RE: NC Ignores Science, Tries To Make Sea Level Rise Illegal

RE: NC Ignores Science, Tries To Make Sea Level Rise Illegal (Full Version)

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Hillwilliam -> RE: NC Ignores Science, Tries To Make Sea Level Rise Illegal (6/27/2012 11:59:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SadistDave Presumably on planet Dumbass, water levels go up and down based on whether there is a hill or valley on the coast. On planet Reality, low lying areas make inlets and bays which are surrounded by higher ground. -SD- Would you believe that mountains and polar ice caps do create gravitational anomalies because of their mass that have small effects on local sea level. The blind squirrel found an acorn.[:D]

SadistDave -> RE: NC Ignores Science, Tries To Make Sea Level Rise Illegal (6/27/2012 12:00:13 PM)
And mysteriously you still have no real citation to argue the fact that the global factors may make temporary changes in the level of the ocean (You know... tides) but that the water is always trying to level itself out. More and more you sound like someone who bought a degree from a coin operated machine. -SD-

mnottertail -> RE: NC Ignores Science, Tries To Make Sea Level Rise Illegal (6/27/2012 12:06:23 PM)
My ideas are not challenged by actual tidal science, they actually agree with my statements tide tables and times are pretty well established and not the same at all same latitudes or longitudes, the coriolis effect is the bulge from the rotation of the earth and is further exacerbated at times by the gravity of the moon. these however are independent forces of physics. Those are not ignoring science, and nothing to do with sea rising overall. The objections to your misinformation I have are the notion that the coriolis effect affects all lattitudes simultaneously (it does not) and the oceans are self leveling (they are not).

Hillwilliam -> RE: NC Ignores Science, Tries To Make Sea Level Rise Illegal (6/27/2012 12:09:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SadistDave And mysteriously you still have no real citation to argue the fact that the global factors may make temporary changes in the level of the ocean (You know... tides) but that the water is always trying to level itself out. More and more you sound like someone who bought a degree from a coin operated machine. -SD- So, now you've gone from the ocean finds its level to it's always trying. Tides are a local phenomonon which has absolutely nothing to do with sea level. Sea level calculations are based on the average between mean high water and mean low water. If tides had anything to do with sea level measurements, then it would be impossible to give a set value for altitude. You sound more and more like someone who learned from a person who had no idea what they were talking about.

Hillwilliam -> RE: NC Ignores Science, Tries To Make Sea Level Rise Illegal (6/27/2012 12:22:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SadistDave quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam Here's the difference in sea levels between the Atlantic and Pacific sides of the Panama Canal. http://geography.about.com/library/faq/blqzpanamaocean.htm Add to that the difference in tidal range (6 meters on the Pacific side vs 0.3 meters on the Atlantic) and if you could put a sea level canal thru (t's been considered), you'd have an average 5-6 knot current running west to east. About.com... really? That's the citation you want to use? -SD- Want something stronger? http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/1974/JC079i006p00825.shtml http://www.eos.ubc.ca/~mjelline/453website/eosc453/E_prints/2003RG000139.pdf (page 5 has a nice graphic showing the differential rise) http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/2008/2007JC004517.shtml http://www.tectonic-forces.org/pt12.htm http://www.csmonitor.com/Environment/2012/0625/Rising-sea-levels-Is-global-warming-making-the-US-East-Coast-a-hot-spot-video CSM isnt exactly liberal and here's a quote. "Dr. Sallenger and two USGS colleagues decided to take their own look. They used tide-gauge measurements from around the US coastlines spanning a 60-year period beginning in 1950. They found that from 1950 through 2009, as global average sea levels rose at a pace of 0.59 millimeters a year, they rose 1.97 mm per year in the East Coast “hot spot.” Between 1970 and 2009, the pace picked up, with global average sea levels rising 0.98 mm per year and the hot spot's pace increasing to 3.8 mm per year." 1. Sea level is different at different places on the world's surface 2. Tides have nothing to do with sea level measurements.

DomKen -> RE: NC Ignores Science, Tries To Make Sea Level Rise Illegal (6/27/2012 12:41:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SadistDave In regards to the article posted by Mupainurpleasure: - It is possible to sail around the world. That means that all oceans are interconnected on the surface. - Water, which is what the ocean is made out of, is self-leveling. Therefore, if you add water on one side of an ocean, it doesn't make that side of the ocean higher or deeper. My question is simply this: How is it possible that an ocean level rising only effects one side of an ocean, or effect one part of the worlds coastlines more than the rest since water levels itself out? I think anyone with an ounce of sense would ask these questions when reading a story about how one particular bit of coastline is effected more than any other in the world. Because of the nature of water, it is more likely that there is some other factor besides climate change to be considered here. Erosion could be a factor, the currents could be weakening the land underneath this section of coastline making the land slowly sink into the ocean. However, one thing I will need a lot of convincing of is that for some reason water acts differently on the Eastern coast of North America than it does in Europe, and... by virtue of the fact that all oceans are interconnected... the rest of the world. Perhaps one of you climate change nutters can explain that to me. -SD- Why are their locks on the Panama Canal? Because the Pacific and Atlantic have different levels. Why does the tide at Calais France vary by 5 meters or more when it doesn't elsewhere? Because of local topography. Why do people who don't knw spit about the real world make grandiose claims about it? That one I've got no idea.

mnottertail -> RE: NC Ignores Science, Tries To Make Sea Level Rise Illegal (6/27/2012 1:08:18 PM)
Perhaps they do so from some misguided lunar effect. But to instruct others on shit they know nothing about, I am sure that is land based.

SadistDave -> RE: NC Ignores Science, Tries To Make Sea Level Rise Illegal (6/27/2012 1:24:42 PM)
Yes actually, those are much better than About.com. I hope you took the time to thank whoever found them for you. -SD-

Hillwilliam -> RE: NC Ignores Science, Tries To Make Sea Level Rise Illegal (6/27/2012 1:26:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SadistDave quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam ROFLMAO! You're absolutely right about one thing! I guess I didn't ask what one has to do with the other. Meant to, but didn't. LOL. Unfortunately though, your explanation is still incorrect. In order for your explanation to hold water, the Coriolis Effect would have to work only in certain areas of a given body of water, and not in others. The same planetart influences that drive the Coriolis effect in New York, are going to similar at every point on that basic latitude, but they will be most similar within the same body of water. So for your explanation to be valid, the Coriolis Effect would not work on the European or North African Atlantic coastlines. That is obviously not true. The Coriolis Effect is the same on European Coasts, and instead of heat from the tropics, they have heat coming up through the currents from the equatorial waters of Africa, and a whole lot of ocean. The same is true for your argument about Centripetal Force. That force is not going to be stronger on a single coastline because it is a global phenomenon. Then there is your prevailing winds argument. How fast does the wind have to blow to move surface water and hold it in place? Hurricanes cannot even exert that sort of wind power, so the prevailing winds causing the water to be deeper on one side of an ocean is obviously untrue as well. -SD- Looks like someone googled "coriolis" and came close to understanding it. Actually, regarding the effects on US and European coastlines you are incorrect. The N Atlantic Gyre has currents that move North along the US coast and south along the european coast. Due to the fact that Delta theta is positive along the US side and negative along the European side, Coriolis is opposite on the 2 coasts. The deflection is Eastward on our side of the pond and Westward on the other side. Regarding the prevailing winds and their effect on sea level, you might wish to rethink. Google the word "Seiche". This is a temporary level change on bodies of open water that can be a half meter or more and is caused by steady winds as low as 10-15 MPH. Trade winds average about that and blow more or less constantly. This will cause a difference in mean sea levels between one side of a major tropical oceanic basin compared to the other.

Hillwilliam -> RE: NC Ignores Science, Tries To Make Sea Level Rise Illegal (6/27/2012 1:31:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Why are their locks on the Panama Canal? Because the Pacific and Atlantic have different levels. You're partially correct ken. The Panama canal isnt a sea level canal. I think I remember that Lake Gatun is at about 70' above mean sea level but I'd have to check my references. You are correct, however in that the Pacific is higher than the Atlantic right there by about a foot. the tidal range is pretty wild too. It's about a quarter meter on the Atlantic side and 6 meters on the pacific. A sea level canal with no locks would have a hell of a current running thru it. (5-6 knots avg would be my guess)

subrob1967 -> RE: NC Ignores Science, Tries To Make Sea Level Rise Illegal (6/27/2012 1:47:45 PM)
I have one question... Which models are the scientists using, the old models that have peen proven false? Or the revised models based on Bell's research? quote: The implications of the research are clear. Bell and colleagues summed the situation up this way: “Widespread freeze-on can change the rheology and modify the flow of the Antarctic and Greenland ice sheets. Inclusion of these basal processes is essential to produce robust predictions of future ice sheet change.” Tulaczyk and Hossainzadeh are even more to the point: The discovery of thick, widespread accreted ice layers changes in fundamental ways our understanding of the Antarctic ice sheet. Further mapping and modeling of these ice bodies is necessary to aid the ongoing search for the oldest ice on Earth. New models of subglacial water generation, flow, and freezing will have to be developed to account for this large internal mass and heat redistribution within the ice sheet These scientists are saying that the new findings fundamentally change our understanding of ice sheets and their inclusion in new models is essential. Basically, this means all of the model predictions of how fast ice is melting and moving to the sea, in both Antarctica and Greenland, need to be revised. It turns out that all those model based predictions of an icy Armageddon, with glacial ice racing to the ocean at ever increasing rates, were not based on reality. This discovery shows the danger of basing estimates of future conditions on model output, be it ice flow or climate change. As fodder for research models are fine, but as a foundation to base public policy on they are horrid. The public, media and politicians need to understand that models are not fact, they are at best imperfect representations of a poorly understood reality. Be safe, enjoy the interglacial and stay skeptical. I think I'll heed their advice and stay skeptical.

Hillwilliam -> RE: NC Ignores Science, Tries To Make Sea Level Rise Illegal (6/27/2012 1:57:38 PM)
Good idea rob. Skepticism is a good thing. The problem is that we need to be skeptical of both sides. Coastal areas that ignore current data and refuse to prepare for rising levels because some politician or radio host whose idea of hardcore science is Bill Nye is stupid, short sighted and it will cost the rest of us taxpayers Billions when they get flooded and come whining for a bailout because they were too cheap to put a few extra million into seawalls. I'd say they're the socialists. Think about it. They want that seaside lifestyle but they want the rest of us to pay for it. Isn't that what hardcore liberalism is all about?

Okeanos -> RE: NC Ignores Science, Tries To Make Sea Level Rise Illegal (6/27/2012 2:04:12 PM)
Xerxes had a brilliant idea 2500 years ago. If the sea does not behave according to your wishes, have it lashed. [image]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f4/Xerxes_lash_sea.JPG/388px-Xerxes_lash_sea.JPG[/image]

Hillwilliam -> RE: NC Ignores Science, Tries To Make Sea Level Rise Illegal (6/27/2012 2:47:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Okeanos Xerxes had a brilliant idea 2500 years ago. If the sea does not behave according to your wishes, have it lashed. [image]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f4/Xerxes_lash_sea.JPG/388px-Xerxes_lash_sea.JPG[/image] GOOD ONE [8D] . It looks like the NC legislature is trying that same trick that didn't work 2500 years ago. (One of the main reasons they lost to the Greeks was a nasty storm that sunk and scattered most of his fleet enabling a numerically inferior Greek fleet to kick their ass.)

subrob1967 -> RE: NC Ignores Science, Tries To Make Sea Level Rise Illegal (6/27/2012 3:04:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam quote: ORIGINAL: Okeanos Xerxes had a brilliant idea 2500 years ago. If the sea does not behave according to your wishes, have it lashed. [image]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f4/Xerxes_lash_sea.JPG/388px-Xerxes_lash_sea.JPG[/image] GOOD ONE [8D] . It looks like the NC legislature is trying that same trick that didn't work 2500 years ago. (One of the main reasons they lost to the Greeks was a nasty storm that sunk and scattered most of his fleet enabling a numerically inferior Greek fleet to kick their ass.) Maybe they have Moses on their side... Ever think of that?[:-]

mnottertail -> RE: NC Ignores Science, Tries To Make Sea Level Rise Illegal (6/27/2012 3:27:16 PM)
That would present other insurmountable physics problems as well as ignorance of fact and unable to differentiate between fantasy and reality as well as causality.

Okeanos -> RE: NC Ignores Science, Tries To Make Sea Level Rise Illegal (6/27/2012 3:59:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail That would present other insurmountable physics problems as well as ignorance of fact and unable to differentiate between fantasy and reality as well as causality. I thought that this is exactly what this post is about, with the folks at North Carolina’s General Assembly.

LookieNoNookie -> RE: NC Ignores Science, Tries To Make Sea Level Rise Illegal (6/27/2012 5:36:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Karmastic hmm, good one anyway. if/when they DO get flooded, who ya think is gonna have to pay for it all? US! They'll come up with new legislation that says something like "All insurance claim refunds for actual flooding will be confiscated by the state and placed in the state treasury until and at such time as someone can find resources other than facts to explain why said claim was made in the first place".

tweakabelle -> RE: NC Ignores Science, Tries To Make Sea Level Rise Illegal (6/28/2012 12:48:00 AM)
Please tell me this is a hoax. It has all the wisdom, nay genius, of legislating to make attempting suicide a crime punishable by death

Hillwilliam -> RE: NC Ignores Science, Tries To Make Sea Level Rise Illegal (6/28/2012 5:51:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SadistDave Yes actually, those are much better than About.com. I hope you took the time to thank whoever found them for you. -SD- I found them myself little one and unlike you, I can actually read, digest and comprehend the data in them.

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