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RE: al-Zarqaqi killed in Iraq - 6/9/2006 7:14:25 PM   
Wolf1020


Posts: 447
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From: Anderson, SC
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meatcleaver, have you any understanding of war and basic common sense in military matters?  Not trying to insult you, I'm sure in plenty of ways you are very smart, but you have no real sense of military action.

When you have the shot, you take it.  If that means one or two innocent people die so that thousands of innocents and good guys can live, you take the shot.  Instead of being mad at the commanders for taking the shot get mad at the mothers who kept their children in the safe house knowing that if it was found out who was hiding there it could at any moment be bombed or raided?  Should the US have allowed more innocent civilians to have their heads sawed off by his hands personally?  Have you seen those videos?  This man was an animal if you want proof I will be happy to give you links so you can watch Americans, whose worst crime over there was driving a truck or helping the Iraqi government build civilian buildings, get their head sawed off while they gurgle and scream through the blood filling their severed windpipe.  Screaming as best they can for what seems like hours until the spinal cord is finally severed.  How bout some more car bombs killing innocent Iraqi mothers, blowing women and children up whose worst crime was buying food for the evening meal.

Collateral damage is the way of war.  Nobody likes it, but that is simply how it is and sometimes a few innocents end up in harms way and die so that many, many others can live.  He was the head, we found a lot of information in what was left of the house, hundreds or thousands of lives were probably spared by taking him out.  For the innocents that died we are all sorry, but put your blame in this case where it is due.

_____________________________

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RE: al-Zarqaqi killed in Iraq - 6/9/2006 8:02:47 PM   
NeedToUseYou


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From: None of your business
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

The one thing that seems to be missed is that apparently six innocent people got killed in the blast (according to American military sources). If I was one of the relatives one of those six innocent people I think I would be buying myself a Klasnikov this morning.


Hmmm, I can't conceive of a situation where six innocent people just happen to be hanging out in a house with two of the top targets of the US military. Yeah, so I guess, the way you are looking at it. The "innocent" didn't know who these highly sought after targets were? And they just let these strangers come in the house and meet. Unknown to them the purpose of the meeting or the acts they committed in the past. ok, look purple elephants. LOL.

For the record, I'm glad all of them are dead.

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RE: al-Zarqaqi killed in Iraq - 6/9/2006 8:08:32 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Maybe they were family members?  Who knows?  I'm not condemning this attack, but it's unwarranted to assume that the other people in the building must have been terrorists too.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou

Hmmm, I can't conceive of a situation where six innocent people just happen to be hanging out in a house with two of the top targets of the US military.

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RE: al-Zarqaqi killed in Iraq - 6/9/2006 8:54:55 PM   
NeedToUseYou


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Maybe they were family members?  Who knows?  I'm not condemning this attack, but it's unwarranted to assume that the other people in the building must have been terrorists too.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou

Hmmm, I can't conceive of a situation where six innocent people just happen to be hanging out in a house with two of the top targets of the US military.



Ok, so that would mean they knew what he was doing. Same opinion, even if family.


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RE: al-Zarqaqi killed in Iraq - 6/9/2006 9:58:22 PM   
Lordandmaster


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Status: offline 		Well, this discussion is somewhat pointless, because we're both just speculating, but if these other people were wives, for example, you can't credibly argue that they could have rebelled or something against their husbands.  Or maybe they were Zarqawi's children--ever thought of that?  Establishing "guilt" and "innocence" in repressive societies isn't as easy as saying, "OK, you were in the same building as a known terrorist, therefore you must be guilty too."

Anyway, the military doesn't care whether these other people were guilty or innocent; they were simply in the category of collateral damage.  End of story, from our point of view, but not from the point of view of some Iraqi who saw the killing of what HE may have thought was an innocent victim.  And people like that go on to commit more terrorist acts.

< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 6/9/2006 9:59:17 PM >

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RE: al-Zarqaqi killed in Iraq - 6/9/2006 10:09:35 PM   
Kedikat


Posts: 680
Joined: 4/20/2006
Status: offline 		Does anyone posting on Iraq or Afghanistan threads think that some of the bombs and civilian/police slayings may be some form of coallition destabalization tactics?
A terrible concept. But wars and this sort of overt covert combination of war breeds tactics that are very bizarre and questionable in morals and results. The tactics of open warfare are usually sensible, as moral as war allows, and reasonably direct in actions. But every war has sub warfare on many levels. I would not be surprised to learn that some bombs are set, and many slayings carried out by other branches of coallition military/security/governments. War, economics and politics are carried out on many levels with perverse actions and plans.

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RE: al-Zarqaqi killed in Iraq - 6/9/2006 11:59:19 PM   
NastyDaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kedikat
Does anyone posting on Iraq or Afghanistan threads think that some of the bombs and civilian/police slayings may be some form of coallition destabalization tactics?


It's not just a job, eh? Be all you can be....

Be the first kid from your hometown to join an elite secret unt, dress in bedsheets, wear a bomb vest and blow your infidel ass up so Americans back home will think insurgents did it... step right up Eugene.

A little far fetched I'd say.

I'd possibly buy an organized crime ring within each of the coalition militaries... all conspiring and trading reese's peanut butter cups to their counterpart secret organized crime insurgent rings, reese's for hashish or opium to be funneled back to the US, Europe and Aussieland for distro. Once a network like that was setup, hiring a few mercenaries or moonlighting GI's to do as you proposed... to keep their ideal environment and drug network in place and intact.... I'd be more prone to go hmmm over an angle such as that.

Ever heard of the Golden Triangle?

   

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RE: al-Zarqaqi killed in Iraq - 6/9/2006 11:59:59 PM   
Lordandmaster


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Status: offline 		I've thought about that, but I don't think it's likely, because many of the bombers have been seen by eyewitnesses before the shit hit the fan.  I don't think we have that many native Iraqis on our payroll who are willing to blow themselves up for our dark purposes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kedikat

Does anyone posting on Iraq or Afghanistan threads think that some of the bombs and civilian/police slayings may be some form of coallition destabalization tactics?

(in reply to Kedikat)
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RE: al-Zarqaqi killed in Iraq - 6/10/2006 1:54:52 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		I know the man was an animal and he got what he deserved but why should innocent people get what he deserved too?

The invasion was we are told to liberate the Iraqis not kill them. Without any effort I can think of three incidents in the last couple of weeks where twenty six innocent Iraqis were killed. Those incidents are beamed all over the world showing what a brutal, uncaring and oppressive occupation the so called liberation is. Such incidents are a recruitment call for more Iraqis to join the insurgency. I've seen American soldiers on TV say they are told not to worry about civilian deaths and that they'll be written off as insurgents. From what I can tell there are many American troops unhappy with their orders.

If we want to save the lives of thousands of good guys then the invasion shouldn't have taken place. But since the invasion has taken place, troops should be used to track down and take out terrorists not the indiscriminate use of 500 pound bombs. The use of bombs in a situation like this is an American tactic and not one liked by most of the coalition. I know American troops make up 90% of the coalition and are taking the brunt of the insurgency and that Britain is just a fig leaf of international support. Believe me, outside America, the occupation isn't seen as an occupation by good guys so every incident where the coalition takes innocent lives is seen as proof that the invasion is just an excuse (rightly or wrongly) to secure oil supplies.

(in reply to Wolf1020)
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RE: al-Zarqaqi killed in Iraq - 6/10/2006 3:39:34 AM   
Level


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Joined: 3/3/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
If we want to save the lives of thousands of good guys then the invasion shouldn't have taken place.


I've brought this up before, but it keeps becoming pertinent to these discussions. Invade, or not? If not, then do what? We used sanctions, but as this clip from an article says:
 
"To articulate the full scope of the resulting humanitarian disaster is a tall order; there have been hundreds of conflicting reports, and numbers are disputed. But one thing is clear: hundreds of thousands of Iraqis suffered and died due to sanctions. "

http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/2520

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

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RE: al-Zarqaqi killed in Iraq - 6/10/2006 4:09:20 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.


I agree it was a damned if you do and a damned if you don't situation but it wasn't the sanctions killing Iraqis but the regime's refusal to pay for food and medicine and blaming sanctions. A propaganda war would have been better. Anything but allowing images to be beamed round the world as apparent proof that the west doesn't care how many innocent Iraqis die. In the images sent out by Saddam's regime there were no western uniforms in the background hiding behind their armoured vehicles.

Sometimes I think it is only the people directly involved that can clean up their own mess and in this case it was an Arab problem and should have remained so. We could have helped from the sidelines.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 6/10/2006 4:12:01 AM >

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RE: al-Zarqaqi killed in Iraq - 6/10/2006 4:17:37 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		Actually it was Britain that caused the original problem by drawing indiscriminate lines in sand. Kuwait should have always been an Iraqi province and the Kurds should have originally been given their own homeland.

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RE: al-Zarqaqi killed in Iraq - 6/10/2006 7:24:41 AM   
JohnWarren


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From: Delray Beach, FL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Actually it was Britain that caused the original problem by drawing indiscriminate lines in sand. Kuwait should have always been an Iraqi province and the Kurds should have originally been given their own homeland.


Now here we are in complete agreement.  Three countries each with a religious majority as was done with Pakistan and India.  This would have the added bonus of making things hot for Iran who have been mistreating their naive Kurds. 

Instead of trying to manage a civil war... let's let them handle their civil war.

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RE: al-Zarqaqi killed in Iraq - 6/10/2006 7:54:52 AM   
Level


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Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline 		The president of Iraq's interim Governing Council has said  Baghdad would consider territorial claims over neighbouring Jordan and Kuwait in the future.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/6BAD9B67-1757-4BF0-9F2D-0A5260EA9ABC.htm

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RE: al-Zarqaqi killed in Iraq - 6/10/2006 11:03:45 AM   
ArtCatDom


Posts: 478
Joined: 1/20/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

The president of Iraq's interim Governing Council has said  Baghdad would consider territorial claims over neighbouring Jordan and Kuwait in the future.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/6BAD9B67-1757-4BF0-9F2D-0A5260EA9ABC.htm


Jordan wouldn't even be a concern if the Jordanian royalty were given their ancestral lands (Arabia) rather than having them handed off to the Saudis.

Just a thought.

*meow*

EDIT: Additional thought. Since Iraq and Jordan were declared united under the line of King Husein (and the line of King Faisal was deposed), would Iraq be considered a breakaway republic?

< Message edited by ArtCatDom -- 6/10/2006 11:07:44 AM >

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RE: al-Zarqaqi killed in Iraq - 6/10/2006 11:30:51 AM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		The gold frames from one of Saddam's palaces that were used with the pictures of the corpse was a bit on the freaky side.
 
Ok ... I will just say it ... it had a "Redneck, Mullet Wearing, Dork Factor" of about 9.95. Probably worth fifty-thousand votes, just here in Houston.

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RE: al-Zarqaqi killed in Iraq - 6/10/2006 1:07:06 PM   
Kedikat


Posts: 680
Joined: 4/20/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NastyDaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kedikat
Does anyone posting on Iraq or Afghanistan threads think that some of the bombs and civilian/police slayings may be some form of coallition destabalization tactics?


It's not just a job, eh? Be all you can be....

Be the first kid from your hometown to join an elite secret unt, dress in bedsheets, wear a bomb vest and blow your infidel ass up so Americans back home will think insurgents did it... step right up Eugene.

A little far fetched I'd say.

I'd possibly buy an organized crime ring within each of the coalition militaries... all conspiring and trading reese's peanut butter cups to their counterpart secret organized crime insurgent rings, reese's for hashish or opium to be funneled back to the US, Europe and Aussieland for distro. Once a network like that was setup, hiring a few mercenaries or moonlighting GI's to do as you proposed... to keep their ideal environment and drug network in place and intact.... I'd be more prone to go hmmm over an angle such as that.

Ever heard of the Golden Triangle?

 


Not all the bombs are suiciders. Governments have used death squads to destabilize in the past. Usually in covert warfare, in foreign countries using locals or mercenaries. But in such a hostile poulace, that may not be going the way you hope. Such tactics can keep them from settling and putting unified support behind a self government you may not want. It has been a lot of Iraqi police doing death squad raids. Not that they actually need any orders to do such things. But I can see the possibiliy of organized mayhem to keep things stirred.


< Message edited by Kedikat -- 6/10/2006 1:12:02 PM >

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RE: al-Zarqaqi killed in Iraq - 6/10/2006 5:12:25 PM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kedikat
Does anyone posting on Iraq or Afghanistan threads think that some of the bombs and civilian/police slayings may be some form of coallition destabalization tactics?

Indeed. The people of Iraq are having their strings pulled like puppets. Some of those supposed muslims sawing the heads off their victims indeed may also be allied black ops masquerading as muslims.
 
That Al Zarqawi fellow was an unfortunate man. First he was driven insane with hatred because of the unjustices perpetrated against him and other muslims who had their strings pulled and next the whole army of the USA was hunting and bombing him.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Wolf1020
hundreds or thousands of lives were probably spared by taking him out.
  
Hundreds or thousands of lives? I haven't kept count, but it would not surprise me if the USA did not already kill that many people in Afghanistan and in Iraq.
Saddam Hoessein, the Taliban and El Qaeda, as well as the government of Iran were all put into power by USA and western operations and secret services.
 
It is clear to me who the victims are, and it isn't the USA, but those poor people of those poor muslim countries that the USA is devastating and committing genocide on.
 
All muslims want to do is to live peacefully and to fight Satan. Once they realize that they are being attacked by Satan in the guise of the USA and its allies and that they will be murdered anyway, they may get quite desperate and determined.
 
I do hope that the people of the USA will tell their fighting relatives to come home.

(in reply to Kedikat)
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RE: al-Zarqaqi killed in Iraq - 6/10/2006 10:28:49 PM   
HappyWenItReigns


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quote:

ORIGINAL: feastie

Nothing like some good news to start off your day!


HELL YEAH!        Might as well give them their own private cell.. and access to rope.. let them do it themselves.

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RE: al-Zarqaqi killed in Iraq - 6/11/2006 8:01:34 AM   
NastyDaddy


Posts: 957
Joined: 9/8/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn
The gold frames from one of Saddam's palaces that were used with the pictures of the corpse was a bit on the freaky side.
 
Ok ... I will just say it ... it had a "Redneck, Mullet Wearing, Dork Factor" of about 9.95. Probably worth fifty-thousand votes, just here in Houston.


I must have missed that death photo... the one I saw on CNN and others was a wood framed picture, with obvious wood knots from the cheap wood showing on all sides.

An act of placing a gold ribbon on a turd changes nothing... the gold ribbon wearing turd is still a turd!

Where did you see a 50,000 vote gold framed Zarqawi death pic? Is that something only you observed, or is it still around? Did the Iraqi's use golden frames for death images displayed on aljazeera? If they did, then it is they who are glorifying this Zarqawi turd, not our mullet wearing rednecks... but their own.


< Message edited by NastyDaddy -- 6/11/2006 8:03:59 AM >

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