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RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without heal... - 6/26/2012 5:15:25 PM   
subrob1967


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

The federal government limits the state to 34,000 adults with no children, there are 52000 on the waiting list, and 17000 already approved.


Because your math is off. 52000 - 17000 = 35000

You are assuming those on the program will be coming off any time soon, and that no one else is joining the waiting list.

The waiting list is 52000.... the 34000 are in the program... meaning 86000 people are eligible.


Your total of 35 is correct, I don't know where I screwed up, but your 86000 total isn't. One is not automatically eligible by applying.

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Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without heal... - 6/26/2012 6:02:35 PM   
tazzygirl


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One is if they are on a waiting list. They wont put you on it if you are not eligible. Therefor, 52000 are waiting. And 34000 are on the program.... = 86000.

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without heal... - 6/26/2012 6:44:10 PM   
LookieNoNookie


Posts: 12216
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without health insurance
A national health care consumer advocacy group estimates that three Americans die every hour as a result of not having health insurance.

According to "Dying for Coverage," the latest report by Families USA, 72 Americans die each day, 500 Americans die every week and approximately Americans 2,175 die each month, due to lack of health insurance.

"The Affordable Care Act was passed by Congress to address an American tragedy and an American shame," said Ron Pollack, Executive Director Families USA. "The fact remains that for the millions of Americans without health coverage, only the Affordable Care offers the promise of access to affordable coverage and to a longer and healthier life."

Families USA has been a staunch supporter of President Obama's health care reform law.

The report found that the reasons for being uninsured varied, but many of those without health insurance had coverage denied because of pre-existing conditions. Others have been priced out of the market on the heels of a failing economy - a time when keeping their homes and feeding their families took precedence over holding on to insurance in the face of rising premiums. And some lost their benefits when employers stopped providing coverage.

According to Families USA between 2005 and 2010, premature deaths rose from 20,350 to 26,100. The total number during that time was 134,120. Each state is affected, the organization said. Vermont had the fewest deaths with 28 while California had the most – 3,164, according to this report.

The method used to determine how many lives were lost was based on a model developed by the Institute of Medicine in 2002 for their report "Care without Coverage: Too Little, Too Late." In that report, the IOM found 18,000 adults between 25 and 64 died in 2000 because they didn't have health insurance.
More here
http://thechart.blogs.cnn.com/2012/06/20/families-usa-says-26000-die-prematurely-without-health-insurance/?hpt=hp_bn12


apropos for the expected HC decision coming today. Or maybe just to damn late for too many people

http://www.familiesusa.org/issues/uninsured/publications/dying-for-coverage.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_of_Medicine
links to the "original" groups mentioned


Honey, more people die every month from not walking as an exercise routine, more still die from smoking, more still die from pure stupidity.

Yes...we need some kind of national health directive but truly, when you take out 18 - 30 year olds (they live forever...you remember...I know I do), those that even if given a check for the full amount, would refuse to purchase health care, and others that I can't possibly calculate...what you're left with is about 7% of the population that's uninsured.

That's a lot....but it's a number we can deal with. Right now we're paying for well beyond that, and the numbers are growing fast and are at best....incalculable.

Now, granted, those that refuse are definitely clogging up the E.R.'s of the world....ours for sure....and a universal system would ameliorate much of that but....here's the deal....you can't solve every problem and there are more than several who have done the math (I haven't) and they say that "this plan" will cost us trillions...beyond what we already can't afford.

The numbers grow daily and they are beyond staggering.

I'm not smart enough to do the math so...I won't, but I will say this: I hope some day we can all afford to help others who are lacking.

Unfortunately, at this time, with proven debts exceeding not only our OWN GDP by a factor of 6 or 7, but as interestingly....the world's annual GDP...something tells me we need to work closer to home...solve a few problems that are much nearer to our, known problems.

100 years ago when you were sick, you went to family or the Catholic church. Today you ask for your govt. to solve whatever ills ail you.

That's a huge change from when we took care of our own (and we paid taxes accordingly) to today, when we expect someone else to take care of everyone....

Including our own.

My family matters to me and I work very hard to make sure that they're on the top of my list. I absolutely realize that most don't have the resources...but I think we need to (collectively) re-assess our thinking.

(Because....what we've BEEN thinking....ain't working).

< Message edited by LookieNoNookie -- 6/26/2012 6:45:07 PM >

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without heal... - 6/26/2012 7:37:27 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

Unfortunately, at this time, with proven debts exceeding not only our OWN GDP by a factor of 6 or 7, but as interestingly....the world's annual GDP...


YOU're off by a factor of 6 or 7 nationally, and negative 5 globally.

The National debt and GDP are both between $15 and $16 trillion. Global GDP is $60 trillion.

We've got a way to go before reaching your numbers!!!!

Unless you're talking about something else entirely, and it just isn't clear what.

(in reply to LookieNoNookie)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without heal... - 6/26/2012 7:42:48 PM   
Lucylastic


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Obviously sick people dont matter to some, even in a thriving economy, otherwise you would have had decent coverage for all decades ago.
the attempts at "spin" makes me wanna vomit.

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Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without heal... - 6/26/2012 7:42:57 PM   
subrob1967


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

One is if they are on a waiting list. They wont put you on it if you are not eligible. Therefor, 52000 are waiting. And 34000 are on the program.... = 86000.


Actually, even though your on the waiting list, Indiana doesn't actually look over or approve the application until there is an opening. They claim they don't have the man hours to waste... So you can apply, get on the list, but won't know you're approved until there is an opening.

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Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without heal... - 6/26/2012 8:08:02 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

Unfortunately, at this time, with proven debts exceeding not only our OWN GDP by a factor of 6 or 7, but as interestingly....the world's annual GDP...


YOU're off by a factor of 6 or 7 nationally, and negative 5 globally.

The National debt and GDP are both between $15 and $16 trillion. Global GDP is $60 trillion.

We've got a way to go before reaching your numbers!!!!

Unless you're talking about something else entirely, and it just isn't clear what.


6 or 7 against our GDP...ours currently at 15+....6x's equals 90 trillion...some say it's "only" 70 trillion. Lemme ask you something valid: When was the last time you heard a govt. stat that had any validity to it?

My guess is we owe closer to 100 trillion but....them "is just numbers".

The "debt" is not all we owe. We owe staggering sums for SSI, unfunded. Medicare which reaches new highs daily. Wars that we refuse to pay for other than through the next generation.

You honestly believe that all we owe is represented by the national debt?

Our debt is as if you put everything on the table....all that you'll be responsible for over your lifetime AND...everything you're known to owe today. Because....THAT'S WHAT YOU HAVE TO PAY TO BE IN THE GAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(It's real whether you agree or not).

(Email me on the other side...I have several clues left over...I'll send you one of my spares).

Anything (debt) above our annual GDP is staggering.

If I recall, the average wage is about 50K.

Let's say we're talking about even as little as 60 trillion owed.

4 times what we GENERATE annually.

That's the equivalent of 300K for the average worker who makes 50.

Add the house, car....you're looking at 500K.

10 times.

You might as well load your backpack with bricks and enter the local 10K.

Have a nice run.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without heal... - 6/26/2012 8:09:56 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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Joined: 8/9/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Obviously sick people dont matter to some, even in a thriving economy, otherwise you would have had decent coverage for all decades ago.
the attempts at "spin" makes me wanna vomit.


I give a shit too...we just don't have the money.

As much as we'd like to....the money ain't there.

We're in up to our eyeballs (and more). The jig is up folks and no matter how much we wish it weren't........

It just fucking is.

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without heal... - 6/26/2012 8:17:09 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

One is if they are on a waiting list. They wont put you on it if you are not eligible. Therefor, 52000 are waiting. And 34000 are on the program.... = 86000.


Actually, even though your on the waiting list, Indiana doesn't actually look over or approve the application until there is an opening. They claim they don't have the man hours to waste... So you can apply, get on the list, but won't know you're approved until there is an opening.



Seems they do....

Beginning August 1, 2011, batches of letters will be sent over the next few months to 8,000 Hoosiers already on the childless adult Healthy Indiana Plan (HIP) waitlist; letters will go out to those who have been on the waitlist the longest. These individuals will be asked to reapply and their application reviewed to confirm eligibility. Once confirmed, the applicant will receive HIP membership. Anyone not returning a new application within 45 days, or anyone that no longer meets the eligibility requirements, will be taken off the waitlist and that slot will be added to the next batch of current waitlist mailings. If you are a childless adult who has previously applied for HIP and one of the 8,000, you will receive a letter in the mail sometime after August 1st. If you receive a letter, be sure to follow the instructions and return the completed application with supporting documents within 45 days.

They arent putting someone who doesnt meet eligibility on that list.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to subrob1967)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without heal... - 6/26/2012 8:21:06 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Obviously sick people dont matter to some, even in a thriving economy, otherwise you would have had decent coverage for all decades ago.
the attempts at "spin" makes me wanna vomit.



I give a shit too...we just don't have the money.

As much as we'd like to....the money ain't there.

We're in up to our eyeballs (and more). The jig is up folks and no matter how much we wish it weren't........

It just fucking is.


Thats where you are wrong.

The money is there.

Its in the money spent to treat a stroke patient instead of treating hypertension.

Its in the money wasted in ER's to deal with an ear infection or an infected tooth.

Its in the money the insurance companies spent lobbying to prevent this law.

Its in the money the states and federal government give out each year to someone for permamnent disability that could have been prevented with medications.

The money is there.... you just have to give a damn to find it.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 6/26/2012 8:22:01 PM >


_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to LookieNoNookie)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without heal... - 6/26/2012 8:45:37 PM   
erieangel


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That's the rub, Tazzy, so many people are so used to how thing are, that they don't have any idea how to change even begin to change the rules to find the money to bring about a better system.

That's one of the reasons so many screamed bloody murder when they found out that the ACA would cut funding to Medicare Advantage. All people heard was that it would cut money to Medicare and they were instantly against it. It doesn't seem to matter to them that Medicare Advantage has been an abysmal failure from its inception.



(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without heal... - 6/26/2012 8:49:38 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Obviously sick people dont matter to some, even in a thriving economy, otherwise you would have had decent coverage for all decades ago.
the attempts at "spin" makes me wanna vomit.


I give a shit too...we just don't have the money.

As much as we'd like to....the money ain't there.

We're in up to our eyeballs (and more). The jig is up folks and no matter how much we wish it weren't........

It just fucking is.


Sorry honey, that is a really poor attempt to justify hundreds of thousands dying in pain and agony simply because they cant afford insurance.
You are entitled to your opinion, but I think its bullcrap and as Taz said so eloquently, said, its there.
After all, the US is the only "first" world nations NOT to have universal coverage. Yeah it makes me sick when friends and family are suffering, simply because they are poor, and nothing will change that, until something like single payer system is implemented such as other countries have.


_____________________________

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\(•_•)
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(in reply to LookieNoNookie)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without heal... - 6/26/2012 9:50:01 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

When was the last time you heard a govt. stat that had any validity to it?

My guess is we owe closer to 100 trillion


Yeah, if you're just going to make up numbers, anything you want is true.

Somehow I just don't trust that as much. I'm funny that way.

(in reply to LookieNoNookie)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without heal... - 6/26/2012 10:13:28 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
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From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

I give a shit too...we just don't have the money.


This is fallacious. In comparable countries that run national health schemes, the cost to the economy is typically half the amount that the US spends on health care (which, incidentally, produces a lot less health care too -for instance look at the infant mortality rates).

So by abandoning the antiquated system the US currently has, Americans could save up to 50c in the $ on healthcare overall, and produce better health outcomes for all US citizens.

It is such a no-brainer that the continuing debate over healthcare is regarded with astonishment by many of us who enjoy national health schemes.

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RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without heal... - 6/27/2012 8:01:22 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
quote:

I give a shit too...we just don't have the money.

This is fallacious. In comparable countries that run national health schemes, the cost to the economy is typically half the amount that the US spends on health care (which, incidentally, produces a lot less health care too -for instance look at the infant mortality rates).
So by abandoning the antiquated system the US currently has, Americans could save up to 50c in the $ on healthcare overall, and produce better health outcomes for all US citizens.
It is such a no-brainer that the continuing debate over healthcare is regarded with astonishment by many of us who enjoy national health schemes.


tweakabelle, there is no proof that the US would realize the cost reductions that others currently have over ours. We got into this a while ago, and just because that is the way it is in one part, doesn't mean that's the way it's going to be in these here parts. I'm not saying it wouldn't end up reducing our costs by 50%, but I can't see how you can make that claim.

If you could show me where a country started with ridiculously high care costs and realized great cost reductions after instituting national health care, I would have absolutely no argument with your claim.

I can't see it happening, though. Costs have already risen due to Obamacare. The whole aim of Obamacare is wrong. The whole aim is to make buying insurance more affordable, not to make care more affordable. With care costs rising, insurance costs are going to keep on rising, too. Eventually, the cost of insurance won't be affordable without even larger subsidies. It's simply a cost spiral that won't be contained. Those who have skin in the game won't be able to do anything about it. Those who don't won't let them. This won't solve a damn thing.

Insurance companies were originally against Obamacare, but I do believe that was a front. They aren't going to be hurt too bad by Obamacare as they'll just jack up the prices on their members. And, since you have to buy it, they have pretty much guaranteed customers. Without Obamacare, they would have continued their racket. Unfortunately, they are too rich and our politicians are too easily corrupted.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to tweakabelle)
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RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without heal... - 6/27/2012 9:29:57 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

I can't see it happening, though. Costs have already risen due to Obamacare.


How have costs risen? What costs?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without heal... - 6/27/2012 12:32:46 PM   
SadistDave


Posts: 801
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Sooooo someone who buys into this bullshit can produce death certificates listing "Lack of Insurance" as the cause of death?

Probably not.

Can we agree that lack of medical assistance may have been a factor for 26,000 people?

Maybe.

Oh wait... If you show up to a hospital in America and have a life threatening issue they have to take you by law whether you have insurance or not... So if we're back to insurance, then the issue would seem to be that people don't have insurance for a variety of reasons. And what about the fact that this advocacy groups figure of 26,000 people per year dying as a result of being uninsured is considerably less than the 920,000 people who choose not to have any kind of health insurance?

There seems to be a small problem with the numbers there because as of the figures available in 2009, that means that more people a year LIVE as a result of not having health insurance.

Is the system in need of repair? Certainly. Hype and fear-mongering are not going to help. Neither will Obamacare, which, as Forbes has already pointed out, will eventually make health care costs even more unaffordable and cause more people who are insured under it to suffer or die needlessly.

-SD-





< Message edited by SadistDave -- 6/27/2012 12:33:51 PM >

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without heal... - 6/27/2012 1:21:15 PM   
subrob1967


Posts: 4591
Joined: 9/13/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

One is if they are on a waiting list. They wont put you on it if you are not eligible. Therefor, 52000 are waiting. And 34000 are on the program.... = 86000.


Actually, even though your on the waiting list, Indiana doesn't actually look over or approve the application until there is an opening. They claim they don't have the man hours to waste... So you can apply, get on the list, but won't know you're approved until there is an opening.



Seems they do....

Beginning August 1, 2011, batches of letters will be sent over the next few months to 8,000 Hoosiers already on the childless adult Healthy Indiana Plan (HIP) waitlist; letters will go out to those who have been on the waitlist the longest. These individuals will be asked to reapply and their application reviewed to confirm eligibility. Once confirmed, the applicant will receive HIP membership. Anyone not returning a new application within 45 days, or anyone that no longer meets the eligibility requirements, will be taken off the waitlist and that slot will be added to the next batch of current waitlist mailings. If you are a childless adult who has previously applied for HIP and one of the 8,000, you will receive a letter in the mail sometime after August 1st. If you receive a letter, be sure to follow the instructions and return the completed application with supporting documents within 45 days.

They arent putting someone who doesnt meet eligibility on that list.



So that puts us back at the 52000 waiting and 34000 slots... Not at 86000. You're adding the waiting applicants with those who are, or should have been already approved.

There are 34000 slots, and 52000 people applying. Now if you take 17000 away from the 34000, that leaves us with 17000 slots available, because 17 of the 34 are already filled.

So if we fill the 17000 openings from 52000 applicants, that leaves us with 35000 people still on the waiting list for reduced cost medical insurance provided by the state.

Now those 35000 people have the choice to either buy into the insurance plan, which has no preexisting conditions, or government subsidy, or they wait without coverage for an opening in the 34000 slots.

Bottom line is there are 52000 Indiana residents asking for help, but the federal government has limited the assistance the state can provide to 34000. In the end, there will be 35000 Hoosiers that will have to rely on charity, like the program St Vincent's offers, to get the care they need.

How many of those 35 will actually need medical care,? No one can answer, maybe all of them, maybe none of them.

_____________________________

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(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without heal... - 6/27/2012 1:23:42 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
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How exactly, by what mechanism is the fed telling the state how many?  SCOTUS ruling legislating from the bench in voiding states rights or what?

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Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without heal... - 6/27/2012 2:00:34 PM   
subrob1967


Posts: 4591
Joined: 9/13/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

How exactly, by what mechanism is the fed telling the state how many?  SCOTUS ruling legislating from the bench in voiding states rights or what?



Ask Montana about states rights... While your at it, click the links Taz and I provided and find your answer for yourself.

_____________________________

http://www.extra-life.org/

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 80
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