RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without health insurance

RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without health insurance (Full Version)

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mnottertail -> RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without health insurance (6/27/2012 2:15:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subrob1967 quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail How exactly, by what mechanism is the fed telling the state how many? SCOTUS ruling legislating from the bench in voiding states rights or what? Ask Montana about states rights... While your at it, click the links Taz and I provided and find your answer for yourself. Fuck montana. Thats on neocons and teabaggers getting legislation from the bench. I did read those links, and you must not have, because there is nothing there that tells HOW and WHY or WHEN and WHAT just who. If you don't fuckin know (which I know you dont) say so, try not to parade your ignorance and shit all over just once.

subrob1967 -> RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without health insurance (6/27/2012 2:24:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail Fuck montana. Thats on neocons and teabaggers getting legislation from the bench. I did read those links, and you must not have, because there is nothing there that tells HOW and WHY or WHEN and WHAT just who. If you don't fuckin know (which I know you dont) say so, try not to parade your ignorance and shit all over just once. Let me Google that for your ignorant ass.

mnottertail -> RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without health insurance (6/27/2012 2:28:43 PM)
Yeah. Thats probably your first google of fact. I really didn't give a fuck. So I get it, it is the fed thats on the hook for the fuck ups.

tazzygirl -> RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without health insurance (6/27/2012 2:28:47 PM)
quote: So that puts us back at the 52000 waiting and 34000 slots... Not at 86000. You're adding the waiting applicants with those who are, or should have been already approved. No rob... there are 52000 people on the waiting list The 34000 slots are already full or there wouldnt be 52000 people on the waiting list.

subrob1967 -> RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without health insurance (6/27/2012 2:33:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: So that puts us back at the 52000 waiting and 34000 slots... Not at 86000. You're adding the waiting applicants with those who are, or should have been already approved. No rob... there are 52000 people on the waiting list The 34000 slots are already full or there wouldnt be 52000 people on the waiting list. 17000 slots are full, the other 17000 are on hold until a decision is made on the ACA. Once the decision is made, and if it's struck down, the other 17000 will be approved, leaving 35000

tazzygirl -> RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without health insurance (6/27/2012 2:42:57 PM)
So you are saying that there are 17,000 on the program... 17,000 waiting = 34,000. Even if we go with your numbers... 35000 people are still waiting and left without. And you think the 26000 figure is impossible when there are 35000 left without in your state alone?

RacerJim -> RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without health insurance (6/27/2012 3:10:07 PM)
Planned Parenthood: 300,000 +/- lives terminated prematurely with/without health insurance.

subrob1967 -> RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without health insurance (6/27/2012 3:18:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl So you are saying that there are 17,000 on the program... 17,000 waiting = 34,000. Even if we go with your numbers... 35000 people are still waiting and left without. And you think the 26000 figure is impossible when there are 35000 left without in your state alone? I already admitted the 26000 was wrong, and that 35000 were still in need. I guess you don't bother to read my posts before your knee jerk response. quote: ORIGINAL: subrob1967 Bottom line is there are 52000 Indiana residents asking for help, but the federal government has limited the assistance the state can provide to 34000. In the end, there will be 35000 Hoosiers that will have to rely on charity, like the program St Vincent's offers, to get the care they need. How many of those 35 will actually need medical care,? No one can answer, maybe all of them, maybe none of them.

mnottertail -> RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without health insurance (6/27/2012 3:22:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RacerJim Planned Parenthood: 300,000 +/- lives terminated prematurely with/without health insurance. And you are in that advocacy group,, they sure didnt catch you fast enough, you are wasting oxygen.

LookieNoNookie -> RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without health insurance (6/27/2012 5:51:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic quote: ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic Obviously sick people dont matter to some, even in a thriving economy, otherwise you would have had decent coverage for all decades ago. the attempts at "spin" makes me wanna vomit. I give a shit too...we just don't have the money. As much as we'd like to....the money ain't there. We're in up to our eyeballs (and more). The jig is up folks and no matter how much we wish it weren't........ It just fucking is. Sorry honey, that is a really poor attempt to justify hundreds of thousands dying in pain and agony simply because they cant afford insurance. You are entitled to your opinion, but I think its bullcrap and as Taz said so eloquently, said, its there. After all, the US is the only "first" world nations NOT to have universal coverage. Yeah it makes me sick when friends and family are suffering, simply because they are poor, and nothing will change that, until something like single payer system is implemented such as other countries have. I can't make a reasonable argument against any of that but in a real sense, whether there's money in that specific bucket or not, once you add up all the expenses we as a country have and the income we produce....we spend more than we take in and have for....well....since we began. I totally agree that we should have universal healthcare. I've been a supporter for decades and happily pay 100% of my entire staff's premiums, but honest to pete....if they took out every single bit of corruption/bad spending habits/poor planning in health care, every facet of our government....until we pay down the credit card....more importantly, start spending 95% or less than what we put in the bank....something has to give. Someone's not gonna get what they want. It's sad, but it's the only way out of this mess.

LookieNoNookie -> RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without health insurance (6/27/2012 5:55:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: When was the last time you heard a govt. stat that had any validity to it? My guess is we owe closer to 100 trillion Yeah, if you're just going to make up numbers, anything you want is true. Somehow I just don't trust that as much. I'm funny that way. Making up a number is when you say "we actually owe 100 trillion".....subjective comments (that are not statements of fact) are when you say something like "My guess is we owe closer to 100 trillion" I frankly wouldn't be at all surprised if it's even higher (and for your edification....that was another example of a "subjective" comment...not a factual one).

LookieNoNookie -> RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without health insurance (6/27/2012 5:56:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: I give a shit too...we just don't have the money. This is fallacious. In comparable countries that run national health schemes, the cost to the economy is typically half the amount that the US spends on health care (which, incidentally, produces a lot less health care too -for instance look at the infant mortality rates). So by abandoning the antiquated system the US currently has, Americans could save up to 50c in the $ on healthcare overall, and produce better health outcomes for all US citizens. It is such a no-brainer that the continuing debate over healthcare is regarded with astonishment by many of us who enjoy national health schemes. I hope that's true....it would certainly improve a lot of lives.

Owner59 -> RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without health insurance (6/27/2012 5:56:38 PM)
"I give a shit too...we just don't have the money." No prob drop`n a trill on Iraq tho..........[sm=m23.gif]

Owner59 -> RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without health insurance (6/27/2012 6:03:23 PM)
"No One Deserves To Die" http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/deserve-die-posters-ad-campaign-lung-cancer-201119572.html My apologies if this has already been posted. "A provocative advertising campaign that declares hipsters, cat lovers and crazy old aunts "deserve to die" is popping up in major American cities, including New York, Chicago, Seattle and New Orleans. The posters, placed on telephone booths and bus terminals, do not say what the campaign is for, but a quick online search leads to a website—NoOneDeservesToDie.org—that includes a countdown clock ticking down the minutes until midnight Thursday, when the "killer" is supposed to be revealed"

Lucylastic -> RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without health insurance (6/27/2012 6:23:29 PM)
Seeing as there are rumours of opening up the universal single payer if it fails, it will be interesting to see what happens after tomorrow

LookieNoNookie -> RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without health insurance (6/27/2012 6:25:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 "I give a shit too...we just don't have the money." No prob drop`n a trill on Iraq tho..........[sm=m23.gif] I'll never argue that our politicians aren't some of the most blunder headed trilobites ever to enter the genetic pool, nor will I ever argue that they make consistently and stupendously wise financial decisions but, your statement only proves my point: We didn't have that money either. Hence the increase in the national debt. As the old saying goes, two wrongs....etc.... If anyone truly wants this stuff to actually happen (being able to pay for, or rather, I should have said...afford...the things many here ascribe to), do these things (or something even better): 1) Quit voting back in the dweebs that refuse to insist on spending less than 95% of revenues....however it gets done, spend less than we take in. It's simple math. *You* do it....and if you don't you end up in court or with a bankruptcy attorney. If we all insist, instead of being sheep...it will get done....but, we have to as a group also insist that maybe that new bridge in our town doesn't really need to be built....that we can (quite easily) drive an extra 5 miles to the already existing, fully underutilized library....that 4 stop signs at a rural intersection will work just as well as a 1.7 million dollar series of lights, computers, etc. just because we can.....that whole "cut spending in their back yard....but not in mine" mentality has to stop. Something has to give....and everyone has to give something. 2) Run for Congress and get in there and change what you despise....quit talking about it and actually make a difference. 3) Create a website even, for anyone to respond to, add something to, such that people who actually know all the dirty shit that's going on can offer advice (regards hospitals/health care/the government/road building/wherever) and let everyone on the planet offer suggestions to cut waste so we CAN get out of debt so we're not borrowing tomorrow's income to pay for today's needs (which is indeed, exactly what we do). I'll even give you the URL: www.itsallfuckedupandIknowyouvegotasolutiontoo.com There's a ton of brilliant people out there, from genius types to the man on the street....everyone's got an opinion and with enough of them we could probably make a dent in all this. But we don't. We all sit here and bitch about why you shouldn't have what you want or they should be treated better than so and so, we all argue about why one poster is a dumb ass with no cranial capacity whatsoever, take offense at someone's comments where no offense was meant or given.....instead of.... Doing something about it. Whether anyone, or for that matter, everyone, believes (truly, in their heart, down to their toes...BURSTING out of their fingers and every hair follicle) that we can afford 'it" (whatever "it" is), there's simply no denying it...we can't afford "it", and that is an undeniable fact. The national debt which is now in EXCESS of what we produce annually proves the point with clarity that is without capability of being denied. Not our profit, which at best would be 5 - 7% of that, meaning it would take 15 - 20 years to pay off the national debt if EVERY corporation in America, and every private citizen took EVERY penny out of their pocket that wasn't allocated for a mortgage payment, car payment, food, new plants and equipment AND....during that ENTIRE twenty years, the federal government spent NO MORE than EXACTLY what they took in in revenue, and we all sent our excess to Washington DC for TWENTY years..... Folks, whether you agree or not, facts don't lie...I didn't make this shit up....everyone here knows these facts and it's been in the headlines since each of us were children....our national credit card is BEYOND maxed out and until it isn't....there simply isn't enough money for everything that everyone wants....and I would wholeheartedly agree that one of the things we SHOULD have is health care for everyone....but until it can be paid for, and the evidence (again) that we can't afford everything everyone wants is on our national credit card statement....we simply don't have enough money for everyone's desires. We don't have enough money to pay for everything everyone believes is essential. Change the things that are wrong or accept that some things in life are going to appear wrong to a majority of those who are (and some who are not) paying the bill for same. That's as simple as it gets. Really.

mcbride -> RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without health insurance (6/27/2012 6:28:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri tweakabelle, there is no proof that the US would realize the cost reductions that others currently have over ours. We got into this a while ago, and just because that is the way it is in one part, doesn't mean that's the way it's going to be in these here parts. I'm not saying it wouldn't end up reducing our costs by 50%, but I can't see how you can make that claim. Now there's a fun argument: Other countries do it, and their costs are dramatically lower than ours, and they get better measurable health outcomes, but we mustn't try it or work toward it because there's no proof our saving would match theirs. Luckily there's nothing at stake. Well...beyond tens of thousands of American men, women and children dying. Seems kinda wacky, Des.

LookieNoNookie -> RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without health insurance (6/27/2012 6:37:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mcbride quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri tweakabelle, there is no proof that the US would realize the cost reductions that others currently have over ours. We got into this a while ago, and just because that is the way it is in one part, doesn't mean that's the way it's going to be in these here parts. I'm not saying it wouldn't end up reducing our costs by 50%, but I can't see how you can make that claim. Now there's a fun argument: Other countries do it, and their costs are dramatically lower than ours, and they get better measurable health outcomes, but we mustn't try it or work toward it because there's no proof our saving would match theirs. Luckily there's nothing at stake. Well...beyond tens of thousands of American men, women and children dying. Seems kinda wacky, Des. Actually there's some, albeit lopsided, logic to that statement. The problem isn't that ours "couldn't work" or "wouldn't lower costs" it's that the legal system is designed to insure that it can't possibly work. In states where they've limited liability for doctors (I believe Texas is one, I may be wrong) to some rational number (I seem to recall a "cap" of $100,000.00 as opposed to the multiple unending millions), health care is more 'affordable"...still not cheap but better than in states where these caps don't exist. Most of the countries where the costs are significantly lower than our own, are also countries where these types of highly rational changes have been successfully implemented.

mcbride -> RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without health insurance (6/27/2012 6:41:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie there's simply no denying it...we can't afford "it". Folks, whether you agree or not, the facts don't lie....our national credit card is BEYOND maxed out and until it isn't....there simply isn't enough money for everything that everyone wants....and I would wholeheartedly agree that one of the things we SHOULD have is health care for everyone....but until it can be paid for, and the evidence (again) that we can't afford everything everyone wants is on our national credit card statement....we simply don't have enough money for everyone's desires. As Ronnie liked to say, there you go again. It would seem likely that a country whose "national credit card is BEYOND maxed out" would attempt to cut a huge source of horrendous spending by doing some version of what almost all of its neighbours have done, since those neighbours all spend far less and get better results. As simple as it gets.

Owner59 -> RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without health insurance (6/27/2012 6:47:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 "I give a shit too...we just don't have the money." No prob drop`n a trill on Iraq tho..........[sm=m23.gif] I'll never argue that our politicians aren't some of the most blunder headed trilobites ever to enter the genetic pool, nor will I ever argue that they make consistently and stupendously wise financial decisions but, your statement only proves my point: We didn't have that money either. Hence the increase in the national debt. As the old saying goes, two wrongs....etc.... If anyone truly wants this stuff to actually happen (being able to pay for, or rather, I should have said...afford...the things many here ascribe to), do these things (or something even better): 1) Quit voting back in the dweebs that refuse to insist on spending less than 95% of revenues....however it gets done, spend less than we take in. It's simple math. You do it....and if you don't you end up in court or with a bankruptcy attorney. If we all insist, instead of being sheep...it will get done....but, we have to as a group also insist that maybe that new bridge in our town doesn't really need to be built....that we can (quite easily) drive an extra 5 miles to the already existing, fully underutilized library....that 4 stop signs at a rural intersection will work just as well as a 1.7 million dollar series of lights, computers, etc. just because we can..... Something has to give....and everyone has to give something. 2) Run for Congress and get in there and change what you despise....quit talking about it and actually make a difference. 3) Create a website even, for anyone to respond to, add something to, such that people who actually know all the dirty shit that's going on can offer advice (regards hospitals/health care/the government/road building/wherever) and let everyone on the planet offer suggestions to cut waste so we CAN get out of debt so we're not borrowing tomorrow's income to pay for today's needs (which is indeed, exactly what we do). There's a ton of brilliant people out there, from genius types to the man on the street....everyone's got an opinion and with enough of them we could probably make a dent in all this. But we don't. We all sit here and bitch about why you shouldn't have what you want or they should be treated better than so and so, we all argue about why one poster is a dumb ass with no cranial capacity whatsoever, take offense at someone's comments where no offense was meant or given.....instead of.... Doing something about it. Whether anyone, or for that matter, everyone, believes (truly, in their heart, down to their toes...BURSTING out of their fingers and every hair follicle) that we can afford 'it" (whatever "it" is), there's simply no denying it...we can't afford "it". The national debt which is now in EXCESS of what we produce annually proves the point with clarity that is without capability of being denied. Not our profit, which at best would be 5 - 7% of that (meaning it would take 15 - 20 years to pay off the national debt if EVERY corporation in America, and every private citizen took EVERY penny out of their pocket that wasn't allocated for a mortgage payment, car payment, food, new plants and equipment AND....during that ENTIRE twenty years, the federal government spent NO MORE than EXACTLY what they took in in revenues). and sent it to Washington DC for TWENTY years..... Folks, whether you agree or not, the facts don't lie....our national credit card is BEYOND maxed out and until it isn't....there simply isn't enough money for everything that everyone wants....and I would wholeheartedly agree that one of the things we SHOULD have is health care for everyone....but until it can be paid for, and the evidence (again) that we can't afford everything everyone wants is on our national credit card statement....we simply don't have enough money for everyone's desires. We don't have enough money to pay for everything everyone believes is essential. Change the things that are wrong or accept that some things in life are going to appear wrong to a majority of those who are (and some who are not) paying the bill for same. That's as simple as it gets. Really. Pardon me if it`s already been said but proper health care SAVES money though prevention and catching disease early when it`s EASIER and CHEAPER to treat.... The law ALREADY SAYS we must care for sick folks.....people who come to the ER can`t be turned away, by law. It`s several times cheaper to treat the sick BEFORE they get to the ER.And the ER is no replacement for providing healthcare services.It`s meant for emergencies . The only reason cons are against universal health care .........is over some silly "principle".....that they think it`s socialism...... So they`ll pay through the nose to privateers for decades and get dropped as soon as they get sick,pay more and get less just so they can say we don`t have socialized medicine. Misery accomplished.

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