Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

How Far We Haven't Come....


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> How Far We Haven't Come.... Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
How Far We Haven't Come.... - 10/31/2004 8:18:13 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		Happy Halloween!!

Today's a fun day for us in the lifestyle. We can go out and dress in costume we usually have to keep secret or only wear to special events at special places. But on Halloween, beth can be my chained peasent girl accused witch and I can be her "Spanish Inquisitor", and we can walk the streets or drive around the city and only generate smiles versus scornful stares and ridicule. Today on Santa Monica Boulevard in West Hollywood there will be an estimated 250,000 people strolling around in various costumes, both lifestyle and non-lifestyle.

It has gotten me thinking. It has become relatively common, at least in more open cities such as LA, SF, Miami, and NYC to see two gay people walking hand in hand. I'm sure you've seen public same sex kisses, same sex affection being exchanged. I doubt if any restaurant or other public place would ask a gay couple to leave or cease their activity. But they same can not be said, if I wanted to take beth to a restaurant wearing her collar, cuffs, and leash. Not the same you say? It's our natural way of life. We were born this way. It's our choice to live this way. I'm not saying we want or need to do this to be who we are - but try it, and see how long you last dinning out.

Better yet, again referencing the media, over 1/3 of the current TV shows either have major gay character, a gay reoccurring character, or, in the case of dramas, have 'gay theme' episodes. Their characters offer a range, from sick psychopaths, to the happy gay neighbor, to just folk - who happen to be gay. How nice - just like life. But a BDSM lifestyle character - ALWAYS the psycho, always the pervert, always the one who "did it" or caused it to happen.

So my fellow closeted friends - enjoy the day. Make sure you get more treats then tricks. And tomorrow, lets work together to be happy and gay!
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: How Far We Haven't Come.... - 10/31/2004 10:26:00 AM   
GentleMistress


Posts: 116
Joined: 8/19/2004
Status: offline 		I loved this post and thank you for the smile. Happy Hallows Eve one and all!

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: How Far We Haven't Come.... - 10/31/2004 11:13:07 AM   
NoCalOwner


Posts: 241
Status: offline 		This is the exact dichotomy we face every year. Our town has a GLBT population of somewhere around 10-20%, and about a third of local businesses fly rainbow flags. Nobody's shocked to see leathermen wandering main street, or leather dykes for that matter. And we love the acceptance, it's one of the reasons we bought a house here. Zoot can kiss a girl on Main Street and nobody minds! And yet, we too dare only wear our "costumes" on Halloween, and very carefully at that. Last year she was a devil girl on a leash, but this year I don't think we're even going to try the leash. She'll be a djinn, and I'll pull on a South Asian outfit as the closest thing I have to Middle Eastern. Hopefully I can wind a turban that will last over 15 minutes, and won't be hassled for wearing a scimitar.

It's enough of a bummer to not be able to act like ourselves, but when we have to go to great lengths to get away with even pretending to be pretending to be acting like ourselves, that's just too much.

< Message edited by NoCalOwner -- 10/31/2004 11:14:26 AM >

_____________________________

"Find more pleasure in intelligent dissent rather than passive agreement; for if you value intelligence as you should, the former implies a deeper agreement than the latter."
-- Bertrand Russell

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: How Far We Haven't Come.... - 10/31/2004 11:46:21 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		More fuel to the discussion; after the post another situation came to mind. A gay couple moves next door to vanilla's and they bring over cookies - We move in and unload a St. Andrew's cross and they send over the cops. Add children, even for weekend visits and you're sure to receive a visit from Child Protective Services.

beth proposed this was due to the political correctness afforded the gay population. BDSM lifestylers have become the new acceptable political "goat". Or as she put it; "Hey, maybe they're gay but at least they're not into S&M." The question becomes - who will follow us? Who is the next "scapegoat"?

(in reply to NoCalOwner)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: How Far We Haven't Come.... - 10/31/2004 12:23:03 PM   
typesgirl


Posts: 102
Joined: 10/17/2004
Status: offline 		Mercnbeth:
First, this is an awesome post. Thanks for expressing what so many of us feel, and doing it so eloquently.

I'm a little torn on this issue. I certainly don't believe that the authorities have any reason to suspect U/us or limit U/us because of O/our way of life. I'm already on a few FBI shortlists for other reasons and I certainly wouldn't want to think that I might get on another one for buying handcuffs etc. but it wouldn't surprise me. I think W/we should all encourage each other to at least limit how much W/we 'closet.' The world deserves and needs a little bit of what the llifestyle can teach: loyalty, patience, discipline, communication etc.

However, that being said. I have to admit there is also a part of me that is glad that W/we are a little misunderstood. I get to keep this part of my life to myself. I don't have to check a box on a form to declare it. I don't have to explain to anyone I don't want to. But when I meet a fellow lifestyler (like the gentleman who gave me a gentle smile and wink when he saw my collar in the grocery store) it's an immediate bond. Something so close to my heart that I only have to share with those I choose to.

I guess my head leans one direction and my heart the other. Just this sub's respectful opinions.

Happy Halloween to A/all!
typesgirl

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: How Far We Haven't Come.... - 10/31/2004 12:58:34 PM   
smile2cu


Posts: 265
Joined: 7/21/2004
From: Dayton, OH
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
Happy Halloween!!

A few years ago I took the New York city subway on Halloween. What was interesting was to try and figure out who was in costume and who wasn't. Really Hard!

_____________________________

Friendly, kind, cheerful, and oral.

~smile~

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: How Far We Haven't Come.... - 10/31/2004 1:06:55 PM   
NoCalOwner


Posts: 241
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
beth proposed this was due to the political correctness afforded the gay population. BDSM lifestylers have become the new acceptable political "goat". Or as she put it; "Hey, maybe they're gay but at least they're not into S&M." The question becomes - who will follow us? Who is the next "scapegoat"?

To be slightly less cynical than usual, I guess that's one way to put it, but I think that there's a reason for it. Not a very good reason, but one which can lend some understanding.

Vanilla folks have started to accept that sexual preference is part of who we are, not something we chose. While there seems to be plenty of agreement here about dominant or submissive tendencies being part of our inherent makeup, society at large is not yet aware of this fact, or is ignoring it. And, to some extent, I can see how they feel that way. Sexual preference is very much a keystone in the structure of our personality. I could give up bondage, but I am not capable of changing sexual preference. I think the problem is deeper, that society thinks that we need some sort of extreme justification for deviation from vanilla sexuality. Why should we have to be vanilla unless it is absolutely out of our control? Our society has a LONG way to go before it qualifies as sex-positive.

_____________________________

"Find more pleasure in intelligent dissent rather than passive agreement; for if you value intelligence as you should, the former implies a deeper agreement than the latter."
-- Bertrand Russell

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: How Far We Haven't Come.... - 10/31/2004 7:23:08 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline 		Thanks for the great thread. :)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
It has gotten me thinking. It has become relatively common, at least in more open cities such as LA, SF, Miami, and NYC to see two gay people walking hand in hand. I'm sure you've seen public same sex kisses, same sex affection being exchanged.


Yup! Montreal is very open minded that way as well. Depends on the neighbourhood though. I have seen the kinky display stuff in public as well, but rarely.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
I doubt if any restaurant or other public place would ask a gay couple to leave or cease their activity.


Actually yeah, I have. And in the cool hip neighbourhood in a diner at 3am. Two girlfriends of mine and I were sitting having post-clubbing snack and they kissed. We were asked to leave as our kind was not welcome there. When I protested that we were paying customers and doing nothing illegal, she repeated that we weren’t welcomed there. I grinned and I said, well obviously neither was our money and we walked out.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
But they same can not be said, if I wanted to take beth to a restaurant wearing her collar, cuffs, and leash. Not the same you say? It's our natural way of life. We were born this way. It's our choice to live this way. I'm not saying we want or need to do this to be who we are - but try it, and see how long you last dinning out.


Only advice I can give you is avoid Rapido on St-Denis & Mont-Royal. Otherwise, good luck!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
beth proposed this was due to the political correctness afforded the gay population. BDSM lifestylers have become the new acceptable political "goat". Or as she put it; "Hey, maybe they're gay but at least they're not into S&M." The question becomes - who will follow us? Who is the next "scapegoat"?


I was in my early 20s in the early 90s. I was coming out of the closet, caught somewhere between bigirl and lesbian. The 70 & 80s were tremendous years of underground battles by the gay & lesbian community with such organisations as ACT-UP and PFLAG everywhere. I remember when Maria Shriver did her prime time issue on gays and lesbians and how I gathered with other friends to watch it. I remember my friend Normand (then late 30s) saying to me "your generation will have it so easy compared to us."

I don't know if the last 10 years have been easy. I'm not the lesbian poster child so I think I've had it easier then most but I have had a couple of friend suffer from discrimination based on their sexual orientation. I've had some who have been victims of violence based on it.

I guess what I'm saying is these things take time. I know it sucks and I wish people would just wake up and get over themselves and their fears but that isn't the way our societies work. I think that what you two do in terms of being open and out there and truely in love helps a lot of people and changes attitudes.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: How Far We Haven't Come.... - 10/31/2004 7:46:55 PM   
newflowers


Posts: 292
Joined: 5/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

While there seems to be plenty of agreement here about dominant or submissive tendencies being part of our inherent makeup, society at large is not yet aware of this fact, or is ignoring it.


NoCal -

In California, society is more open and accepting of sexuality than we may find in some other places in the country. And thank goodness I live in California. I think a large part of the lack of complete acceptance of BDSM and homosexuality is that the tendencies were considered mental illnesses not too terribly long ago. And though the medical community has come a long way, parts of society have yet to catch up. Among teenagers at school, being called "gay" is an insult worthy of fighting.

In America specifically, society has historically placed great emphasis on self-reliance and independence - the "pulling yourself up by your boot straps" mentality. Regardless of who works for what philosophical leanings, feminism does play a part in the way BDSM is viewed. A dominant male is acceptable - right up until the time he is preceived to be "abusive." A dominant female may still be called an aggressive bitch in some places, but that is less of an insult than those given to submissive females. Add in a little sadomasochism and we become extremely politically incorrect.

As a society that advocates feminism, we have a difficult time accepting women who wish to be wives and mothers and NOT work outside of the home. And yet it is easier to accept that role than it is to accept there there are women who wish to be under the complete authority and power of a male partner. To say this woman who wants the control of another also wants to be spanked/flogged/whipped/clipped and other things that are considered ABUSE... The idea that a woman (or a man) would consent to such is beyond the imagination of many and far too politically incorrect to be accepted by most.

Dominance and submission, Master and slave, Sadist and masochist as a lifestyle preferred by intelligent, rational men and women - the dichotomy is too vast for most to understand.

newflowers

(in reply to NoCalOwner)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: How Far We Haven't Come.... - 10/31/2004 8:22:37 PM   
Estring


Posts: 3314
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		The only time most people even become aware of BDSM is when some sicko that has kidnapped and imprisoned men or women, or even worse tortured then murdered them gets a ton of attention in the news. Most people think of these types of people whenever BDSM is mentioned. To try to explain the dynamics of a healthy lifestyle in BDSM to most people is pointless. Unless you are interested in it, you won't take the time to understand it.
It will be a long time, if ever, before BDSM becomes mainstream.

< Message edited by Estring -- 10/31/2004 8:23:32 PM >

(in reply to newflowers)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: How Far We Haven't Come.... - 10/31/2004 10:30:04 PM   
MrThorns


Posts: 919
Joined: 6/4/2004
Status: offline 		Mercnbeth,

I loved the post. A very happy Halloween to you both.

This topic has been one of the primary reasons I bitch so often about censorship, supression of ideas and interests, and the infringement of our civil rights due to our choice of lifestyle. I bitch because as long as we continue to live in the shadows, keeping completely to ourselves, and afraid of the legal repercussions we may face due to the way we choose to live our lives, we will always be seen as the BDSM psycho killers in the movies.

Look at homosexuals 40-50 years ago. Couldn't you be arrested in some places for being gay? For public displays of affection towards a member of the same gender? There is still plenty of discrimination against gays in our society, but it has lessened. If you didnt hire someone because they were a homosexual, you could be charged with discrimination. Well, isn't it also discrimination to lose your job because you partake in BDSM activities? Aren't there gay schoolteachers? Government officials? What's the difference?

To me, the difference is organization and activism. The gay pride movement secured a lot of rights for many homosexuals. Yes, there is still a lot of work to be done before the playing field is level, but they have definately come a long way. I know that we have Leather Pride events, but I wonder if they are as big or as organized as they need to be in order to secure our rights.

My suggestion is for anyone concerned about losing their job, their kids, or any of their basic civil rights due to their involvement in BDSM activities between consenting adults, to get out and vote their conscience on Nov 2nd, get involved with your local groups, if you have no local group...make one, get involved with the leather community and seek out information and assistance to get our collective shit together. I'm tired of having to operate in the dark.

~Thorns

_____________________________

~"Do you know what the chain of command is? Its the chain I beat ya with when ya don't follow my command."

"My inner child is a mean little fucker"

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: How Far We Haven't Come.... - 11/1/2004 4:11:55 AM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

I'm tired of having to operate in the dark.


Yeah... that must make suturing a bitch!

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to MrThorns)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: How Far We Haven't Come.... - 11/1/2004 5:16:58 AM   
MrThorns


Posts: 919
Joined: 6/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

I'm tired of having to operate in the dark.


Yeah... that must make suturing a bitch!

- LA


Heh. It's a lot like playing Marco Polo with a singletail.

~Thorns




_____________________________

~"Do you know what the chain of command is? Its the chain I beat ya with when ya don't follow my command."

"My inner child is a mean little fucker"

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: How Far We Haven't Come.... - 11/1/2004 7:08:39 AM   
Destinysskeins


Posts: 267
Joined: 7/1/2004
Status: offline 		Greetings,

I'm going to go along with MrThorns viewpoint on this one and say that apparently we Lifestylers aren't spending enough money on political lobbists. (But then when it comes to politics i'm a jaded lil bitch! )

Well wishes!

(in reply to MrThorns)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: How Far We Haven't Come.... - 11/1/2004 7:38:22 AM   
NoCalOwner


Posts: 241
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Destinysskeins
I'm going to go along with MrThorns viewpoint on this one and say that apparently we Lifestylers aren't spending enough money on political lobbists.


For that matter, we haven't even had our Stonewall Riots yet. Given a grumpy DA, we can still end up behind bars in most jurisdictions, and I've seen very little going on to try to change that. Stonewall was in 1969. The last antisodomy laws were overruled in 2003. If we ever do decide to work at it, I'd still expect it to take us 34 years.

_____________________________

"Find more pleasure in intelligent dissent rather than passive agreement; for if you value intelligence as you should, the former implies a deeper agreement than the latter."
-- Bertrand Russell

(in reply to Destinysskeins)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: How Far We Haven't Come.... - 11/1/2004 9:10:06 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		We put our money where my mouth is. I contribute to the National Coalition for Sexual Freedom. Maybe you can tell by these board posts, I'm not afraid of to give my opinions, or publishing them.

The NCSF is an all encompassing organization. If you visit their site, you'll see they advocate for many groups. I think one of the things they do best is publish various news reports regarding incidents and prejudice against any lifestyle. For example currently they have news accounts of the AHS Obsessive Fetish Ball being canceled by the Olathe, KS Holiday Inn as well as articles such as "Homosexual S&M part of Christianity?"

This is their site:http://www.ncsfreedom.org/index.htm

I have had quite a few discussions with their representative at various conventions I've attended. They are very active and have a national presence. As such, they have to pick their battles. And unlike the ACLU, NAACP, AARP, NOW, JDL, or even the Mothers and Fathers Italian Association, they have no standing army of solders ready to protest at a moments notice. But having been formed in 1997 and only recently beginning a grass roots recruiting effort maybe somewhere down the road it will have a stronger presence and impact. For now - they are best a resource for publication of where politicians stand on lifestyle issues. Hopefully we will use that information when we vote tomorrow.

I'd run for political office - but I did inhale.

(in reply to NoCalOwner)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: How Far We Haven't Come.... - 11/1/2004 9:43:15 AM   
happypervert


Posts: 2203
Joined: 5/11/2004
From: Scranton, PA
Status: offline 		I think you could be exaggerating, Merc. If you take Beth out with cuffs and collar, it can be overlooked as a fashion statement much like you'll commonly see on MTV. Adding the leash is probably a bit too "in your face" for going out in public -- it might be compared to the gay couple walking hand in hand, but one wearing kneepads and a KY Jelly Tee shirt. Still, images are creeping into society -- I even saw Snoop Dogg being interviewed while having 2 hos collared and leashed. Though BDSM folks may not be as accepted in general society as the gay community is when they are on their own turf, gays also have more sense than to flaunt their lifestyle when when they're in redneck areas.

You might also recall when weapons inspectors were in pre-invasion Iraq, somebody tried to make a stink about one of the inspectors being a prominent member of the BDSM community, and the response from Hans Blix (I think) was basically "So what?". So I simply don't believe it is as bad as you make it out to be. Somewhere around these forums is a thread from perhaps a month or two ago where tv characters are making references to bondage, spankings and such; and obviously you haven't seen the CSI episodes with the pro dommes. So it may not be represented as often as gays in the media, but that may also be because BDSM simply isn't as common in society.

_____________________________

"Get a bicycle. You will not regret it if you live." . . . Mark Twain

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: How Far We Haven't Come.... - 11/1/2004 10:26:24 AM   
proudsub


Posts: 6142
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Washington
Status: offline
quote:

Somewhere around these forums is a thread from perhaps a month or two ago where tv characters are making references to bondage, spankings and such;


I'm not sure if this is the thread you meant:

BDSM in vanilla movies

_____________________________

proudsub

"Without goals you become what you were. With goals you become what you wish." .

"You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts"--Alan Greenspan


(in reply to happypervert)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: How Far We Haven't Come.... - 11/1/2004 11:18:16 AM   
Thanatosian


Posts: 765
Joined: 5/10/2004
From: New Castle, PA
Status: offline
quote:

But a BDSM lifestyle character - ALWAYS the psycho, always the pervert, always the one who "did it" or caused it to happen.


Not quite ALWAYS - CSI has done a couple of BDSM friendly episodes that are among the most popular episodes requested by viewers.



_____________________________

Apply Usual Caveats Here

An expert is somone who has made all the mistakes there are to be made

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: How Far We Haven't Come.... - 11/1/2004 7:53:17 PM   
compes


Posts: 92
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NoCalOwner
The last antisodomy laws were overruled in 2003.


Not quite. Sodomy is still illegal in the Military, according to the UCMJ (Subchapter X, Section 925 Article 125) Sodomy is defined as:

quote:

925. ART. 125. SODOMY
(a) Any person subject to this chapter who engages in unnatural carnal copulation with another person of the same or opposite sex or with an animal is guilty of sodomy. Penetration , however slight, is sufficient to complete the offense.
(b) Any person found guilty of sodomy shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.


Notice how vague this definition is? It covers a lot of ground.

Compes

(in reply to NoCalOwner)
Profile   Post #: 20
Page:   [1] 2   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> How Far We Haven't Come.... Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.094