RE: Poll: Obama would handle invading aliens better than Mitt Romney (Full Version)

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jlf1961 -> RE: Poll: Obama would handle invading aliens better than Mitt Romney (7/2/2012 7:51:37 AM)

Muse, for us, at our present state of technology, practicality is a problem.

We are close, a few decades away from harnessing fusion power. CERN has made minute amounts of anti matter, and at present it is expensive to make.

At present, the fusion reactor in the UK has reached the milestone of generating 80% output compared to the energy it has taken to initiate the reaction. The reactor has been in research operation since 1983. That is 29 years of research. The research is still a long way from a self sustaining reaction that outputs more energy than it takes to start the reaction.

I stand corrected on the idea of anti matter as a energy source. According to CERN, you never get as much energy out of antimatter as it takes to create it. The only way around that problem is to find a source of anti matter that does not need to be generated. Or find a way to generate antimatter that is not limited by E=MC^2.

Soviet Astrophysicist, Nikolai Kardashev tried to rank civilization on the basis of how much energy we extract from the stars.

At present, humans are a Type 0 civilization, we use plants (or decayed plant matter in the form of oil, coal, and natural gas) to generate power.

We are easily a hundred years from being a type I civilization that uses nuclear fusion and solar to generate energy and all the energy that lands on the surface of the planet.

A type II civilization would be able to utilize 100% of the energy produced by its parent star to generate energy. If humans were to construct a Dyson's Sphere around the sun, we would be a type II civilization, or if we found a way to use the power of a star to generate our energy and power our machines. Basically, the civilization depicted in Star Trek is a type II civilization.

A type III civilization uses the power of all the stars in a galaxy to power its machines. According to physicist Michio Kaku, the Empire in Star Wars is a type III civilization.

Finally there is a type IV civilization, they are using Dark energy to power their machines.

Now this is all based on what we know about physics now. And Kardashev developed this scale in 1964.

Of course, there is the possibility that by some stroke of genius we may jump a stage.

However, the point we are making concerning an alien invasion is that fact that they would be thousands or millions of years ahead of us.

And if they are anything LIKE us, they are going to do to primitive civilizations what we did to primitive civilizations, and that is destroy them. And they will have the power and energy to do that.




Musicmystery -> RE: Poll: Obama would handle invading aliens better than Mitt Romney (7/2/2012 7:53:33 AM)

quote:

However, the point we are making concerning an alien invasion is that fact that they would be thousands or millions of years ahead of us.

And if they are anything LIKE us, they are going to do to primitive civilizations what we did to primitive civilizations, and that is destroy them.


That's a leap. If they're thousands of millions of years ahead of us, they might well know better than to destroy other civilizations.

You're projecting.

The rest of this, your scientific progress chart, is mere speculation, based on our own primitive understanding. Practicality isn't a minor concern--it's entirely the point. Take hydrogen fuel cells, for example--great idea, and we can build them, but they aren't practical. We need a different approach.

Far more likely is that such an advanced civilization has a far more advanced understanding, including concepts completely unknown to us. Hell, we don't even know what gravity is yet.




mnottertail -> RE: Poll: Obama would handle invading aliens better than Mitt Romney (7/2/2012 7:59:49 AM)

That's a leap. If they're thousands of millions of years ahead of us, they might well know better than to destroy other civilizations.




If they are thousands of millions of years ahead of us, they are dead, their sun a black hole eons ago,  the physics wont support any other outcome, we who are alive today are pretty much on like planets on like galaxies too far away from each other to ever meet.




Moonhead -> RE: Poll: Obama would handle invading aliens better than Mitt Romney (7/2/2012 8:23:27 AM)

The physics will support a few other outcomes: not all suns turn into black holes.
There's supernovas and neutron stars as well, for a start.
[;)]




jlf1961 -> RE: Poll: Obama would handle invading aliens better than Mitt Romney (7/2/2012 8:29:29 AM)

Actually, our sun has another 4.7 billion years of life left before it goes into the red giant phase, it will never go super nova and turn into a black hole. Only massive stars do that, per the laws of physics.

Muse, you are right, the civilization tech scale is based on what we know. And on further reading, it is not harnessing the power of the star or galaxy etc. but having control of that amount of energy.


Otter, if a civilization has advanced to the point of interstellar travel, they have probably colonized other planets that can support life., so their civilization would endure.

At that point, either they have evolved to the point of not exterminating more primitive societies, or they have advanced to the point where they can destroy a civilization without doing a lot of damage to the planet they want to colonize.

I will point out that humans are not above destroying primitive life forms. we kill bugs as pests, or just by stepping on them, we kill animals for food and sport, and we have a nasty habit of using brute force to make a point with other countries. I dont see that changing at any time in the near future.




mnottertail -> RE: Poll: Obama would handle invading aliens better than Mitt Romney (7/2/2012 8:33:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

The physics will support a few other outcomes: not all suns turn into black holes.
There's supernovas and neutron stars as well, for a start.
[;)]


Ours is actually slated for red dwarf.   I was using poetic license.





Moonhead -> RE: Poll: Obama would handle invading aliens better than Mitt Romney (7/2/2012 8:36:27 AM)

Fair enough.




DomKen -> RE: Poll: Obama would handle invading aliens better than Mitt Romney (7/2/2012 10:13:34 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
We are close, a few decades away from harnessing fusion power. CERN has made minute amounts of anti matter, and at present it is expensive to make.

At present, the fusion reactor in the UK has reached the milestone of generating 80% output compared to the energy it has taken to initiate the reaction. The reactor has been in research operation since 1983. That is 29 years of research. The research is still a long way from a self sustaining reaction that outputs more energy than it takes to start the reaction.

I stand corrected on the idea of anti matter as a energy source. According to CERN, you never get as much energy out of antimatter as it takes to create it. The only way around that problem is to find a source of anti matter that does not need to be generated. Or find a way to generate antimatter that is not limited by E=MC^2.

The second law of thermodynamics governs all of this. Fusion and antimatter can never produce more power than is put in (neither can any other reaction).





mnottertail -> RE: Poll: Obama would handle invading aliens better than Mitt Romney (7/2/2012 10:17:28 AM)

Let's not start reading Feynman diagrams here, it's just too fuckin hot for all that shit, with this global warming..... 




papassion -> RE: Poll: Obama would handle invading aliens better than Mitt Romney (7/2/2012 11:19:06 AM)

Obama would sell them some cockamamie "green jobs" company and bankrupt them! Romney would outsource them to China!




mnottertail -> RE: Poll: Obama would handle invading aliens better than Mitt Romney (7/2/2012 11:23:20 AM)

Thereby leaving them on this planet, so you are going Obama as most effective in dealing with this, then?




papassion -> RE: Poll: Obama would handle invading aliens better than Mitt Romney (7/2/2012 12:53:23 PM)

???? they are sitting pissed in a bankrupt solar energy plant! They are pissed and going to retaliate! Romney sent them to good China jobs. Making them happy and friendly!




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