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RE: George Zimmerman Update... - 7/10/2012 5:32:59 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		So, you're saying that the Judge's opinion of the investigation is less significant that some no-body private investigator? I mean, if this Private Dick could actually do the job, wouldn't he be a REAL COP?

Sounds like sour grapes to me. Someone who CAN'T DO THE JOB has all sorts of opinions, which, of course, no-one with any actual authority gives a shit about.

You know, if the case was this weak, wouldn't O'Mara have used some of that money to print up a Motion to Dismiss or something?

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 281
RE: George Zimmerman Update... - 7/10/2012 5:35:20 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		The case against Zimmerman is so weak he was preparing to flee, until the Judge lo-jacked his ass, and prevented his flight. Of course, that's when Zimmerman realized that they couldn't keep hiding the money, and reported it, and the duplicate passport, right?

Yeah, that's an innocent person when there's no case against him.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 282
RE: George Zimmerman Update... - 7/10/2012 5:39:00 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		I was just thinking about the Judge's new bail conditions, and that '48 hour check-ins'.

Considering that when Zimmerman was given 48 hours to surrender, he turned himself in at like 47:50, with 10 minutes to go.

What's the over/under on Zimmerman missing that check-in between now and trial?



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 283
RE: George Zimmerman Update... - 7/10/2012 6:00:40 PM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline 		http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/news_columnists_ezorn/2012/07/conjecture-with-merritt-1.html

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 284
RE: George Zimmerman Update... - 7/10/2012 6:10:38 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

My opinion: This is self-defense. Zimmerman was not the aggressor, he did nothing to provoke Trayvon Martin’s beating him


The Police, Prosecution and apparently Judge have concluded differently. They all promote the theory that George Zimmerman's following, pursuit and confrontation, including Zimmerman's admitted threatening motion as if towards a weapon, which of course contradicts thie opinion that Zimmerman wasn't the aggressor.

But of course, I don't see him discussing Zimmerman's prior training to avoid confronting suspects, and how Zimmerman's conscious choice to go against that training, and the reasonable and prudent advice he received, directly lead to the death of Trayvon Martin.

You know, because once you focus on the totality of the event, and discard this pointless bickering about what happened AFTER Zimmerman made the threatening motion as if towards a weapon, which of course, is pretty much irrelevant given all other evidence against Zimmerman. Yes, as Trayvon Martin fought for his life, George Zimmerman sustained trivial injuries. If Zimmerman didn't want the risk of being injured by his victim, he had ample opportunity to avoid it, and ample training and advice to avoid it.

Zimmerman's like the guy who is SURPRISED that if you stick your finger in the electric socket you get a shock.... But hey, given his past history of swinging first and then asking questions later, it's not a huge surprise.

Again, getting ready to flee, and then when you're prevented THEN surrendering the hidden passport and money, that's not what INNOCENT people do, is it?



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 285
RE: George Zimmerman Update... - 7/10/2012 6:11:20 PM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

You know, if the case was this weak, wouldn't O'Mara have used some of that money to print up a Motion to Dismiss or something?



"I still think we have about six months of discovery to go. That is getting the rest of discovery from the state, then getting our discovery, getting our request out to various state agencies and organizations that we want to get information from. Then coming up with our experts and then getting ready for either a pretrial motion, a Stand Your Ground motion and then trial if need be."

- Mark O'Mara

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 286
RE: George Zimmerman Update... - 7/10/2012 6:12:27 PM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline 		Meanwhile, still zero evidence yet known to disprove self defense.

(in reply to Raiikun)
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RE: George Zimmerman Update... - 7/10/2012 6:13:25 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Thats not going to be public prior to the trial. 

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 288
RE: George Zimmerman Update... - 7/10/2012 6:17:34 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		I think Zimmerman's admission of making threatening motions as if towards a weapon is all the evidence needed to eliminate self-defense.

Once Zimmerman appeared to reach for his gun, TRAYVON MARTIN'S RIGHT TO USE LETHAL FORCE IN SELF-DEFENSE BEGAN AND ZIMMERMAN'S ENDED.

I guess Zimmerman's dad failed to coach him to omit the admission of appearing to go for his gun. Which just goes to show that maybe the retarded apple didn't fall too far from the tree...

Wanna know how not to be hit by your victim as they fight for their life? Don't appear to go for your gun.


< Message edited by farglebargle -- 7/10/2012 6:28:22 PM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 289
RE: George Zimmerman Update... - 7/10/2012 6:26:37 PM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Thats not going to be public prior to the trial. 


You might not be aware that the Florida sunshine laws pretty much guarantee about everything will be made public.

The public gets it's next (and I think final) big evidence dump tomorrow, but judging by the table of contents in it, it doesn't look like there will be anything to disprove self defense there either.

But at least you seem willing to acknowledge that none of the publicly known evidence disputes George's self defense claim.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 290
RE: George Zimmerman Update... - 7/10/2012 6:27:43 PM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


Once Zimmerman appeared to reach for his gun, TRAYVON MARTIN'S RIGHT TO USE LETHAL FORCE IN SELF-DEFENSE AND ZIMMERMAN'S ENDED.



This proves how ignorant of Florida law you are. Rights to self defense are not mutually exclusive.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 291
RE: George Zimmerman Update... - 7/10/2012 6:30:09 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		You might not be aware you are unable to read.  That will not be public before the trial.  Sunshine laws havent one fucking thing to do with nothing.  

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 292
RE: George Zimmerman Update... - 7/10/2012 6:31:59 PM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline 		According to Florida law, if Trayvon thought there was an imminent use of force about to be used against him, he could have argued that he had the right to hit George, knock him down, or whatever. But once it turned out that pocket George was reaching for had no gun in it, Trayvon's continued banging of George's head after having him pinned to the ground would be disproportionate force, giving George justification to using lethal force.

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 293
RE: George Zimmerman Update... - 7/10/2012 6:34:04 PM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

You might not be aware you are unable to read.  That will not be public before the trial.  Sunshine laws havent one fucking thing to do with nothing.  


Florida law says that all evidence the Prosecution has must be given to the Defense. (And vice versa).
Florida law also says that once this happens, the media has full rights to the same information, except for very specific exceptions. (Witness names to protect the witnesses being the biggie here).

So yes, any relevant evidence to the trial will be public beforehand. It's the law in Florida.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 294
RE: George Zimmerman Update... - 7/10/2012 6:34:52 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		You are, of course, referring to 776.041, which covers Zimmerman's use of force:

776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:

(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or

(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:

(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm

Given the trivial nature of Zimmerman's injuries, I do not seeing him prevailing given the "REASONABLY BELIEVES" qualifier, and Zimmerman's known instances of unreasonable behaviour that night.


and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or


This is something which I'd really like to see Zimmerman's defense pursue. I do not believe that Zimmerman ever expressed any attempt to escape after making the threatening motions which caused him to be the aggressor.

(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

This is another point which I'd like to see Zimmerman's defense pursue. I do not believe that Zimmerman ever expressed any indication that he desired to withdraw.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 295
RE: George Zimmerman Update... - 7/10/2012 6:36:28 PM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle



Given the trivial nature of Zimmerman's injuries, I do not seeing him prevailing given the "REASONABLY BELIEVES" qualifier, and Zimmerman's known instances of unreasonable behaviour that night.



Existing injuries have nothing to do with the test for self defense. We've covered this.



quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


This is something which I'd really like to see Zimmerman's defense pursue. I do not believe that Zimmerman ever expressed any attempt to escape after making the threatening motions which caused him to be the aggressor.



Struggling to get away while screaming for over half a minute meets that burden, even if the State can prove him the aggressor, which I think they'll fail to do.

< Message edited by Raiikun -- 7/10/2012 6:37:39 PM >

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 296
RE: George Zimmerman Update... - 7/10/2012 6:36:43 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		discovery is the law in the United States court system.  That aint floridas sunshine laws (they are the equivalent to wisconsin open meeting laws in government)

Insofar as this: Florida law also says that once this happens, the media has full rights to the same information, except for very specific exceptions.

can you cite the statute, please?

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 297
RE: George Zimmerman Update... - 7/10/2012 6:39:05 PM   
Raiikun


Posts: 2650
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

discovery is the law in the United States court system.  That aint floridas sunshine laws (they are the equivalent to wisconsin open meeting laws in government)

Insofar as this: Florida law also says that once this happens, the media has full rights to the same information, except for very specific exceptions.

can you cite the statute, please?



Start here.


(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 298
RE: George Zimmerman Update... - 7/10/2012 6:40:00 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Yup, thats the sunshine law alright, but nothing like you are on about.

so, you got a cite to the statute?

5.  Documents given or required by law or agency rule to be given to the person arrested, except as provided in s. 119.071(2)(h), and, except that the court in a criminal case may order that certain information required by law or agency rule to be given to the person arrested be maintained in a confidential manner and exempt from the provisions of s. 119.07(1) until released at trial if it is found that the release of such information would:

(and you can quote me)

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 7/10/2012 6:42:19 PM >

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 299
RE: George Zimmerman Update... - 7/10/2012 6:46:52 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle



Given the trivial nature of Zimmerman's injuries, I do not seeing him prevailing given the "REASONABLY BELIEVES" qualifier, and Zimmerman's known instances of unreasonable behaviour that night.



Existing injuries have nothing to do with the test for self defense. We've covered this.



quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


This is something which I'd really like to see Zimmerman's defense pursue. I do not believe that Zimmerman ever expressed any attempt to escape after making the threatening motions which caused him to be the aggressor.



Struggling to get away while screaming for over half a minute meets that burden, even if the State can prove him the aggressor, which I think they'll fail to do.


Yeah, there's your defective reliance on those conflicting 'eyewitness reports'. And we've all explained why -- at the end of the day -- they're all going to cancel themselves out and be a wash. You BEGIN by just disregarding any witness who appears to have changed their story at any point, since while it's not an indicator of unreliability per-se, it's not compelling given all the conflicting aspects.

So, disregarding all the evidence you're counting on, what's left? Zimmerman's claims? Well, Zimmerman's one of those people who has changed his story, right? So discounting Zimmerman's claims, what's left?

Zimmerman called Sanford PD, telling the dispatcher all about his frustration with black kids running around, then against his training and the advice of the dispatcher chose to confront Martin, where Zimmerman admits making threatening motions as if towards a weapon.

And that my friends, looks like the depraved indifference needed for Murder-2.

Of course, I suppose O'Mara maybe sell the whole "Zimmerman's BELIEVABLE, and isn't lying to you RIGHT NOW, despite all the scumbag things he's been doing, including trying to stiff me out of my legal fees...."

I don't see O'Mara actually being able to put aside the betrayal, and effectively selling that. In fact, that might be a route for Zimmerman's appeals. That O'Mara didn't provide effective representation because of his bias of being a victim of George and Shellie's fraudulent indignancy claims.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 300
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