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RE: How Far We Haven't Come.... - 11/2/2004 6:39:03 AM

newflowers

Posts: 292
Joined: 5/23/2004
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quote:

You might also recall when weapons inspectors were in pre-invasion Iraq, somebody tried to make a stink about one of the inspectors being a prominent member of the BDSM community, and the response from Hans Blix (I think) was basically "So what?". So I simply don't believe it is as bad as you make it out to be.

I must disagree with your disagreement. There was recently a politician in the news who was drummed out of an election because of his interest in BDSM and swinging - O'Neal maybe - I'm not sure of the name and I know there is a thread about it here somewhere.

I also know that should the wrong person get a mind to, involvement in certain BDSM activities is reason to have your children removed from your home. If it is done at school, the school do not even have to notify you, social services will do so (eventually). The only thing that is needed is for someone to say they think your child may be in danger or there is potential danger - after all a woman who lets herself be hit would surely allow same for a child and a man who hits a woman would surely hit a child. Teachers and other school employees sign documentation that they will report any suspected child abuse, neglect, or endangerment. This is very subjective as what we may see is SSC is not what others see and so the policy at schools and for social services is to report now and investigate later. You might think your kid will "never tell", but children talk and talk and talk and that talk is repeated and taken out of context. There is a group that deals with BDSM legal issues and they have any number of antedotes of parents losing or being faced with the lose of a child because an ex knows of their lifestyle choices.

I would say that Merc exaggerates not at all.

newflowers

(in reply to happypervert)

Post #: 21

RE: How Far We Haven't Come.... - 11/2/2004 8:22:43 AM

srahfox

Posts: 261
Joined: 10/17/2004
Status: offline

I think BDSM is getting a little more acceptance, you do see it in tv and cartoons (Family guy.. the safeword is banana. MTV...talking about slapbracelets.. may make you use your safeword) however it is by no means 'safe'. I wouldn't go out in public with collar, cuffs, and a leash. I've done it with a collar, that's a fashion statement. My Master and I have very little in the way of groups were we live in godforsaken florida, and we thought about starting one ourselves. It was a very short lived conversation because we both realized that it would cost him his job is anyone should find out. Notice I said would and not could, we both know it would happen.
Writers and artist tend to be interesting people, they will work anything in if they think they can get away with it. So I don't think that while we are starting to get some recognition in the general media, that that means all is safe.
Look at us here, sometimes we can't even agree on what is 'acceptable' even when it is something someone else wants. How is the outside world going to see that.
There was a post on here about a slave who's new masters made her post that they have had her in overnight bondage every night so far. Some people were rather upset. How was that caring, sounded dangerous. Well, yes. But we don't know the whole story. Maybe this was something agreed on before hand. Maybe one of them stayed all night to make sure she was okay. We don't know. But yet people were getting rather upset about this. All of that in a forum where it should have been "Acceptable". If we can't see it, it's going to take a long time for outsiders to do so.
I will say one thing, you can be damned sure that when I vote later today, I will be voting with that in mind.

(in reply to newflowers)

Post #: 22

RE: How Far We Haven't Come.... - 11/2/2004 9:37:19 AM

Thanatosian

Posts: 765
Joined: 5/10/2004
From: New Castle, PA
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quote:

here was recently a politician in the news who was drummed out of an election because of his interest in BDSM and swinging

I believe you are thinking of Ryan - actress Jeri Ryan's (ex?)husband - I cant remember his first name (but hey, with her looking the way she does and me being a het male, can anyone blame me (other than the feminists)?)

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Post #: 23

RE: How Far We Haven't Come.... - 11/2/2004 11:07:31 AM

NoCalOwner

Posts: 241
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thanatosian

quote:

here was recently a politician in the news who was drummed out of an election because of his interest in BDSM and swinging

I believe you are thinking of Ryan - actress Jeri Ryan's (ex?)husband - I cant remember his first name (but hey, with her looking the way she does and me being a het male, can anyone blame me (other than the feminists)?)

I can't blame you, I had to look up his first name (Jack) myself. The whole thing revolved around three trips to sex clubs allegedly taken by the Ryans, which were mentioned in Jeri's divorce papers. To borrow a few sentences from CNN:

"Jeri Ryan said her then-husband took her on three 'surprise trips' in the spring of 1998 to New Orleans, New York and Paris, during which he took her to sex clubs. She said she refused to go in the first and went into the second at his insistence.

'It was a bizarre club with cages, whips and other apparatus hanging from the ceiling,' she said in the court document, adding that her husband 'wanted me to have sex with him there, with another couple watching. I refused.'

She said on arriving at the third club, in Paris, 'people were having sex everywhere. I cried. I was physically ill. [He] became very upset with me and said it was not a 'turn on' for me to cry.'"

So at least two of the clubs seem to have been generic sex clubs. And the press seems to remember the whole thing with the phrase "pressured his former wife to go to sex clubs." I don't see the press or public getting very worked up about the details... I'm sure they were sorely disappointed that nothing happened.

So I view it as a generic sex scandal -- normal politician behavior which only saw the light of day because of a contested divorce -- and not something very significant to the BDSM community.

As for me, I found the whole thing very disappointing. Jeri had always played characters which were logical, strong and sexy, the whole image of her ralphing and crying in a club because she saw people having sex is, well... something which I sincerely hope was concocted by her lawyer.

< Message edited by NoCalOwner -- 11/2/2004 11:09:31 AM >

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(in reply to Thanatosian)

Post #: 24

RE: How Far We Haven't Come.... - 11/3/2004 11:56:56 AM

afmvdp

Posts: 494
Joined: 7/10/2004
Status: offline

The reality is, I would say with the results of this election undergone that even the gay/lesbian issue is merely tolerated by the majority, not accepted. They are forced into a level of tolerance under the guise of political correctness in the same way that they keep their bigotry and racism behind their closed doors. Due to those same politcal correctness issues the idea of slavery, the idea of domestic abuse is what really starts the ball of preconcieved ignorance rolling rather than the clothing. It has to be understood that their really has been no heavy motion to really push BDSM as a valid life as opposed to the gay/lesbian agenda. There haven't been this wave of star powered support groups and billionaire businessmen "coming out" in their leather. Instead most continue to be too afraid of the potential complications to be open about their desires in this. Like you said, you are afraid to go out with her on a leash, so in this case aren't you part of the problem? Because you hide your desires, others also do. If it became more common for people to be walked around the park you may see a growing trend and ending up with a slave walking around the lake group, haha. But other than maybe Angelina Jolie I can't think of any high named people who came out at all about any such lifestyle desires, and even with her it was merely a reference to something she might like to try as some "kink". It starts with the unwavering reactions of the one, and goes from there.

(in reply to NoCalOwner)

Post #: 25

RE: How Far We Haven't Come.... - 11/3/2004 12:00:31 PM

afmvdp

Posts: 494
Joined: 7/10/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: srahfox

I think BDSM is getting a little more acceptance, you do see it in tv and cartoons (Family guy.. the safeword is banana. )

Gotta say that scene really must of been written by someone in the scene considering how realistic the translation from the vanilla world into a D/s role was. hah.

(in reply to srahfox)

Post #: 26

RE: How Far We Haven't Come.... - 11/3/2004 3:06:24 PM

NoCalOwner

Posts: 241
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: afmvdp
It has to be understood that their really has been no heavy motion to really push BDSM as a valid life as opposed to the gay/lesbian agenda. There haven't been this wave of star powered support groups and billionaire businessmen "coming out" in their leather. Instead most continue to be too afraid of the potential complications to be open about their desires in this. Like you said, you are afraid to go out with her on a leash, so in this case aren't you part of the problem? Because you hide your desires, others also do. If it became more common for people to be walked around the park you may see a growing trend and ending up with a slave walking around the lake group, haha. But other than maybe Angelina Jolie I can't think of any high named people who came out at all about any such lifestyle desires, and even with her it was merely a reference to something she might like to try as some "kink".

You make an excellent point.

I agree that there has been little progress because there's been little push. I haven't been seen walking down Main with my slave on her leash because I work for government in a position which required months of background checking, etc. But I'll be permanently leaving the US soon, returning to the private sector, and regaining a higher degree of tolerance. So I don't plan on hanging out in this closet for much longer at all.

When the topic of being open about one's kink came up in the past, many here felt that it should never be visible in a context where kids, or unfavorably inclined adults, might see it. Those under 18 are about a quarter of the population (in the US and Canada), which makes them very hard to completely avoid, and since there's no way of telling what adults might object to seeing a collar or leash, that basically means eternity in the closet. Where I live now, it is not unusual to see guys wandering the daytime streets in (obviously BDSM) leather, including bondage/suspension harnesses, or in Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence drag. (For those of you who haven't had the pleasure of meeting the Sisters yet, see the pic attached.) Not to mention the occasional crossdresser, of whatever gender. Few people around here are bothered by it, and as a parent I welcome it. Only one of my kids is still young enough to be living with me, but I want him to grow up with an open mind. His mom has kept rainbow windsocks, pinwheels, etc. flying outside for longer than he can remember, and in my mind, that is exactly how things should be. Which is why it boggles my mind a bit when people get upset over the idea that a kid (or closed-minded adult) might see a collar or leash. By local standards, a collar is nothing, absolutely nothing.

Which shall it be, folks? Do we stay in the closet forever, and whine about it? Because the alternative most likely involves people seeing some collars and such. So long as we're not seen and not heard, it seems inevitable to me that we will continue to be treated as disgusting, mentally unsound perverts and second class citizens. If anyone can think of a way for things to be otherwise, by all means correct me, I'd like nothing better!

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< Message edited by NoCalOwner -- 11/3/2004 3:09:55 PM >

_____________________________

"Find more pleasure in intelligent dissent rather than passive agreement; for if you value intelligence as you should, the former implies a deeper agreement than the latter."
-- Bertrand Russell

(in reply to afmvdp)

Post #: 27

RE: How Far We Haven't Come.... - 11/3/2004 3:22:50 PM

newflowers

Posts: 292
Joined: 5/23/2004
Status: offline

quote:

Which shall it be, folks? Do we stay in the closet forever, and whine about it? Because the alternative most likely involves people seeing some collars and such. So long as we're not seen and not heard, it seems inevitable to me that we will continue to be treated as disgusting, mentally unsound perverts and second class citizens. If anyone can think of a way for things to be otherwise, by all means correct me, I'd like nothing better!

When my youngest is a few years older and dealing with a vindictive ex is not a problem - I'll be right there.

I believe that one's willingness to be "out" is completely dependent upon what one is willing to lose. In all likelihood, the morality clause in my employment contract is never going to be an issue (thank goodness I live in socal even if bush is president). However, while my ex's happiness is not an issue for me, giving him the excuse he's looked for is not a good idea.

I think it is less an issue of whining and more an issue of risking.

Homosexuality was (and still is in some countries) punishable by death. The fight for acceptance was hard fought and many personal sacrifices were made by brave people. The risk was (and sometime still is) great, but there are people willing to pay that price.

What are you willing to risk to have your BDSM nature/tendencies/inclinations publicly accepted?

newflowers

< Message edited by newflowers -- 11/3/2004 3:23:25 PM >

(in reply to NoCalOwner)

Post #: 28

RE: How Far We Haven't Come.... - 11/3/2004 3:48:31 PM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

quote:

Which shall it be, folks? Do we stay in the closet forever, and whine about it? Because the alternative most likely involves people seeing some collars and such. So long as we're not seen and not heard, it seems inevitable to me that we will continue to be treated as disgusting, mentally unsound perverts and second class citizens. If anyone can think of a way for things to be otherwise, by all means correct me, I'd like nothing better!

Well my northern neighbor, my experience in your fair city has me anxious to live as I want to in public all the time. I was very happy and content having beth at the end of my leash during the Folsom weekend. beth often wears her leather cuffs and collar around LA. But the leash is still a "pick our spots" item, like for walks along the beach, or nights out on Melrose street.

I have offered myself as a local representative for the NCSF. I told them I would love the opportunity to discuss our lifestyle issues in a public forum. I'm also considering a separate and distinct group. A more pro-active gorilla group. I've put some seed money into researching that possibility, but all I've discovered so far is that I need a LOT more seed money. Becoming a "non-profit" or "not-for-profit" political action group is an expensive proposition. I think it's worth it and will go through the process.

Finding people is harder then finding the money. Everyone is concerned about family, or business, or something. Everyone loves the idea, but doesn't love the practical. Here I draw upon beth's courage. I know my slave is very introverted and shy, yet when we attend play parties or club functions she is right out front of the activities. If she can be that proud in her public slavery I can be no less proud in public as her Master regardless of the circumstances.

So, I'm sure when things are in place I'll make some kind of announcement at CollarMe. Hopefully the Moderators would allow me to post some kind of post. I hope that the positions I've taken in these message boards don't make people think I wouldn't represent them well. But here I am, someone active in the lifestyle 24/7, Master to a live in slave, a practicing sadist, and having voted reluctently for Bush.

(in reply to NoCalOwner)

Post #: 29

RE: How Far We Haven't Come.... - 11/3/2004 10:12:18 PM

Sinergy

Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline

The Hollyweird parade simply rules.

I was, as usual, working that night :(

Sinergy

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(in reply to compes)

Post #: 30

RE: How Far We Haven't Come.... - 11/5/2004 2:40:13 AM

Thanatosian

Posts: 765
Joined: 5/10/2004
From: New Castle, PA
Status: offline

quote:

But other than maybe Angelina Jolie I can't think of any high named people who came out at all about any such lifestyle desires,

Janet Jackson also came out, asking a crowd "who out there is a bottom?" and then giggling and raising her hand

_____________________________

Apply Usual Caveats Here

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(in reply to afmvdp)

Post #: 31

RE: How Far We Haven't Come.... - 11/5/2004 9:04:22 AM

pure

Posts: 11
Joined: 8/21/2004
Status: offline

quote:

What are you willing to risk to have your BDSM nature/tendencies/inclinations publicly accepted?

newflowers

As i read this topic which i must first say thank You for very interesting read

i had to alas pause at the quote above

the whole ideal that it has to be a risk is what bothers me
i do not hide myself from family, friends, co-workers anyone....i am honest in all aspects of my life and thats what it narrows down for me this is not my lifestyle choice there is no choice in it
it is who i am and why deny or hide that?

i will just as easily wear a vinyl dress and collar and cuffs to the mall *and yes not give a f**k about the stares* as easily as to a fetish party

my playtoys are in a bag beside bed not hidden from view hell most often i am very proud to show them

my kinks are not hiden as i see no reason to hide

how can anyone be accepted or expect to be accepted if We naturally feel like this lifestyle is taboo

there is no shame in hetro, homo, bi-sexual
so why do We allow others to place some within BDSM

The only reason i feel that so much of Our lifestyle is hidden or private is because of personal choice to keep it that way

if i am speaking of my interest i do not hide or find shame in a beating and enjoyment in it
i do not hide if i just sat and watched movie curled up with my kids its all a natural thing

and in truth i have found a ABUNDANCE of positive thoughts and energy about my truth in it
i have had some obviously say "Well thats not my type of thing" and i smile and say its not for everyone but i believe if someone is
honest and does not present themselves in a manner of shame then alas no shame should be found

Naturally some will pass judgements they always do weather it is sexual orientation, religious orientation, political orientation or lifestyle orientation

Untill Society can learn that all is different and to respect everyone for who they are then we will get nowhere

*Blushes* sorry yes i am a bit idealistic...~nods and fades~

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-:Marquis DeSade:-
There are thorns everywhere, but along the path of vice, roses bloom above them.

(in reply to Thanatosian)

Post #: 32

RE: How Far We Haven't Come.... - 11/5/2004 1:29:33 PM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

Good for you pure!!

Stay 'pure' in these thoughts as well as your life activities.

(in reply to pure)

Post #: 33

RE: How Far We Haven't Come.... - 11/5/2004 2:06:35 PM

srahfox

Posts: 261
Joined: 10/17/2004
Status: offline

It cracks me up. that's really the only 'good' thing about BDSM not being an everyday thing. Everyonce in a while it shows up in some show and it's like a big private joke. There have been so many of them I wish I could remember more.
I'm not exactly in the closet about my sexuality. I believe nearly everyone I know knows I'm bi.. hell I use to walk around with my last lover all the time hand in hand. Even here in the bible belt. We had a group drive past up once and yell... Lesbians. Well, yes accually, how observent. Most of my friends know except for a small hand full. We don't hide our books or anything and eventually people notice. I'm really not ashamed or bothered buy who I am, But if it were common knowledge, my husband would no longer have a job.
Oh, and Merc, even thou i may not always agree with everything you say, I would support you and trust you to accurately show us in our best light

(in reply to afmvdp)

Post #: 34

RE: How Far We Haven't Come.... - 11/5/2004 2:17:36 PM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
Status: offline

srahfox,

quote:

Oh, and Merc, even thou i may not always agree with everything you say, I would support you and trust you to accurately show us in our best light.

lol and Thank you very much for your vote of confidence. Know too, that you and many others disagreeing with my personal political views have my respect. At least feel confident that I won't compromise.

We'll be representing tonight at a club in LA. beth's oiling up the leathers as I write this. Looking forward to "whipping up" a different kind of frenzy!

(in reply to srahfox)

Post #: 35

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