RE: Maybe I'm not submissive, just confused (Full Version)

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sexyred1 -> RE: Maybe I'm not submissive, just confused (7/14/2012 10:47:16 PM)

It does not matter if you are submissive. You are letting someone treat you in a manner that you are unhappy with.

When someone treats you badly the first time, it is their fault.

If they continue to do so for 8 months or 8 years, it is your fault.

You cannot make someone do anything they don't want to do.

It is very hard to walk away from someone you love who is toxic to you, but you have to find the strength.



DsPet -> RE: Maybe I'm not submissive, just confused (7/15/2012 7:48:06 AM)

Master and I had a long talk last night and I shared my concerns. He states he wants a complete relationship and wants to work on that. However, at 1:00 a.m., after we had talked for a while, he summoned me to come to him. I thought I wouldn't be seeing him because his daughter was there. Apparently she was at a sleepover. I asked him when he knew he would have a free night and he said 6 pm. I was stunned! I told him it hurt that he would not contact me immediately in order to spend time with him. If his purpose for waiting was merely to see if I would obey and come when bidden, he didn't need to do that. I've proven in the past that I will come when he calls even though I live an hour from him. I told him his actions belay his words: a man wanting a complete relationship would have called immediately to arrange time together since we get precious little. This time I was defiant and said I would not come. I told him if he had to discipline me for it, okay, but I was hurt and could not be with him.

For clarification, we have broken up 4 times in 8 months, all at my instigation. I've always gone back and this time was when we decided to make the D/s relationship our focus. It seems to have brought him closer to me but I don't know if that's simply because he's reveling in his role and wants to keep it.

No less confused, I'm afraid.



AthenaSurrenders -> RE: Maybe I'm not submissive, just confused (7/15/2012 7:51:37 AM)

Sounds to me he is telling you what you want to hear. He's getting his needs met at the moment - sex when he wants it and not having to bother with you the rest of the time. He will tell you whatever he needs to say so that you don't put a stop to that.

Calling someone at 1am to drive an hour to your house still sounds like a booty call to me.



lizi -> RE: Maybe I'm not submissive, just confused (7/15/2012 9:03:27 AM)

You said in the beginning he was never sure he wanted more than companionship. You however want long term, perhaps marriage. Complete mismatch here from the start that has never been resolved because even though now he says he 'wants to work' on a complete relationship....what's he been doing for 8 months then besides keeping you on a string?

He didn't want you around all night till he asked you up for a booty call at 1am - you didn't go, but the fact that he didn't make time for you before then is very telling. So he's offering you a token to keep you around after you guys talk, that's when he sees that he needs to up the ante a bit. He's not putting forth any effort most of the time, and then puts forth whatever minimal thing is needed to keep you in play. He's really not interested in keeping you happy- why do you want a complete relationship with someone this selfish who isn't looking at you at all?

You're using D/s as an excuse to let this man treat you poorly and it shouldn't be that way. The words and phrases you use all sound like a game, like you are both playing roles. D/s relationships are just relationships, they don't operate under such different 'rules' where one person consistently gets taken advantage of when they don't want to be. You obey and come when bidden? Huh? Why would you obey someone who treats you so badly when you don't get anything out of it? He's not leading you onto bigger and better things, he's not taking care of you emotionally or otherwise, he's not in control - he's a selfish man who is keeping you a secret and wants you on the side and likes it that way - he sees no reason to change because he isn't. Even after your big talk, his response was to give you yet another bootycall.

Why in the world would you let someone discipline you for letting them know they were acting like a dick? Where does an idea like that even come from?

You've consistently broken up with the guy because this isn't what you want in the long run and then you settle and go back for more of the same old stuff. Why do you think he will change? Putting a new name on things overall and also calling him Master doesn't mean the man is any different. He likes things the way they are, you can sign up for more of that and let go of your own needs and wants for the future, or you can move on. He's being truthful with you and showing you exactly what he's capable of - it's up to you to decide if it suits you or not. For me, I'd have kicked his selfish ass to the curb long ago and found someone that introduces me to his family, who listens carefully to my input, and then incorporates it into OUR lives.



ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Maybe I'm not submissive, just confused (7/15/2012 9:06:13 AM)

Thank you for the clarification, DsPet, this is helpful. I am going to give you some advice which I hope you think about carefully.

First, what you have in this relationship is what I like to call a non-reciprocal level of commitment. In other words, you are committed, he is not (or at least can't vocalize it, which becomes the same thing).

Having an uneven level of commitment in the relationship always leaves BOTH parties unhappy. You, because you want what you want, and him, b/c he may very well feel you pushing, and that does not make him feel closer to you.

So what do you do about it? Sure you could just leave. But if you truly feel the relationship is worth saving, this is what you should do.

DO NOT under any circumstances present this man with an ultimatum. Men in general don't like that and doms in particular.

Back off from him emotionally. What does this mean? Start to build a little wall over your emotions. Call him less, see him less, be less available. Start doing what you would be doing if you were single, in terms of hobbies, etc. (I DO NOT mean cheat.) I mean begin to prepare yourself emotionally for the fact that what he is giving is all he can do for you.



DO NOT under any circumstances press this, get angry, or anything else, just back the fuck off in a fairly major way with a big cheerful smile on your face. Slowing begin getting your life back to how it was before him.

One of two things is going to happen if you successfully back off: he will feel noticeably relieved that you are no longer so close to his comfort zone. This tells you it's all he can give. And you already know it's not enough for you, so you continue backing off. BTW: Please no recriminations or angry words, he can't give you what you need, it's not his fault (or if it is, that on HIM, not you.)

The other thing that will happen is that he will notice it. You ignore that. YOU DO NOT under any circumstances engage him in a conversation about it. You keep smiling and keep backing off until he decides you have to talk about it. This means he may want more, may be willing to give more, but does not know how to go about it, needs some reassurance from you, whatever. Try to listen and NOT TALK ABOUT WHAT YOU NEED. Listen to him first. Then tell him you have some stuff too, but need time to reflect. Take a week or two for you both to do that. You may want to spend this time journaling (Actually start doing that when you start backing off, if you feel it helps.)


When you get together to talk again (try to wait til he wants to do this) make sure you are clear about what you want. Again, no angry words or recriminations. Simple statements like "that I do not know your family makes me feel like I am not a real part of your life" will give him an idea of what is going on with you w/o turning the discussion into an argument.

Be kind, be compassionate, realize he has his side to things. See how far you get with this. You may be pleasantly surprised. You may realize that the two of you don't communicate about your deeper feelings well. You may bond as a couple to determine how to go about that. You may decide it just won't work.

Best of luck with this. One last piece of advice: There is little use to talk to a (potential) partner about your deeper feelings unless THEY wants to listen. So back off until they might want to listen.












kalikshama -> RE: Maybe I'm not submissive, just confused (7/15/2012 10:28:57 AM)

quote:

However, at 1:00 a.m., after we had talked for a while, he summoned me to come to him. I thought I wouldn't be seeing him because his daughter was there. Apparently she was at a sleepover. I asked him when he knew he would have a free night and he said 6 pm.


How many more times does he have to demonstrate to you that you are a second thought to him before his message sinks in?



kalikshama -> RE: Maybe I'm not submissive, just confused (7/15/2012 10:30:29 AM)

quote:

Why in the world would you let someone discipline you for letting them know they were acting like a dick? Where does an idea like that even come from?


[sm=agree.gif][sm=goodpost.gif]



CeriseNin -> RE: Maybe I'm not submissive, just confused (7/15/2012 10:43:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AthenaSurrenders

Sounds to me he is telling you what you want to hear. He's getting his needs met at the moment - sex when he wants it and not having to bother with you the rest of the time. He will tell you whatever he needs to say so that you don't put a stop to that.

Calling someone at 1am to drive an hour to your house still sounds like a booty call to me.

Yes. This.

If it were me, I'd cut my losses.



DsPet -> RE: Maybe I'm not submissive, just confused (7/15/2012 10:49:35 AM)

Thank you ChatteParfait. I really appreciate the sage advice. That does sound like a sensible way to approach this. I am especially thankful for the reminder that if he can't give me what I need, that's not his fault. I chose over and over again to be in this relationship even after being told and shown multiple times that he has given as much as he can give. To be clear, when we first met online his profile said he wanted companionship. He contacted me several times and I didn't respond because of what he said he was looking for. Finally I responded and told him I wanted long term and commitment. At that time he reassured me that he was definitely open to that. And that was probably the start of him telling me what he though I needed to hear.

It's no easy backing away from someone you care so much about. However, I can't continue with a relationship that doesn't fulfill my needs. I will take Chatte's advice and back off and see what happens.

Thanks again.



ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Maybe I'm not submissive, just confused (7/15/2012 11:58:34 AM)

Backing off will be very hard for you, but it will help to listen to what some others have said here as well. Try to look at him from another point of view, as someone who appreciates you as a booty call and is willing to say what you want to hear to get that with minimal emotional strings attached.

Don't say anything to him, but watch him, watch what he does, not what he says. Intellectually you know things aren't right (that's why you posted), but you need to get there emotionally and I think this backing off will help.

Who knows? He may surprise you. But he probably won't -- in which case you will be far more emotionally prepared to cut your losses.






JeffBC -> RE: Maybe I'm not submissive, just confused (7/15/2012 12:07:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DsPet
Master and I had a long talk last night and I shared my concerns. He states he wants a complete relationship and wants to work on that.

And how long has this been again? 8 months? I gotta tell you that most people are highly motivated to "work on a complete relationship" simply by the fact that "they love the relationship which is why they got together." If it's just occurred to him now that perhaps he ought to think about "the relationship" then it was never a priority to him and likely won't ever be.

However, at 1:00 a.m., after we had talked for a while, he summoned me to come to him. I thought I wouldn't be seeing him because his daughter was there. Apparently she was at a sleepover. I asked him when he knew he would have a free night and he said 6 pm. I was stunned! I told him it hurt that he would not contact me immediately in order to spend time with him.
And your reasoning is perfectly valid. Lord knows that on the rare occasions when I have limited time with Carol then a moment that we can share together becomes a precious thing. It took your master 7 hours to decide that maybe he wanted your company. Again, without casting judgement on him, I think this shows his priorities quite clearly. If he really, really, really, really craved your company then it would have taken 2 seconds.

If his purpose for waiting was merely to see if I would obey and come when bidden, he didn't need to do that. I've proven in the past that I will come when he calls even though I live an hour from him. I told him his actions belay his words: a man wanting a complete relationship would have called immediately to arrange time together since we get precious little. This time I was defiant and said I would not come.
Well, actually you're wrong. Apparently he DID need to test you. And you did not obey. I think the question you ought to be pondering quite closely is "who's fault is that?" At least in my neck of the woods the buck stops on my desk. I got no sympathy for this guy and I don't fault you for disobeying.

I told him if he had to discipline me for it, okay, but I was hurt and could not be with him.
But I DO fault you for that. You'd let him discipline you? May I ask why? Seriously... why? Because you promised something or the other? This is exactly why I dislike the "D/s by agreement" model. Look, the guy is not worthy... not in your eyes or a lot of our eyes. Perhaps you ought to consider finding some guy who IS worthy and then worry about discipline?

For clarification, we have broken up 4 times in 8 months, all at my instigation. I've always gone back and this time was when we decided to make the D/s relationship our focus. It seems to have brought him closer to me but I don't know if that's simply because he's reveling in his role and wants to keep it.
Nothing wrong with revelling in the role. Hey, I love carol to the ends of my toes but I still revel in my role as her owner. I also revel in her role as my sex toy. But in the end, she is so, so, so much more than simply "property" or a "sex toy" to me... which is exactly why she's fine with being those things.

When you say "we decided to make the D/s relationship our focus" that sounds counter to your needs. I'm guessing that "he decided" and "you complied". I'd reconsider your compliance on that one. And I gotta tell you that if I was him and I actually wanted to keep you then I would be putting a moratorium on all this D/s crap until I could get the crumbling foundation better under control. I'd be "summoning" you at 6:00pm so we could go to some scenic spot and watch the sun set with ice cream cones in our hands. And we'd be doing a lot of talking about this relationship thingie because... you know... if I actually had any serious intent to implement a relationship I'd need to talk to you to figure out how you saw such a thing, neh? Of course, if I had no such intent then there'd be no need to discuss it just as there'd be no need for sunsets and ice cream.

No less confused, I'm afraid.
You're not confused but you are afraid. Being afraid of reality is never a percentage play because reality is going to ignore you anyway.



DsPet -> RE: Maybe I'm not submissive, just confused (7/15/2012 4:46:13 PM)

I've read all your responses over again and it's finally sinking in. It was helpful having people in the lifestyle to talk about because my vanilla friends would never understand. I guess I thought explaining the relationship here would give me something to hold onto but your responses are exactly what I've been hearing all along.

I clearly have some thinking to do.




AthenaSurrenders -> RE: Maybe I'm not submissive, just confused (7/15/2012 11:19:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DsPet

I've read all your responses over again and it's finally sinking in. It was helpful having people in the lifestyle to talk about because my vanilla friends would never understand. I guess I thought explaining the relationship here would give me something to hold onto but your responses are exactly what I've been hearing all along.

I clearly have some thinking to do.





I'm really glad this thread has helped you make sense of things, but don't think of this as a 'lifestyle' problem. This guy is out for what he can get. He was already out for what he could get before the D/s even came up and continued to act the same way afterwards. He would be behaving the same way if you weren't a sub.

Don't let this one guy put you off exploring future D/s relationships if you want to. There are losers in every section of society. At the end of the day a D/s relationship is still a relationship and can fall prey to the same problems as any vanilla one.



angelikaJ -> RE: Maybe I'm not submissive, just confused (7/16/2012 6:03:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DsPet

Master and I had a long talk last night and I shared my concerns. He states he wants a complete relationship and wants to work on that. However, at 1:00 a.m., after we had talked for a while, he summoned me to come to him. I thought I wouldn't be seeing him because his daughter was there. Apparently she was at a sleepover. I asked him when he knew he would have a free night and he said 6 pm. I was stunned! I told him it hurt that he would not contact me immediately in order to spend time with him. If his purpose for waiting was merely to see if I would obey and come when bidden, he didn't need to do that. I've proven in the past that I will come when he calls even though I live an hour from him. I told him his actions belay his words: a man wanting a complete relationship would have called immediately to arrange time together since we get precious little. This time I was defiant and said I would not come. I told him if he had to discipline me for it, okay, but I was hurt and could not be with him.

For clarification, we have broken up 4 times in 8 months, all at my instigation. I've always gone back and this time was when we decided to make the D/s relationship our focus. It seems to have brought him closer to me but I don't know if that's simply because he's reveling in his role and wants to keep it.

No less confused, I'm afraid.


I have a different opinion than the majority regarding the part bolded above.

Sometimes people *DO* need alone time.

I fully understand your feeling hurt but the thing is: you did not ask him why he did not request your presence before... at least that is how I read it.
I read it as: you and he were having an emotional conversation and he expressed wanting what you wanted and then desired some closeness with you.

One can have a "full relationship" with someone and it not be 24/7.
For me, quality of time is much more important than quantity (although in my relationship I am fortunate to have both- quality of time and a regular schedule with extra days thrown in and His being there for emergencies: tree falling on house, emergency surgery when He was admittedly way outside of his comfort zone; I know I am important to Him.)

Since you have caused the relationship to be on-again off again, you might want to think about something: how secure would your master feel about putting more of himself in when you keep taking yourself out?
Guys worry about being hurt too.

I am not at all suggesting that the other perspectives are wrong.
I am suggesting that there is more than one way to look at this, and if you have been vague about what you want ("a full relationship" is non-specific), then you can't possibly expect someone else to meet that need.




Salinedion -> RE: Maybe I'm not submissive, just confused (7/16/2012 12:35:47 PM)

......The other guy, the one telling you what a natural submissive you are, also wants a little skepticism too......



Missokyst -> RE: Maybe I'm not submissive, just confused (7/17/2012 8:14:56 AM)

Oh man... I have seen way too many guys who as it turned out, say they are dom and give the line about how they recognize submissive tendencies in someone. Personally, I find that to be a line of BS. Whether or not it is true, it is a darned handy line to use to get into someones panties. Just wanting to make someone happy, even above your self does not make you a submissive. It makes it early into a relationship. People do that stuff when starting to get serious about another. Your other guy.. the master, may say he is in love but who is he in love with? You.. or him? Right now it looks like you have been a fairly easy booty call. A few dinners, no real dating, and a lot more nights at your place with you providing food, drink and entertainment. He doesn't want you in his regular life? Seems pretty cut and dried to me, he is not that into you.
I'd dump him before I got in any deeper, and take it as a lesson.


quote:

ORIGINAL: DsPet
He was very helpful in talking to me about my relationship and, as it turned out, he was a Dom. He said he recognized sub tendencies in me. Namely, I revealed to him that in this on and off relationship, I had never felt so deeply in love with someone. That all my pleasure came from seeing him happy and content. I had never in my life put someone else's needs above my own, except with my children. It was very new to me and a little unsettling. My friend suggested that I might be a natural submissive.



Bhruic -> RE: Maybe I'm not submissive, just confused (7/17/2012 1:32:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DsPet

I'll try to keep this brief.... [snip]

If anyone has any thoughts or experience with relationship-specific submission, I could really use your advice. Thanks!


Forgive me if this offends, but it sounds to me like you are using your submission as a means to try and buy his love and commitment. Control is a powerful aphrodisiac and I have known people in my life who give it (or more usually pretend to give it) for self serving reasons.

To me your post reads like this:

I'm in love with a man who doesn't want me. I offered him my submission in exchange for his love. He took the submission and passed on the love. I realize I don't actually like submission. I'm unhappy.

A bit harsh perhaps, but that is essentially how it reads. It is no wonder you are unhappy. If you really want advice, here's mine. Love comes first, THEN submission... and rarely the other way around. Power struggles are the defining characteristic of all relationships, and D/s can really muddy the water if you are already confused.

Value yourself and move on to a man who will love you first.



DsPet -> RE: Maybe I'm not submissive, just confused (7/23/2012 9:58:45 AM)

I'm not offended and I don't think that's harsh. I think you're absolutely right. I'm a pleaser but not a submissive and I was trying to offer him something in exchange for love. I thought he loved me (love first, submission second) but he didn't. He was willing to walk when I insisted on commitment (sans submission) but was readily available when submission entered the picture. It wasn't something he ever asked for, just something I sensed about him and used to bring him back.

I am moving on and looking for the kind of relationship I can be proud of -- one that includes love.



ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Maybe I'm not submissive, just confused (7/23/2012 10:25:29 AM)

May I ask, what exactly makes you think you're not submissive?

I don't recall anyone telling you that (not that you should rely on stranger son the internet).

That this guy you became involved with is a piss poor dominant does not mean you are not submissive.

Have you seen RS's (Resident Sadist) book list? I think you would benefit from much more info about dominance and submission than what you currently appear to have.









DsPet -> RE: Maybe I'm not submissive, just confused (7/23/2012 11:32:17 AM)

I'm not a submissive because there's very little about it that I enjoy. I think it's degrading. I'm not judging, I'm just saying that for me it's not the right lifestyle.



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