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RE: sexual punishments-I just had to ask - 7/9/2012 1:16:02 PM   
littlewonder


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quote:

the sadist has to be very clear with himself as to why he's doing things.


Why would a sadist do that?? He's a sadist lol. Is Master always clear why he's doing some things? Nope. He will say things just to see how I will react or to get the reaction he wants. Doesn't always mean it's true. But it could be...I would have no way of knowing. That's why he's a sadist. I really think people have forgotten what the definition of a sadist is. lol


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RE: sexual punishments-I just had to ask - 7/9/2012 1:23:25 PM   
Moonlightmaddnes


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sadist defined.


sa·dism (sdzm, sdz-)
n.
1. The deriving of sexual gratification or the tendency to derive sexual gratification from inflicting pain or emotional abuse on others.
2. The deriving of pleasure, or the tendency to derive pleasure, from cruelty.
3. Extreme cruelty.



if you date a sadist your not gonna get a cute kitten.

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RE: sexual punishments-I just had to ask - 7/9/2012 1:24:43 PM   
littlewonder


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exactly. Thank you

<although he can be quite the cute kitty when he wants but ssshh...it'll ruin his rep. >

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RE: sexual punishments-I just had to ask - 7/9/2012 1:40:09 PM   
Moonlightmaddnes


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LOL. I know the feeling. My husband posted on facebook once, "I wonder what people think when I smile." Overall it was "dear god it is never good when you are smiling. Be afraid." Generally yes it is true but he has his cute moments. ;)

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RE: sexual punishments-I just had to ask - 7/9/2012 3:09:15 PM   
Whiplashsmile4


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I really don't understand what a big deal people make of things at times. Punishment is punishment, regardless if it's sexual or not. Hell, I'll openly admit that I've gotten turned on dishing out punishment at times. That they also got turned on by it at the same time. I have been rather compartmentalized in the past with certain things. However, I've reached a point of being extremely less compartmentalized.

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RE: sexual punishments-I just had to ask - 7/9/2012 3:32:05 PM   
imdmb


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP


quote:

ORIGINAL: imdmb
plus the added bonus of the small mind game when you wait just a little bit too long to relieve their aching arms,



In other words you're a liar. You say five minutes but really make it ten. To me mind games are for fun, not for punishment. If you do them then, it makes the other person believe you cannot be trusted and are making up punishments to get yourself off. Which makes them lose trust in you. It's either for your sexual enjoyment or it's behavior modification (assuming it works). Mixing the two requires a much stronger relationship to begin with and the sadist has to be very clear with himself as to why he's doing things.


WHO said i told them five? who said that? where is that written?

i NEVER said that i would tell them how long, im gauging how long to have them hold there arms up by when they are just about to drop the pennies, they were told to stand in the corner and think about what they did, they werent told to stand in the corner for five minutes and think about what they did

there was no time limit, there was no minimum or maximum amount of time they had to hold their arms up, they just have to hold their arms up, and when they think they are about to drop it they strain a little, i wait a few seconds so i can revel in their dilemma (by which time im able to enjoy them in some way, which means im not angry anymore), and then i relieve them from their position and allow them to calm down and tell them they are forgiven from whatever they did wrong

heres the difference, if im getting myself off then its a scene, a punishment im not really happy about because im way too angry about what they did to have to get punished. what you call funishment i call scene and if i want a scene then i dont have to make up an excuse i just call them over and start it, thats the thing about being their owner, i dont have to stand on ceremony and make up a reason to punish them just to hurt them, i get to hurt them and they are allowed to enjoy it

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RE: sexual punishments-I just had to ask - 7/9/2012 5:13:06 PM   
lilcracker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Whiplashsmile4

I really don't understand what a big deal people make of things at times. Punishment is punishment, regardless if it's sexual or not. Hell, I'll openly admit that I've gotten turned on dishing out punishment at times. That they also got turned on by it at the same time. I have been rather compartmentalized in the past with certain things. However, I've reached a point of being extremely less compartmentalized.

exactly that is how I feel most of the time

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RE: sexual punishments-I just had to ask - 7/9/2012 5:50:11 PM   
graceadieu


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Whiplashsmile4

I really don't understand what a big deal people make of things at times. Punishment is punishment, regardless if it's sexual or not. Hell, I'll openly admit that I've gotten turned on dishing out punishment at times. That they also got turned on by it at the same time. I have been rather compartmentalized in the past with certain things. However, I've reached a point of being extremely less compartmentalized.


I'm glad that works for you. Personally I've never found my Dominant's disappointment in me and the knowledge that I've failed him to be in the least arousing. But then, we don't really do much in the way of punishment. Frankly, the shame and disappointment of failure and the knowledge that I'm screwing up our relationship is more than enough of an incentive to change my behavior.

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RE: sexual punishments-I just had to ask - 7/9/2012 6:27:03 PM   
lilcracker


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grace,

I feel the same way, even if I have disappointed one of my children, my boss, a friend....even if I somehow failed myself. Guilt's a bitch.

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RE: sexual punishments-I just had to ask - 7/10/2012 12:10:34 AM   
Whiplashsmile4


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grace, I fully understand guilt. The thing is that generally just feeling guilty alone is not enough at times. Even more so with somebody literally throwing themselves at you, begging for some form of punishment out of guilt. In some ways, not dishing out punishment in itself can be rather cruel and unusual punishment for a sub/slave to go through. (hope that makes sense)...

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RE: sexual punishments-I just had to ask - 7/10/2012 1:16:18 AM   
littlewonder


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That's so absolutely true!! There have been times I've begged him because I needed absolution. There have been times where he made me beg for it even though I knew what was going to happen to me would be painful but I also hated the guilt so I could either beg for the punishment or live with the guilt....yeah, I'm going to beg for the punishment.


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RE: sexual punishments-I just had to ask - 7/10/2012 8:16:42 AM   
Kana


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See, this is the thing that most folks miss-consequences mean absolution, at least in my relationships.

She doesn't have to carry any weight for her mis-deed, she paid the toll and she can move on, free and unburdened.
Unlike nilla relationships, she never, ever has to worry about where she stands, if I'm keeping back some hidden anger or emotion, where and how she stands (or more precisely kneels)because of my stand on consequences.

She's either in the shit (Which happens rarely. It hasn't been brought up yet, but for me, there's kinda a consequences learning curve that goes on. In the beginning, as I'm getting used to her and she to me, consequences come pretty often, but that fades as she grows acclimated to my ways and structure and I learn her eccentricities. If three months in, I'm still meting out multiple punishments a month, something is way wrong, usually either I'm being imprecise or unclear in my directions or she's being unwilling.) or she's paid the price and can go forward with life, cognizant that she is bathed in the glow of my love and care.

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RE: sexual punishments-I just had to ask - 7/10/2012 5:45:02 PM   
NuevaVida


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

See, this is the thing that most folks miss-consequences mean absolution, at least in my relationships.


This used to be the case for me. I've come to a point where I can find absolution within, so consequences/punishment is more to provide something I can learn from. They're usually designed to let me see a situation in a different light.

quote:


She doesn't have to carry any weight for her mis-deed, she paid the toll and she can move on, free and unburdened.
Unlike nilla relationships, she never, ever has to worry about where she stands, if I'm keeping back some hidden anger or emotion, where and how she stands (or more precisely kneels)because of my stand on consequences.


Can you clarify the part I bolded? Do you mean unlike the nilla relationships she has experienced, or are you generalizing that all vanilla relationships are relationships in which partners don't know where each other stands? I can understand the former and would completely disagree with the latter.

quote:



She's either in the shit (Which happens rarely. It hasn't been brought up yet, but for me, there's kinda a consequences learning curve that goes on. In the beginning, as I'm getting used to her and she to me, consequences come pretty often, but that fades as she grows acclimated to my ways and structure and I learn her eccentricities. If three months in, I'm still meting out multiple punishments a month, something is way wrong, usually either I'm being imprecise or unclear in my directions or she's being unwilling.) or she's paid the price and can go forward with life, cognizant that she is bathed in the glow of my love and care.

Cool, and this is another cool example of how what works awesomely for some wouldn't work for others. I think if I were dealing with regular consequences at the beginning, I'd find myself in a mismatch and leave. But that's from my own history - I'd end up feeling like a slug and a failure and would not want to be in a relationship that made me feel that way.

Regardless, with the thread being about sexual punishment....I can see where certain sexual punishments might give some people hang-ups, as sex can be such an intimate and influential subject for some. I've had sexual consequences/punishment with no ill effect on my sexual feelings and responses. It's just like some folks saying you should not use a "play" implement for punishment - that's never been an issue with me, either. But I understand how it can be for others.

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RE: sexual punishments-I just had to ask - 7/10/2012 8:44:55 PM   
mons


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Kana

She must love to you until the end of time, yes it is something to envy!

This crazy love you two have hey if your ok and she is ok I can not say it is wrong!

But my trust level is low as it can get this is why I am the dominant!


It is possible someone so young can be a dominant?

I do not mean to embarrass you imbm you are young, but I guess it could happen!
mons


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RE: sexual punishments-I just had to ask - 7/10/2012 9:13:47 PM   
DesFIP


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana


Unlike nilla relationships, she never, ever has to worry about where she stands, if I'm keeping back some hidden anger or emotion, where and how she stands (or more precisely kneels)because of my stand on consequences.

[/unquote]

So just because it's a power relationship everybody magically fights fair and never brings things up from six months ago? Hardly.

Nor, for that matter do all vanillas have dysfunctional relationships.

It has nothing to do with the relationship model and everything to do with the individuals and how much work they've done on themselves to learn healthier ways of relating.

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RE: sexual punishments-I just had to ask - 7/10/2012 10:31:51 PM   
catize


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quote:


So just because it's a power relationship everybody magically fights fair and never brings things up from six months ago? Hardly.

Nor, for that matter do all vanillas have dysfunctional relationships.

It has nothing to do with the relationship model and everything to do with the individuals and how much work they've done on themselves to learn healthier ways of relating. 

QFT


All the disclaimers apply here; my opinion, my thoughts, the way things work for me, etc. etc.
In general:
A punishment dynamic is a hard (read immutable) limit for me.
I do my best, and if I fuck up, as all humans are wont to do, then all that should be expected of me is that I am truly sorry, I apologize, and work on not ever doing it again.
Punishment is one of the things in D/s that I just don't GET (not that I have to get it for it to work for others, but there it is.) I just keep thinking how very juvenile it is, to have a relationship where one person is considered so immature that they can't be good, or improve, or learn,without the more(?) adult person in the dynamic doling out punishment.
I also don't understand the need for absolution. As NuevaVida says, my atonement comes from within when I take responsibility for whatever it was that upset him. 
And ya know what? He fucks up sometimes as well; he apologizes, and we move on. He doesn't need to be smacked around, stood in the corner, given writing assignments to feel he is forgiven, and neither do I. As a cognizant adult I am quite able to see where I made my mistake, and alter my behavior or thinking so that our lives run more smoothly. If he thought differently, then we certainly would not be compatible.
About a year ago, we (one of the dominants in my life and I) had this huge, nasty fight that lasted several days. Neither one of us was right, we were both immature dolts. We came to the conclusion together that we both needed to get over ourselves, we kissed, laughed and dropped it. It was just that easy.
In my opinion, that is the way adults do stuff; each person strives to be their best with and for the other; you hash out problems with communication, the person who was in the wrong takes responsibility and apologizes. The wronged person forgives. Cue mushy music and they walk together hand in hand into the sunset.
Regarding the topic of 'sexual' punishment
If I thought he was aroused by the fact of punishment, that is what I would concentrate on rather than learn any lesson he was trying to teach. What would keep me from believing my 'mistake' wasn't made larger in his mind just so he could satisfy himself sexually? Where is the trust in that? If that happened I would 'punish' him by walking out, the relationship would be over and done. And if I did something unforgiveable, I would expect him to walk away from me.

< Message edited by catize -- 7/10/2012 10:35:04 PM >


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RE: sexual punishments-I just had to ask - 7/10/2012 10:39:26 PM   
Kana


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OK, OK, teach me to make specious generalizations and paint with a broad brush-I should have said Many vanilla relationships.
The reason I say this is because the way our TPE is run there's no need to hold anything back. If I have an issue with something it's straight out put on the table and promptly dealt with.
Why wouldn't it be?
She's my slave. I own her. So there's no need to let anything fester.
This has the happy side effect that she always knows exactly where she stands. 99.99% of the time I'm delighted with her...and she knows it.
How?
She ain't getting a consequence.
When I'm displeased she is either receiving a consequence or in that awful, awful period between screwing up and receiving absolution.
But there's no ambiguity.
She doesn't have to wonder how I feel, where she stands, if I'm holding anything back-instead she can be absolutely confident that she stands in my good graces and that all is wonderful with us.
Which is cool...and it allows for an amazing freedom and sharing within the dynamic.

In contrast, I don't see this wide openness in a lot of nilla relationships. I always have friends who wonder (I'm that advice guy-you know, we all have that buddy everyone asks for feedback, gets guidance from-that's me. Don't know why I am, or exactly HTF I got the job, but that's one of the roles in my life, it seems) how their spouse/partner feels, speculate on what's going on with the other, aren't sure of exactly what ground they stand on...with resultant nueuroticisms, insecurities and occasionally downright odd behaviors/arguments.

3 side comments
1-Mons-maybe its not just that she loves me so much, but that I love her equally in return that drives that trust you miss.
2-In case anyone is wondering, or thinks I am biased, I come from a great family with parents who have a spectacular relationship-as in I've never heard em raise their voices in anger at each other, they walk though life together, they are best friends, soul mates, partners and basically made for each other...and my siblings are equally great.
3-Lets be very very clear here. I hate the concept of punishment. When I do mete out consequences it ain't a fun thing, for me or her. It disturbs our dynamic, interrupts the flow of my wa and leaves us both with emotional hangovers, which are no fucking fun.
I don't understand the obsession with punishment or why anyone would want it to be a big part of their scene.

But at the same time, these things are necessary.
I liken it to oiling a gun or tuning up a car or another piece of fine machinery. If I have this thing and don't regularly maintain it, it's gonna no longer work at tiptop 100% efficiency. But if I do the regular work, it's gonna serve me well for a long time, operating as intended, performing the functions that I got it for.
She's the same way.
Using consequences keeps things in line, prevents deviations, makes sure things remain on course.
Or, if you would prefer a different analogy, it's kinda like being at work. We all have a boss (Even self employed folks work for someone-that's who pays the bills) who has many roles, but one of his foremost purposes is to maximize efficiency and output while making sure all company guidelines and standards are met.
They do this through a regular system of rewards and consequences.
You know, like economists say all people are motivated.
So think of these things as routine maintenance instead of something horrific-Kana taking good care of his most valued possession.

Chortles

In fact, I can make a real strong argument that by laying out consequences, doing the little things to keep our relationship on track I am investing in her as well as us, and demonstrating my great love and affection for her by doing so.
So in a weird roundabout way, the best way for me to show my affection is to hold her feet to the fire, to help her be the best woman, slave and person that she can be...and failure to do so is me failing her at the basest levels.
Kinda like that asshole teacher you hated so much, who returned your papers over and over, demanding (The gall) that you reach your highest potential and not skimp on self-you know, that coach you loathed then and thank now, the one who taught you more, better, than anyone else
But hey, that's JMHO and all.

< Message edited by Kana -- 7/10/2012 10:53:34 PM >


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RE: sexual punishments-I just had to ask - 7/10/2012 10:50:22 PM   
littlewonder


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quote:

So just because it's a power relationship everybody magically fights fair and never brings things up from six months ago? Hardly.


Well, we've been together for 6 years and we have yet to ever do that. Not even once.We talk it out and then we move on and it's never brought up again.

I think we've maybe had 2 arguments during our relationship which lasted maybe a day, if that. Both times was from a miscommunication.


< Message edited by littlewonder -- 7/10/2012 10:56:57 PM >


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RE: sexual punishments-I just had to ask - 7/10/2012 11:20:27 PM   
AthenaSurrenders


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-fr-
Disturbing how often I seem to be agreeing with scary Kana lately.

quote:

So just because it's a power relationship everybody magically fights fair and never brings things up from six months ago? Hardly.

Nor, for that matter do all vanillas have dysfunctional relationships.

It has nothing to do with the relationship model and everything to do with the individuals and how much work they've done on themselves to learn healthier ways of relating.


For me 'fighting fair' is a prerequisite of a power exchange relationship, not a result of it. I have had the type of relationship in which past disagreements and mistakes are raked over again and again, and I wouldn't tolerate that. I can have a power exchange relationship with my husband because I know that won't happen. If the power went away, we would still be reasonable with each other.

quote:

Punishment is one of the things in D/s that I just don't GET (not that I have to get it for it to work for others, but there it is.) I just keep thinking how very juvenile it is, to have a relationship where one person is considered so immature that they can't be good, or improve, or learn,without the more(?) adult person in the dynamic doling out punishment.
I also don't understand the need for absolution. As NuevaVida says, my atonement comes from within when I take responsibility for whatever it was that upset him.
And ya know what? He fucks up sometimes as well; he apologizes, and we move on. He doesn't need to be smacked around, stood in the corner, given writing assignments to feel he is forgiven, and neither do I. As a cognizant adult I am quite able to see where I made my mistake, and alter my behavior or thinking so that our lives run more smoothly. If he thought differently, then we certainly would not be compatible.


I find I have to make sense of much of these discussions by asking myself 'what if we were vanilla?' and I'm convinced that most things would be the same. If I disobey or displease we discuss it like grown ups, we both talk calmly and look for a resolution, we have hugs and cuddles, just as we do when he does something that upsets me (which is rare since we don't have much conflict in our relationship). Because we use punishment doesn't mean that I am incapable of personal growth or conflict resolution without it.

I suppose you could say that punishment is one of the few rituals we take place in. It formalizes the process. The transgression is behind us and the punishment draws a line under it. For me it provides reassurance that I am worth the work it takes to correct me. I like being held to high standards because that shows he thinks I am capable of upholding them - and consequences for failure are a part of that for us. I have said before we are very low protocol, I rarely address him as Master, I don't kneel in a certain position or sleep a certain way or do many of the other rituals a lot of other couples have in place, but this is one that works to keep us both focused on the relationship.

Absolution - I'll admit to being an anxious and emotional person. Punishment helps me reign that in. As in, yes I've been bad, but he's dealt with it now so I can let go. Is that emotionally healthy? Perhaps not, but it's not the end of the world either since I have a partner happy to meet that need.

If he gets aroused, that's fine by me. He doesn't need to invent reasons to punish but he can still enjoy the physical act and/or enforcing the dynamic which brings us both such fulfillment. He's not such a monster that his arousal rules him and causes him to be a jackass for fun.

This says it:

quote:

In fact, I can make a real strong argument that by laying out consequences, doing the little things to keep our relationship on track I am investing in her as well as us, and demonstrating my great love and affection for her by doing so.
So in a weird roundabout way, the best way for me to show my affection is to hold her feet to the fire, to help her be the best woman, slave and person that she can be...and failure to do so is me failing her at the basest levels.



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RE: sexual punishments-I just had to ask - 7/11/2012 4:58:03 AM   
catize


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I understand consequences; positive or negative results of my actions or words. But your work analogy still doesn't convince me. I am fairly autonomous at work, I arrive on time and do my job because it is what I have agreed to do, not because I am afraid of getting fired. I am good at what I do because I take pride in my work.
If I screw up at work, most of the time I am aware of what I did wrong and strive to fix it. If I was not aware, I would be given a verbal warning and then, if it happened again, a written warning along with an action plan to help me get where they want me to be. Getting fired (punished) is not the default consequence.
I am the same way in my D/s relationship(s). I strive to do my best and if he is unhappy with my efforts I would expect him to tell me what I need to do to make him smile instead of frown


And I do agree with and appreciate this:
quote:

3-Lets be very very clear here. I hate the concept of punishment. When I do mete out consequences it ain't a fun thing, for me or her. It disturbs our dynamic, interrupts the flow of my wa and leaves us both with emotional hangovers, which are no fucking fun.
I don't understand the obsession with punishment or why anyone would want it to be a big part of their scene.

Too many threads on punishment are written with an almost maniacal glee; punishment should never be seen as anything but a difficult, sad, and unhappy episode within the relationship.

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(in reply to Kana)
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