RE: Coming for the slaughter

RE: Coming for the slaughter (Full Version)

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LadyPact -> RE: Coming for the slaughter (7/7/2012 11:35:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TNDommeK Oooh, also, another question..does Leather (or people of Leather) agree with the way BDSM is practiced today? If no, what are some of the things they do not? Oh, gosh no. That's actually one of the reasons that we get such a bad rap for being elitists. LOL. Please remember what I said earlier in the thread. I'm not speaking for all leather people here. Just what I've learned in My observations and such. Leather was actually around before the term BDSM was even coined. The term BDSM really boils down to an internet term. It really came from those old Usenet forums. When Jay Wiseman did his second edition of SM101, he used it in there and acknowledged the terms popularity. You can't even find a trace of the abbreviation before the eighties. There is this concept called the generations of leather that I happen to agree with a great deal. Leather has grown and changed much like this country has grown and changed. No, we're no longer restricted to just gay men. There was a time that het chicks like Me could have never been or earned leather. Back in the day, I would have never been on the chain at all. Part of this changed because of the AIDS crisis back in the eighties when a lot of gay women stepped up and helped to care for a lot of leather people who were dying. Heterosexual people started being accepted in the nineties. Like all kinds of change, there are some that accept it and others that balk at it. That's very much true of all of these various generations of leather. For example, when protocols changed and a person's gender no longer had anything to do with where they were on the hierarchy, you can bet that some weren't very happy about it. One thing that tends to run afoul between leather and BDSM folks is the amount of education that some don't get. Way back in the leather scene, you got taught. Unsafe players would take the reputation of the club or bar down, so people were taken under wing. This is also part of the idea of the starting as an s type concept. Well, that and the bit about the experienced Masters wanting to get laid. (I never said we were angels.) Before all of this internet thing, if you wanted to learn topping skills, somebody had to teach you. It was a part of the responsibility. Same with supporting the community. That's not always the case with BDSM folks. I think those are the biggest clashes in the mindsets.

LadyPact -> RE: Coming for the slaughter (7/7/2012 11:38:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonlightmaddnes Interesting topic. I had no idea there was a leather scene. I have a couple jackets I like, and I have friends who ride motorcycles and they wear a lot of leather, but I think it is more for safety. Although one friend says in the summer especially with these heat waves it is just too hot, so she wears thick jeans without the leather covering them like she does in the winter. The deal behind that is that leather really is a more protective clothing in the event that you have to lay the bike down. Skin and asphalt really don't mix well.

LadyPact -> RE: Coming for the slaughter (7/7/2012 11:44:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: chatterbox24 Second question to LADYPACT, if she would be so kind to answer it. Does being a biker and leather even have to have a relation? Do you mean in the lifestyle sense? Now, not really. Fifty or sixty years ago, the answer would have been different. Heck, I couldn't keep a bike up in traffic if you paid Me. LOL.

WestBaySlave -> RE: Coming for the slaughter (7/7/2012 11:57:23 PM)
It strikes me from reading around that the leather scene seems to have been the largest and most organized cluster of D/s and BDSM folk, especially some decades ago where it seemed to have been almost the only one around. Do you feel it's grown or shrunk in that time, especially with the emergence of more people identifying as D/s, BDSM, Gor, "Taken In Hand", etc. and so forth as separate identities? In that vein, do you feel that leather identity has become more or less distinct over your history of involvement in it versus other D/s; BDSM scenes?

LadyPact -> RE: Coming for the slaughter (7/8/2012 12:02:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: catize Would you talk about the Discipline in leather? Is it like the military discipline or more of a punishment dynamic? I am loving this thread, I have learned a few things that aren't part of leather as well! (thanks, GreedyTop, I love learning new words!)[:D] It has been educational, hasn't it? This thread has been a win/win as far as I'm concerned. Always neat when that happens. There's really two different areas on the discipline concept. The easiest way to explain it is to discuss the difference between a ritual and a protocol. A protocol is a standard of behavior and/or the way everybody does things at formal events. A lot of this stuff was borrowed from the military, especially the way things are done regarding seniority. Rituals are the things that are dynamic specific. That's the stuff that you do in your own house that reinforce the authority structure and the bond between M and s. Punishment, for example, is only implemented if the person running the household finds it effective. There's no rule book saying that you have to use it or you can't use it. Completely up to the discretion of the parties involved. Personally, I reserve the right to punish if necessary.

LadyPact -> RE: Coming for the slaughter (7/8/2012 12:21:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucienne This was my understanding as well. In the beginning, there were motorcycle clubs. The outlaws/1%ers and the leather community grew out of those into distinct groups, so that talking about MCs in general or outlaws in particular isn't really the same conversation as talking about the leather community. Is this basically correct? LadyPact, I'm curious how you first became involved with leather. Was it a social/bdsm oriented group or was it more of motorcycle type thing? (Disclosure: I was a social member of an MC that was full of mostly lower-middle class, presumably vanilla, people interested in riding and boozing, protocol was of some importance but I rather assume that the group I was involved with had little resemblance to the sort of thing that would appeal to you in any deep way.) I was actually brought in by the person who became My first slave. Kink was already quite active on the net in the late nineties, but that wasn't My introduction. I came into a very small group that by today's standards would be more or less called underground. None of them were bikers and the only outlaw activity was beating people. Truthfully, I didn't even own a computer back then. When there was going to be a get together, you got a phone call, rather than an email. I came in at the tail end of people doing things that way, but it gave Me a good opportunity to learn more at a grass roots level.

LadyPact -> RE: Coming for the slaughter (7/8/2012 12:50:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WestBaySlave It strikes me from reading around that the leather scene seems to have been the largest and most organized cluster of D/s and BDSM folk, especially some decades ago where it seemed to have been almost the only one around. Do you feel it's grown or shrunk in that time, especially with the emergence of more people identifying as D/s, BDSM, Gor, "Taken In Hand", etc. and so forth as separate identities? In that vein, do you feel that leather identity has become more or less distinct over your history of involvement in it versus other D/s; BDSM scenes? Goodness, it's definitely grown. You're right that we're no longer the only game in town, but all of those categories that you mentioned have a greater population. As much as I bitch about the net, I can't discount the positive that it's been for kinky people of all stripes. There are more of us (no matter which "us" a person happens to belong to) than ever before. With that in mind, I think those of us who choose to identify as leather now have done so because it was a selection made after knowing the options. Yeah, I could just be kinky, but it's the protocols of leather that suit Me more. As opposed to leather being the place that you went when you didn't seem to fit in anywhere else, now it's just a different way to live. These days, I function pretty well in both the leather and the BDSM worlds. My heart is in the leather one though.

JeffBC -> RE: Coming for the slaughter (7/8/2012 7:37:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact With that in mind, I think those of us who choose to identify as leather now have done so because it was a selection made after knowing the options. *Yeah, I could just be kinky, but it's the protocols of leather that suit Me more.* As opposed to leather being the place that you went when you didn't seem to fit in anywhere else, now it's just a different way to live. Interesting... so when all is said and done, would you say it's these community-level protocols that attract you to leather (or most attract you)? It's fascinating to me that for you that's a draw. For me it's a very substantial repellent. Can you elaborate on how those protocols feed you? (and yes, I get it that it might be a chocolate/vanilla thing... no real reason)

ResidentSadist -> RE: Coming for the slaughter (7/8/2012 7:41:07 AM)
Nice thread. Glad to see you touch on so many topics in the relationship of BDSM to leather. I always have a high interest in the history and evolution of BDSM. Like anything that is culturally rich and community driven, it's good to know the course of history if your presence will be affecting the future. A little education goes a long way and respect for the past always seems to enrich the quality of the present. You give good thread, kudos to you.

slavehearttt -> RE: Coming for the slaughter (7/8/2012 10:18:01 AM)
LadyPact, thank you so much for this thread, fascinating! The way that I was taught…way back when, I "thought" was one way, but with your post...I think actually was totally something else now...wow. If you wouldn't mind, talking on the other side/mail please? I have a couple of questions, that I would prefer not to post. Thank you in advance.

TNDommeK -> RE: Coming for the slaughter (7/8/2012 10:38:57 AM)
Wow, ok. I was talking with the Hubs about our thread and he says He agrees with the Leather protocols and how things were run back then. I believe His term for what is going on today was "watered-down" and "free for all" lol. Can't say I blame Him as I think now-a-days anyone can join and claim to be a Master.

Moonlightmaddnes -> RE: Coming for the slaughter (7/8/2012 10:52:24 AM)
I thought the only leather in the nineties was worn by metal heads and their fans.[:D] Back then I was really into wearing leather, but that was because that is what my favorite bands wore. LOL quote: The deal behind that is that leather really is a more protective clothing in the event that you have to lay the bike down. Skin and asphalt really don't mix well. No. Not at all. Gravel either. My oldest got a bright idea to be towed by a go cart while he was on his bike. It was all great until they went around a corner and he wiped out. The doctor said his skin was gone all down the right side of his leg.

Salinedion -> RE: Coming for the slaughter (7/8/2012 10:56:08 AM)
How many Tom Of Finland, full on leather people are there in the United States? Do think that there are even 10,000? And back in the day, Gay leather men were very adamant about their "right" to continue in unsafe sex practices even as AIDS raged. Do you hear regret about this in your dealings with older gay leather men?

chatterbox24 -> RE: Coming for the slaughter (7/8/2012 11:00:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact quote: ORIGINAL: chatterbox24 Second question to LADYPACT, if she would be so kind to answer it. Does being a biker and leather even have to have a relation? Do you mean in the lifestyle sense? Now, not really. Fifty or sixty years ago, the answer would have been different. Heck, I couldn't keep a bike up in traffic if you paid Me. LOL. Yes this is what I meant. I used the biker episode in my question because thats where I wore leather years ago, and it was my intro to leather, and I was speaking about leather wear, not leather community. This I know nothing about. The more I think about it started much earlier, liking leather, as a kid riding horses, the smell of it and feel. I dont do much of either these days, riding bikes or horses or even wearing leather but this topic is very interesting.

LadyPact -> RE: Coming for the slaughter (7/8/2012 11:33:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JeffBC Interesting... so when all is said and done, would you say it's these community-level protocols that attract you to leather (or most attract you)? It's fascinating to me that for you that's a draw. For me it's a very substantial repellent. Can you elaborate on how those protocols feed you? (and yes, I get it that it might be a chocolate/vanilla thing... no real reason) This may sound strange coming from Me to you because all of our interactions as friends are really laid back, but I really do dig the formality of it all. Some can be considered elegant. Another big part of the attraction for Me the the mix of what certain protocols are based on. As I mentioned earlier, a number of protocols are based on seniority/time in the lifestyle as a leather person. Others are based on respecting a M/s dynamic that is already in place. Those are the ones that reinforce the recognition of yes, that person really is owned by the other person and you treat that ownership accordingly. For example, if you are at a leather event, you don't walk up to an owned slave to ask them to do something for you. Instead, you ask the person who owns the slave as a way of respecting the fact that the slave's time really does belong to the Master. A lot of people don't know it, but a lot of the dungeon rules that BDSM folks are familiar with today really do trickle down from old leather ones. Stuff like you don't touch people that don't belong to you without permission really are derivatives from leather protocols.

LadyPact -> RE: Coming for the slaughter (7/8/2012 11:35:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist Nice thread. Glad to see you touch on so many topics in the relationship of BDSM to leather. I always have a high interest in the history and evolution of BDSM. Like anything that is culturally rich and community driven, it's good to know the course of history if your presence will be affecting the future. A little education goes a long way and respect for the past always seems to enrich the quality of the present. You give good thread, kudos to you. Thank you very much, RS. That means a lot coming from you.

LadyPact -> RE: Coming for the slaughter (7/8/2012 11:38:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slavehearttt LadyPact, thank you so much for this thread, fascinating! The way that I was taught…way back when, I "thought" was one way, but with your post...I think actually was totally something else now...wow. If you wouldn't mind, talking on the other side/mail please? I have a couple of questions, that I would prefer not to post. Thank you in advance. Sure. I've had a few folks drop notes on the other side. I'll do My best to answer, if I can.

LadyPact -> RE: Coming for the slaughter (7/8/2012 11:53:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TNDommeK Wow, ok. I was talking with the Hubs about our thread and he says He agrees with the Leather protocols and how things were run back then. I believe His term for what is going on today was "watered-down" and "free for all" lol. Can't say I blame Him as I think now-a-days anyone can join and claim to be a Master. In My earlier response to WBS, I mentioned the positive effect for kinky folks that was reaped from the internet. What you are mentioning above is one of the negative aspects, in My opinion. That's part of why I'm always telling people to please become educated on the kinks they want to enjoy. Know the risks and make informed decisions.

LadyPact -> RE: Coming for the slaughter (7/8/2012 12:43:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Salinedion How many Tom Of Finland, full on leather people are there in the United States? Do think that there are even 10,000? And back in the day, Gay leather men were very adamant about their "right" to continue in unsafe sex practices even as AIDS raged. Do you hear regret about this in your dealings with older gay leather men? Not many people know the Tom of Finland reference. Kudos! Unfortunately, there's no way for Me to accurately know the number of leather folks. It's one of those statistics that I would love to know, even just for Myself. I'd be fascinated to know just how many (or few) there really are and what the demographics look like. Of course, I say the same thing when it comes to the number of kinky people there really are and what percentage they make among the population. As a guess, based on the number of leather people that I know from places I've lived across the country, and all that territory that I haven't, My best estimation would be that the number does exceed 10,000. I could very well be wrong. I have heard regrets, but I happen to think the AIDS crisis was handled very poorly in this country. They screwed that up from when they were first calling it GRID. How could anybody not think the gay population wasn't being singled out when the CDC was calling it that? Who knows how things could have been different without that particular slant? It's very hard for Me to say that it was all about the right to unsafe sex practices, rather than just the right to have sex at all. I don't think it helped to say that it was a sexual disease, rather than one that really could be transmitted from bodily fluids period. One of the areas that I'm proud of about the leather community and kinky people in general is the fact that we've really stepped up in areas such as education about disease transmission and encouraging safer sex practices. You can't go to a leather con these days and not come away without free condoms and information. I definitely see the positives that have happened.

JeffBC -> RE: Coming for the slaughter (7/8/2012 2:13:36 PM)
Thanks LadyPact... that actually made a lot of sense It's fascinating to see how something you see as comforting I find "repellent" to me and an outright threat to Carol. Wait... to be clear... I get the elegance of protocol thing. I can easily see going to a high protocol dinner and very much enjoying having Carol serve me. It's the social hierarchy business that would be the annoyance/peril.

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