etc.? What's more important? Food, clean water or health care?


Do you really need the UN's Declaration of Human Rights to make you consider saving those Americans, including children, from preventable deaths?

And why bring Africans into it if you won't do anything to stop preventable deaths among American families? Is "food, clean water or health care" a zero-sum game for you?

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without heal... - 6/26/2012 12:07:41 PM   
subrob1967


Posts: 4591
Joined: 9/13/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
You will have to link me up with a source for all that. Medicaid in some states is not open to anyone who doesnt have small children. Thankfully, I dont live in one of those states.

And what do they consider low cost?


Here's the cost chart for Healthy Indiana Plan
Indiana Medicaid programs



Thanks for the info.

quote:

The HIP plan covers individuals who do not live with a dependent child, and parents who earn up to approximately $44,000 annually for a family of four, have been uninsured for six months and do not have access to insurance through their employer. HIP may require you to pay a small monthly fee based on the amount of your income. HIP does not cover vision, dental or maternity services.


Thats similar to the one here in PA....

And, its what I thought. Even that program has a waiting list.

http://www.in.gov/fssa/hip/files/WaitListFAQs.pdf

and...

INDIANAPOLIS -- Some lawmakers are questioning why the state is still spending time and tax money accepting and processing applications for a health care program with a waiting list of 52,000 people.

All eight lawmakers on the Medicaid Oversight Committee on Monday expressed their support for legislation that addresses concerns about the Healthy Indiana Plan, or HIP, which is paid for with cigarette tax money, 6News' Kara Kenney reported.

In March, Gov. Mitch Daniels announced suspension of enrollments for childless adults in light of national health care reform.

But since then, some lawmakers claim the state has been running the program inefficiently and misleading taxpayers, including transferring $5 million intended for health insurance for needy families into the general fund to help balance the budget.

http://www.theindychannel.com/news/25508014/detail.html

and finally...

Beginning August 1, 2011, batches of letters will be sent over the next few months to 8,000 Hoosiers already on the childless adult Healthy Indiana Plan (HIP) waitlist; letters will go out to those who have been on the waitlist the longest. These individuals will be asked to reapply and their application reviewed to confirm eligibility. Once confirmed, the applicant will receive HIP membership. Anyone not returning a new application within 45 days, or anyone that no longer meets the eligibility requirements, will be taken off the waitlist and that slot will be added to the next batch of current waitlist mailings. If you are a childless adult who has previously applied for HIP and one of the 8,000, you will receive a letter in the mail sometime after August 1st. If you receive a letter, be sure to follow the instructions and return the completed application with supporting documents within 45 days.

http://www.in.gov/fssa/hip/2418.htm

I get what you are saying, rob.... but there are a large number of people in every state who are not covered. To be honest, the original amount of 26,000, to me, is too low.


The federal government limits the state to 34,000 adults with no children, there are 52000 on the waiting list, and 17000 already approved.

So if you take 52000, and subtract the 34000 the program allows for, that leaves 18000 people waiting.

I don't see where you got your 26000 figure.

Again, the federal government limits the program to 34000 adults, not the state. Then there is the matter of funding the program, this like every government program in existence. It has a budget, and once the money runs out, they have to wait for the next fiscal year. So even if there wasn't a capacity cap in place, the state doesn't have the budget to provide for the 18000 people who will be on the list.

And to make it clear to everyone, tazzy and I are talking about adults without children, and not families, or children covered by the Healthy Indiana Plan.

If you're saying the federal government program doesn't cover enough people, we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think they should have any input on how a state runs it's health care for the citizens. We disagree on the powers invested in the federal government, especially those of a social nature, and we disagree that a federal single payer system is what this country needs.

Now if you want to discuss single payer plans per state, hey I'm all for it. I believe that each state should have the right to self determination. I have no problem with 50 individual state plans, my beef is with the centralized control of the program. The Fed doesn't have the right to run a nation wide health care plan... According to the constitution, or the federalist papers.

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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without heal... - 6/26/2012 4:02:37 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

The federal government limits the state to 34,000 adults with no children, there are 52000 on the waiting list, and 17000 already approved.


Because your math is off. 52000 - 17000 = 35000

You are assuming those on the program will be coming off any time soon, and that no one else is joining the waiting list.

The waiting list is 52000.... the 34000 are in the program... meaning 86000 people are eligible.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to subrob1967)
Profile   Post #: 60
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