RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without health insurance (Full Version)

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tweakabelle -> RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without health insurance (7/1/2012 12:47:29 AM)

quote:

DesideriScuri
Is Australia the same in consumption? Is Australia similar in obesity levels? Was Australia the same as the US in who owns the hospitals and the insurance companies?

I'd be surprised if Australia is the same as the US in any of those 3 things. And, if those 3 things aren't the same, the administration and effect of a similar UHC won't be the same here as it was there.

I'm all for lowering the cost of care. But, it has to lower the cost of care for everybody. It can't just shift the cost of care to "the rich," or else there is no actual cost-savings.


If you wish to discover more about health care here, there are a number of academic texts available on Medicare, its history etc. Google is your friend. For a broad overview, check out wiki here

I'm not sure it's useful to get into minute detail over the similarities and differences between the US and Australia. At a macro level there are few countries more similar. Of course there will be variations but I doubt if the differences between here and the US would be greater than the differences between Florida and Alaska.

A news report here a few days ago had a 'typical American family' with an income of $48,000pa paying $13,000pa for healthcare. That would be more than the total tax deduction for all Govt. services for an equivalent family here. We pay 9.1% of GDP for 100% coverage healthcare, the US pays c16% and that leaves 50,000,000 Americans without coverage. The disparity is such that any over charging would seem to be in the US private system.

This is especially apparent in prescription drug costs. Here the Govt acts as "single buyer" for the entire population and negotiates favourable deals with the pharmaceutical companies so that no necessary prescription drugs are unaffordable. See here for details. So almost all prescriptions cost less than $10 to fill at the chemists (even less for those on benefits). Some version of this scheme like this would be easily transferable to US conditions and save US consumers billions. It completely changes the power dynamics between consumers and Big Pharma.

Markets work best when the name of the game is profit, when the outcome can be measured in dollars and cents. Healthcare is different - we can't accurately put a $ figure on a person's health. In healthcare the end object is health, not profit and the international experience is that public systems offer far better coverage with far better health outcomes for far fewer $ than private systems.



DesideriScuri -> RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without health insurance (7/1/2012 7:32:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
I'm not sure it's useful to get into minute detail over the similarities and differences between the US and Australia. At a macro level there are few countries more similar. Of course there will be variations but I doubt if the differences between here and the US would be greater than the differences between Florida and Alaska.


The 3 things I brought up, are not minute details. Part of the problem in the US, is that our lifestyle is such, that consumption is king. We consume to excess and beyond. And, yes, I do absolutely believe that is massively important.

quote:


A news report here a few days ago had a 'typical American family' with an income of $48,000pa paying $13,000pa for healthcare. That would be more than the total tax deduction for all Govt. services for an equivalent family here. We pay 9.1% of GDP for 100% coverage healthcare, the US pays c16% and that leaves 50,000,000 Americans without coverage. The disparity is such that any over charging would seem to be in the US private system.
This is especially apparent in prescription drug costs. Here the Govt acts as "single buyer" for the entire population and negotiates favourable deals with the pharmaceutical companies so that no necessary prescription drugs are unaffordable. See here for details. So almost all prescriptions cost less than $10 to fill at the chemists (even less for those on benefits). Some version of this scheme like this would be easily transferable to US conditions and save US consumers billions. It completely changes the power dynamics between consumers and Big Pharma.


And here is where you are missing the boat. Big Pharma and our elected officials will always be linked until we can sever the $$ ties between them. PPACA doesn't do that. If anything, PPACA strengthened that link.

quote:


Markets work best when the name of the game is profit, when the outcome can be measured in dollars and cents. Healthcare is different - we can't accurately put a $ figure on a person's health. In healthcare the end object is health, not profit and the international experience is that public systems offer far better coverage with far better health outcomes for far fewer $ than private systems.


One of the big problems that we have here is the curative nature of our medical system. If we had a more preventive system, we'd have a lower spend. That's been a big push within the higher education teaching towards emphasizing preventive care to lower costs. The American populace isn't "into" a preventive lifestyle. We are into a consumption lifestyle and putting off the responsible actions (and as much responsibility for the consequences as possible) for later and onto others. Enabling further responsibility shifting is what PPACA does.

And, may I also direct your attention to your Constitution requiring an amendment to give your Federal Government Constitutional authority to institute NHI? I have said well before I ever registered with CM that if an amendment to the Constitution giving the Federal Government uthority over health care was passed, I'd have no basis for my argument against UHC.

With the focus on consumption in the US, I still doubt UHC would have the same fiscal benefits that are realized elsewhere, and I still believe, beyond a shadow of doubt, that Government is the biggest inhibitor of solid Market solutions because of it's corruption to Big Pharma, Big Insurance, and Big Medicine.



atursvcMaam -> RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without health insurance (7/1/2012 7:44:30 AM)

Drinking and Driving kills many each year. Quit smoking or you are going to die. C'mon, folks die all the time. Does this report say how many people die maturely, or how many llive way past their correct life spans? That may be a crude thought, but it sounds as if everyone should have a predictable expiration date. Is it more polite to die early or to exceed your expected time on earth?



Lucylastic -> RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without health insurance (7/1/2012 9:20:06 AM)

everybody dies, no REALLY???? Fuck I never knew that.
Good god. Being unable to afford to go to the right place to get help with what is ailing you simply because you dont have the funds is what the problem is.
Please dont be utterly ridiculous.



Moonhead -> RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without health insurance (7/1/2012 9:23:50 AM)

I wonder if everybody who's complaining about that problem now finds the fact that the medical insurance companies bitchesRepublicans fillibustered the single payer provision out of the act a little embarrassing?
Or do they feel that was still the correct way to go?



Lucylastic -> RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without health insurance (7/1/2012 9:26:15 AM)

theres no doubt that its unpopular and will be used to its full exctent until november, but it paves the way for either of them to say they will implement the simple payer as an answer.If they dont, they are stupid...both sides



Moonhead -> RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without health insurance (7/1/2012 9:28:26 AM)

I honestly can't see what the fuck the point of the thing is without that clause included. As it stands, it might be a groundwork so that can be introduced later, but as is, it's doing sod all.
(Which makes all that "OMG! The sky is falling! AAAAARGH!" hysteria from our rightist massive even funnier than normal, I admit...)



Lucylastic -> RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without health insurance (7/1/2012 9:32:03 AM)

you KNOW i aint gonna disagree with you there, hehhe




atursvcMaam -> RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without health insurance (7/1/2012 10:15:11 AM)

Maybe just a bit ridiculous, but not utterly, Who will decide what is a premature death, and who will decide who are the "bitter clingers" (thoroughly out of context and unrelated quote) to life in this world.



Lucylastic -> RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without health insurance (7/1/2012 10:19:31 AM)

medicine has been redefining it for centuries.



tazzygirl -> RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without health insurance (7/1/2012 10:38:58 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: atursvcMaam

Maybe just a bit ridiculous, but not utterly, Who will decide what is a premature death, and who will decide who are the "bitter clingers" (thoroughly out of context and unrelated quote) to life in this world.


Once upon a time, a preemie would never have survived. Shall we roll back the clock?

Once upon a time, someone needing a new heart valve would have died.

Once upon a time, cancer was a death sentence, regardless of where it was located.

Tell me... who has the right to decide?



atursvcMaam -> RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without health insurance (7/1/2012 10:41:53 AM)

True, but when politicians seem to get into this mix the question changes from "can i fix this problem" to "what's in it for me?"



Lucylastic -> RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without health insurance (7/1/2012 11:07:49 AM)

Just like the insurance companies
snorts



DesideriScuri -> RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without health insurance (7/1/2012 5:01:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: atursvcMaam
Drinking and Driving kills many each year. Quit smoking or you are going to die.


That will be addressed at a later time, I'm sure. Simply for not other reason than for "cost containment."

quote:


C'mon, folks die all the time. Does this report say how many people die maturely, or how many llive way past their correct life spans? That may be a crude thought, but it sounds as if everyone should have a predictable expiration date. Is it more polite to die early or to exceed your expected time on earth?


There is no "predictable expiration date." There is no "correct" life span. There is a lifespan. It can be manipulated by the choices you make. Sometimes Life manipulates your lifespan regardless of the choices you make. There is no "minimum" amount of time someone is "guaranteed" to live to. To think otherwise is foolish.



tweakabelle -> RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without health insurance (7/2/2012 4:42:11 AM)

quote:

DesideriScuri
And here is where you are missing the boat. Big Pharma and our elected officials will always be linked until we can sever the $$ ties between them.

Some one is missing the boat all right. But it's not me, I'm the one paying $10 per script. I'm not the one prevented from accessing affordable drugs because of collusion between "Big Pharma and [US] elected officials" or prevented from obtaining best quality healthcare because I can't afford it.

Don't you find it odd that you are calling for Big Pharma to have even more control over US citizens lives and healthcare by insisting on exclusively market-based solutions, solutions that will favour Big Pharma, always have and always will, while asserting that the same Big Pharma's corrupt relationship with your elected officials is at the heart of the problem? Particularly when overseas experience is that the solution is to use democratic powers to tame the power of Big Pharma through creating universal health systems and appropriate regulation.

The fastest easiest and best way for US citizens to enjoy the benefits of a universal health scheme is to exercise your democratic rights and elect a Congress and a President committed to a universal health scheme and get one enacted.



SilverMark -> RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without health insurance (7/2/2012 9:12:39 AM)

When do they start the death panels, I think Sarah Palin has a cold!



tazzygirl -> RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without health insurance (7/2/2012 9:20:01 AM)

hahahaha... nice to see you posting again!



SilverMark -> RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without health insurance (7/2/2012 9:25:27 AM)

I come through once in awhile!...I just knew there would be some fun to be had on the Affordable Health Care Act.



tazzygirl -> RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without health insurance (7/2/2012 10:36:12 AM)

But of course.. I am having fun pointint out how little others understand what they are complaining about [:D]



DesideriScuri -> RE: Advocacy group: 26,000 die prematurely without health insurance (7/2/2012 11:46:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
quote:

DesideriScuri
And here is where you are missing the boat. Big Pharma and our elected officials will always be linked until we can sever the $$ ties between them.

Some one is missing the boat all right. But it's not me, I'm the one paying $10 per script. I'm not the one prevented from accessing affordable drugs because of collusion between "Big Pharma and [US] elected officials" or prevented from obtaining best quality healthcare because I can't afford it.
Don't you find it odd that you are calling for Big Pharma to have even more control over US citizens lives and healthcare by insisting on exclusively market-based solutions, solutions that will favour Big Pharma, always have and always will, while asserting that the same Big Pharma's corrupt relationship with your elected officials is at the heart of the problem? Particularly when overseas experience is that the solution is to use democratic powers to tame the power of Big Pharma through creating universal health systems and appropriate regulation.
The fastest easiest and best way for US citizens to enjoy the benefits of a universal health scheme is to exercise your democratic rights and elect a Congress and a President committed to a universal health scheme and get one enacted.


This scheme will not, I repeat, will not, lower the cost of care. It lowers the cost of insurance, for some. Yet, up to 38% of the "uninsured" make over $50k/yr. and have chosen not to buy health insurance. If we have 45.7M people uninsured, that means 5.7% of Americans are not purchasing insurance even though they make over $50k/year. Makes you wonder who the 1-2% of "free riders" are, if 5.7% of the population doesn't have insurance and makes over $50k/year. Obama's top end estimate for the tax penalty is $700. Where can you buy insurance for $700/yr.? What happens when one of those people walks into an ER?

I pay $69/month total for 2 Rx's that I paid $25 in co-pay's for when I had insurance. My costs have risen $44/month. But, nothing else was paid for those Rx's. $170 was paid for those Rx's when I had insurance, but only $25 out of my pocket. My therapist charges $150, but the insurance reduced it to $90, including a $15 co-pay. I now pay $65 ($50 more), but it's still $25 less than when I had insurance. I have yet to go to a physician for a checkup or anything, so I can't tell you what that cost is ($15 co-pay was all it was before). To add it all up, I pay $134 for 2 medications and a monthly therapy session. That is a grand total of $94 more out of my pocket, and $126 less than when I had insurance.

How is it that forcing more people onto insurance plans is going to reduce costs? I've been without a plan, and the health care expenditure for me has dropped almost in half.

Plus, Obama calls this a "penalty" for free riders. If I pay for all my medications and appointments by myself, how is it going to be okay for me to be penalized for being a "free rider" when 1. it wasn't free, and 2. all my care costs were borne by me and only me?




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