RE: Coming for the slaughter

RE: Coming for the slaughter (Full Version)

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LadyPact -> RE: Coming for the slaughter (7/8/2012 2:47:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JeffBC Thanks LadyPact... that actually made a lot of sense It's fascinating to see how something you see as comforting I find "repellent" to me and an outright threat to Carol. Wait... to be clear... I get the elegance of protocol thing. I can easily see going to a high protocol dinner and very much enjoying having Carol serve me. It's the social hierarchy business that would be the annoyance/peril. From getting to know you over the years, I can definitely see this answer coming from you. I could also see Carol getting into the headspace that many s types experience doing a more formal thing, even if it was just something you did in private at home or among a small group of friends. As a question in return, why would you see it as an outright threat to Carol? Would it be because you are thinking of it in terms of the size of certain crowds at bigger events?

littlewonder -> RE: Coming for the slaughter (7/8/2012 3:11:16 PM)
quote: Stuff like you don't touch people that don't belong to you without permission really are derivatives from leather protocols. To me, this is just old fashioned common sense. You don't touch someone without their permission. You don't touch someone else's wife since she is not yours to touch. Wives were viewed as property and many traditional societies, like where I grew up, are still that way.

LadyPact -> RE: Coming for the slaughter (7/8/2012 3:18:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: chatterbox24 Yes this is what I meant. I used the biker episode in my question because thats where I wore leather years ago, and it was my intro to leather, and I was speaking about leather wear, not leather community. This I know nothing about. The more I think about it started much earlier, liking leather, as a kid riding horses, the smell of it and feel. I dont do much of either these days, riding bikes or horses or even wearing leather but this topic is very interesting. I'm glad that you and others are finding it interesting. You didn't really ask a question with this response, but since there are folks who do not know, I thought I'd take this opportunity to mention that there is a difference between those of us who identify as leather people, as opposed to those who are leather fetishists. Leather people are the folks who do the protocol/way of life thing. Leather fetishists are the folks who get the thrill from the wearing of leather, etc.

LadyPact -> RE: Coming for the slaughter (7/8/2012 3:25:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: littlewonder To me, this is just old fashioned common sense. You don't touch someone without their permission. You don't touch someone else's wife since she is not yours to touch. Wives were viewed as property and many traditional societies, like where I grew up, are still that way. You would think so, wouldn't you? I wish it was as common as you'd think, but even being here on the forums, we see that it isn't. Another one that kind of makes Me laugh are the people who get upset because a submissive has on their profile that their Dominant has to be contacted first. It always makes Me think that it's obvious those who object have never lived in the South. Anybody who has knows that for a lot of the older married couples, you don't ask the man if he can do a small bit of handy work. You ask the wife or you'll get a piece of her mind. LOL. ETA - I know you generally don't remember such things, but I really did grow up not too far from where you did.

Moonlightmaddnes -> RE: Coming for the slaughter (7/8/2012 3:41:49 PM)
quote: Leather people are the folks who do the protocol/way of life thing. I hope I do not sound to ignorant when I say I have no idea what that means. Does this actually have to do with leather or are you just calling it leather?

littlewonder -> RE: Coming for the slaughter (7/8/2012 3:47:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact quote: ORIGINAL: littlewonder To me, this is just old fashioned common sense. You don't touch someone without their permission. You don't touch someone else's wife since she is not yours to touch. Wives were viewed as property and many traditional societies, like where I grew up, are still that way. You would think so, wouldn't you? I wish it was as common as you'd think, but even being here on the forums, we see that it isn't. Another one that kind of makes Me laugh are the people who get upset because a submissive has on their profile that their Dominant has to be contacted first. It always makes Me think that it's obvious those who object have never lived in the South. Anybody who has knows that for a lot of the older married couples, you don't ask the man if he can do a small bit of handy work. You ask the wife or you'll get a piece of her mind. LOL. ETA - I know you generally don't remember such things, but I really did grow up not too far from where you did. My experience has been that those who don't know this are those who are socially awkward, have no social skills whatsoever or grew up in homes where the only thing that mattered was drugs, alcohol and violence.

LadyPact -> RE: Coming for the slaughter (7/8/2012 4:39:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonlightmaddnes I hope I do not sound to ignorant when I say I have no idea what that means. Does this actually have to do with leather or are you just calling it leather? The only time the word ignorance actually applies is when a person has a lack of education. It wouldn't be very fair for you to use that in reference to yourself if you've never had the opportunity to learn, now would it? The word leather has a lot of interpretations. Leather people are the ones that hang with the traditions of the kink world as it was when it was mainly populated by gay leathermen. Even then, we have various terms for the word leather. There's old leather, new leather, earned leather, leather protocol, and all of the other ways we use the word. Sometimes, these are things you wear. Other times, it can be 'old leather' that is passed down from a senior leather person to you, like a crop. A leather fetishist, on the other hand, basically has a kink that is just related to the material. Like any other type of fetishist, it's a sexual turn on to some degree. It could be the feel or even the smell of the material that is a huge turn on, but they don't do the protocols or the other kinds of traditions that are associated with a person in the leather lifestyle. I hope that helped.

Moonlightmaddnes -> RE: Coming for the slaughter (7/8/2012 7:38:22 PM)
yes and wow that's a lot of leather. I did not know that gays started the leather. When I saw people wearing leather it was always fellow pothead headbangers dressing like their favorite rock stars. Speaking of wearing leather though, my husband is wanting to get back into motorcycle riding. He used to but the bike breaking then kids came so he just did not ride for a while. I smiled and told him oh good we can buy some riding leathers then. He winked at me and said we would never make it to the bike. ;)

JeffBC -> RE: Coming for the slaughter (7/8/2012 9:09:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact As a question in return, why would you see it as an outright threat to Carol? Would it be because you are thinking of it in terms of the size of certain crowds at bigger events? Man I'm struggling with how to say this and not be offensive. But you gotta admit that at least some of the "senior" leather people have 30 years experience being an asshat. But protocol dictates a social hierarchy and Carol would not be able to shrug that off. Bad juju. It'd be fine if I kept her literally on a 3' leash. Anything other than that would be begging for a mess.

Marini -> RE: Coming for the slaughter (7/8/2012 9:14:19 PM)
Thank you so much for starting this thread, LadyP. I have learned so much about the Leather community. I was really fascinated about how women gained entry and acceptance into the Leather lifestyle. What an eye opener! Thanks again!

JollySadist -> RE: Coming for the slaughter (7/8/2012 10:51:41 PM)
Thanks for the thread :-) Alright. Disclaimers and background up front.. I'm not really protocol oriented, think leather is icky as a material, and don't identify as leather. There's some crossover with my friends or the kink scene, hence where my question is coming from. It's kinda like the poly community. Never really been part of it, but there's a big open window I keep walking by. QUESTION: So, due to the crossover, I've seen some people referred to as leadership in that community. What really determines that? Cuz from my own experiences outside of leather these same people fall on a pretty wide spectrum of "felony douchebaggery" v.s. "good folk". I wouldn't ask this question in real life or on the other site, because I'd be leery of people assuming which is which. @Jeff- ---- You could see the same thing happening in yer local kink community or gardening club. Unless you have a critical mass of core group willing to call someone out on bullshit, seniority/authority/leadership are gonna be pulled as trump cards. Enough people raise an eyebrow and the trump card becomes silly and comedic. A big question is whether a community has sanctions against pointing out that leadership has done something stupid. In some kink groups I've seen that to be the case; others, less so.

JeffBC -> RE: Coming for the slaughter (7/8/2012 10:56:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JollySadist @Jeff- ---- You could see the same thing happening in yer local kink community or gardening club. Unless you have a critical mass of core group willing to call someone out on bullshit, seniority/authority/leadership are gonna be pulled as trump cards. . Sure... And I'd laugh at the trump cards... Unless I'd agreed not to because of some "protocol". Then they would simply annoy me. For Carol, however, things aren't that simple.

Ishtarr -> RE: Coming for the slaughter (7/8/2012 11:31:31 PM)
Jeff, if I may be curious about this: how exactly do you expect Carol would react in situations like that? Why do you think she reacts in such a way to situations like that? And in what way do you consider that dangerous/detrimental to her wellbeing?

LadyPact -> RE: Coming for the slaughter (7/8/2012 11:42:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JollySadist Thanks for the thread :-) Alright. Disclaimers and background up front.. I'm not really protocol oriented, think leather is icky as a material, and don't identify as leather. There's some crossover with my friends or the kink scene, hence where my question is coming from. It's kinda like the poly community. Never really been part of it, but there's a big open window I keep walking by. QUESTION: So, due to the crossover, I've seen some people referred to as leadership in that community. What really determines that? Cuz from my own experiences outside of leather these same people fall on a pretty wide spectrum of "felony douchebaggery" v.s. "good folk". I wouldn't ask this question in real life or on the other site, because I'd be leery of people assuming which is which. From what I've seen, those who get referred to as leadership are the folks who are the organizers and the educators in the community. The ones that preserve our history. Others ensure that the leather lifestyle is still open for people who are being introduced to it for the first time. Others work more in the areas of social change. Leather folks are really like any other group out there. The spectrum exists for us, too. It's no different than any other example that could be thrown out there that can be associated with an identity. Personally, I've met more good people than not. Others have had the opposite experience.

MistressDarkArt -> RE: Coming for the slaughter (7/9/2012 12:01:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonlightmaddnes I smiled and told him oh good we can buy some riding leathers then. He winked at me and said we would never make it to the bike. ;) Kinda like these, ML? [:D] They're nice for SO MANY occasions! [8D]

JeffBC -> RE: Coming for the slaughter (7/9/2012 8:09:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ishtarr Jeff, if I may be curious about this: how exactly do you expect Carol would react in situations like that? Why do you think she reacts in such a way to situations like that? And in what way do you consider that dangerous/detrimental to her wellbeing? She'd submit. She'd do so because for her submission is not so much of a "choice" but just how she processes the world. It would be detrimental because the vast majority of the folks with cool leather hats really aren't clueful enough to have any business dealing with someone like her even if they have good intention.

Moonlightmaddnes -> RE: Coming for the slaughter (7/9/2012 8:36:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MistressDarkArt quote: ORIGINAL: Moonlightmaddnes I smiled and told him oh good we can buy some riding leathers then. He winked at me and said we would never make it to the bike. ;) Kinda like these, ML? [:D] They're nice for SO MANY occasions! [8D] YES! Oh no though I would never get to the bike. LOL! I could see myself saying careful of the leather, it was not cheap!

Salinedion -> RE: Coming for the slaughter (7/9/2012 9:44:55 AM)
'May as well share my few NYC LeatherMan-type thoughts from back in the day. I may not be old guard, but I sure am old guy. I worked in the adult entertainment industry 1976-80 and it gave me a little entree into the infamous bars along the West Side Highway: The Anvil, The Spike, and the accurately named Toilet. None of them were strictly leather. In fact, a guy showing up ala Village Person would cause quite a stir. LeatherMen were 99.99% confined to the pages of Drum and Honcho; it never had a heyday, at least not in the West Village. The dividing line of Leatherdom was the film Cruising (1980). Leatherdom (such as it was) was over for a fair while in NYC by then. Many gay groups protested the film because of its negative portrayal of gay life; which was to say, leather. Leather and promiscuity were firmly linked in people's minds, at least those people's who even knew of its existence. It's telling that they could have that leather Village Person and to this day, he's just assumed to be a Hell's Angel. My experience was that a lot of subbie guys were looking for a non-existent leather dominant partner and those people were most certainly prone to bad sexual decisions. Likewise, the larger Gay community was in denial about the AIDS crisis. The Village Voice ran articles defending the "Gay Culture" of bath houses and places like The Barracks on 42nd Street. Some of it was a response to Morton Downey anti-gay ranting, some it was just ignorant hedonism. Was there an enlightened, condom-wearing Leather enclave somewhere? I vote no. I remember reading in the gay press circa /74 about "Run Little Leatherboy" by Larry Townsand who apparently did very well self-publishing it. It's a dreary read, as is it's sequel called something, "Leatherboy, Run no more". That's the earliest reference I recall. A pre/proto-leather writer ('68-ish?) that is due for a revival, John Rechy, has lots of elements of the lifestyle in his novel, "City of Night" -title borrowed by The Doors, text appropriated wholesale for "Midnight Cowboy". 'Hope I haven't offended anyone. Leather can be touchier than Gorean. It's just my pervy Forest Gump at the ass-fisting perspective.

Moonlightmaddnes -> RE: Coming for the slaughter (7/9/2012 10:17:41 AM)
The time you are talking about I barely remember. The only reason I do remember any of the aids crisis in the gay community is my uncle lived in San Fransisco with his boyfriend and he got aids. There was so much fear surrounding aids that my mother would not allow me to see him at all for fear he would breathe on me and give me his disease. I was maybe 7 and only knew my uncle was in town but my mother refused to let him in the house.

Madame4a -> RE: Coming for the slaughter (7/9/2012 10:29:57 AM)
Great thread LP... as a Leather Dyke... I adore that 1) you did not in fact get crucified (Greedy notwithstanding) and 2) people seem generally curious rather than dismissive or overly critical... I made about a million comments in my head and am coming too late to this now.. but nice.. well done... and for Oside and anyone else interested.. if you have a FB acct, sign up for the Leather Archives and Museum page -- they post stuff throughout the day... leather history which I must I say I really enjoy.. particularly when an old picture of someone I know well pops up... willl also add an author recommendation... more philosophy than protocol or how-to ..but essays by Guy Baldwin are always good... Guy's insight is amazing.. and I think Ties that Bind is one of my favorite leather books...

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