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ORIGINAL: Brutalessons

Greetings Cm.

While I am relatively new to CM and have been enjoying the interactions, both from the interactions with various subs on Cmail and in browsing here on the message board, a strange, and to Me disturbing concept has been brought up... that it is A subs fault that she "failed".

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To Me as a Dom, I take responsibility for my sub, Claim their successes and growth with deserved pride and Failures... disappointments... how can such not be laid to rest upon My own feet as well? It is I who guide her so if there is a failure, whether it is in achieving a goal or performing a task, or simply meeting My needs it is more of a reflection on My own failure to properly instill, encourage or provide incentive to Meet My expectations.

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Running into a situation where a sub has been "released" or told they are the Cause of a failed D/s one time can be an anomaly but I have had very similar conversations with no less than 4 subs in the past weeks who have expressed this concept. Is it Me who is seeing this in the wrong light? Is not your sub a reflection of your own skill and Mastery?

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If you push to soon, or hold back when a push was needed, if you fail to "read" her signals correctly, or give her the wrong ones and she responds as trained... how is it possible, in good conscience to view it as anything but a failing of your Own responsibility. Yes am aware of how emotionally shattering the concept of disappointing Me can be for my sub.... but to lay the Onus on her when she is shattered .... I a sorry, I just do not comprehend that mental process that thinks this is acceptable.

Thought and feedback are welcome.

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ORIGINAL: Brutalessons

Greetings Cm.

While I am relatively new to CM and have been enjoying the interactions, both from the interactions with various subs on Cmail and in browsing here on the message board, a strange, and to Me disturbing concept has been brought up... that it is A subs fault that she "failed".



Failed in what? There are lots of things in life you can fail at - And Brutalessons - whether you call yourself Master, Dom, Top, bottom, slave, sub - everyone fails at something - hell people fail at many many many things during their lifetime. So Im not sure why that is so disturbing to you. Its a fact of life.

First, thanks for the response and for parsing it as you did, will try to be clearer in My response. In this case I had expected that the understanding was Failed as A sub, Failed to live up to the expectations of her dom. Perhaps it would be more apt, based on your observation that "everyone fails" to change " that it is A subs fault that she "failed"' to "that it is a subs fault that she is a Failure" which in a very real sense is what seems to be the common theme that inspired Me to post this.

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To Me as a Dom, I take responsibility for my sub, Claim their successes and growth with deserved pride and Failures... disappointments... how can such not be laid to rest upon My own feet as well? It is I who guide her so if there is a failure, whether it is in achieving a goal or performing a task, or simply meeting My needs it is more of a reflection on My own failure to properly instill, encourage or provide incentive to Meet My expectations.



Why would you take claim to someone elses successes? Usually when someone does something well - the person who does it is recognized by other people that are aware of it. Not someone else that didnt do it. How would you not take responsibility for someone elses failures? Because unless that person is a minor, normally as an adult you take responsibility for yourself.

So according to your next sentence that if you dont tell her how you want things done correctly and she fails to do them correctly then its on your shoulders. Yup - thats how it is in the job place too. Pretty simple concept.


Why would you not recognize your own part in that success if you were the one who Guided, nurtured and trained them for the success? When a parent or teacher or coach raises and see's their charges succeed and excel, is that not their own success as well? In a vanilla relationship, do you not take and accept responsibility for your Partner? It is My feelings that as a Dom I take on a greater responsibility for My subs well being both physically and mentally... Perhaps that is just me.

Your last sentence was pretty much My own point. It seemed to Me such a simple concept that I was truly baffled that it was  seemingly fairly commonly being ignored. or at least based on the rather limited field  I had to work with. If 4 out of about 10 conversations all had this dynamic in common.... what does that say to you?
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Running into a situation where a sub has been "released" or told they are the Cause of a failed D/s one time can be an anomaly but I have had very similar conversations with no less than 4 subs in the past weeks who have expressed this concept. Is it Me who is seeing this in the wrong light? Is not your sub a reflection of your own skill and Mastery?



They got dumped. People get dumped every day for one reason or another - and yes usually because something in the relationship failed. Whether the people you talked to want to claim responsibility for the break up - thats up to them. Whether or not thats the actual truth of the matter is a whole other story.

This may be a reasonable explanation for what I was receiving from the subs  was talking to, but unlike the expected norm of placing the blame on the dumper they were expressing how it was Obviously their own fault or failure, this having been explained by their ex-dom of course... Once more, it is not the specifics or merits of any one case, rather the commonality of the trend.
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Is your sub a reflection of your own skill and Mastery? - hmmm well skill and Mastery in what? Cooking? If you teach someone to cook well and they have a knack for it -well then they might become a great cook.

Your two sentences above have little relevance with one another.

I believe I have addressed up above that in this conversation I am being specific as it applies to a D/s or better Lifestyle and not mundane skills such as cooking or auto mechanics and will revert to the same Analogy used there of parent/Teacher/Coach. The skills of the Trainer are what arer reflected in the student and joined by that students natural aptitudes and abilities
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If you push to soon, or hold back when a push was needed, if you fail to "read" her signals correctly, or give her the wrong ones and she responds as trained... how is it possible, in good conscience to view it as anything but a failing of your Own responsibility. Yes am aware of how emotionally shattering the concept of disappointing Me can be for my sub.... but to lay the Onus on her when she is shattered .... I a sorry, I just do not comprehend that mental process that thinks this is acceptable.

Thought and feedback are welcome.



If you teach someone to do something wrong and they fuck up - then yes you should admit "wow - I taught this person the wrong thing and they did it wrong" Yes that is logical. Thats how that one works.

My Comments had nothing to do with "teaching the something wrong rather in using the wrong teaching methods to teach something Right, or to put it in simpler terms, to make a mistake in judgement.

Next -
Is it shattering to her? Do you even have a sub?

As I stated in My OP I am new to CM, perhaps I should have clarified I am anything but new to Life. I do not have the pleasure of knowing you, nor was I able to see your profile to gain an understanding of the age you might be, but I will assume by this question that we are of different generations.

I cant even answer the rest of what you wrote -it sounds like its coming from some lame d/s romance novel.
Perhaps it would be easier in a different vernaculer then "but to lay the Onus on her when she is shattered" "To diss on her when she is down" may be an ease to comprehension.

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First, thanks for the response and for parsing it as you did, will try to be clearer in My response. In this case I had expected that the understanding was Failed as A sub, Failed to live up to the expectations of her dom. Perhaps it would be more apt, based on your observation that "everyone fails" to change " that it is A subs fault that she "failed"' to "that it is a subs fault that she is a Failure" which in a very real sense is what seems to be the common theme that inspired Me to post this

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Your last sentence was pretty much My own point. It seemed to Me such a simple concept that I was truly baffled that it was seemingly fairly commonly being ignored. or at least based on the rather limited field I had to work with. If 4 out of about 10 conversations all had this dynamic in common.... what does that say to you?

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This may be a reasonable explanation for what I was receiving from the subs was talking to, but unlike the expected norm of placing the blame on the dumper they were expressing how it was Obviously their own fault or failure, this having been explained by their ex-dom of course... Once more, it is not the specifics or merits of any one case, rather the commonality of the trend.

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As I stated in My OP I am new to CM, perhaps I should have clarified I am anything but new to Life. I do not have the pleasure of knowing you, nor was I able to see your profile to gain an understanding of the age you might be, but I will assume by this question that we are of different generations.

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It sounds like a Parent-child relationship to me. Co dependant. I see that as a two way street. My Dom can fail to live up to my expectations too. If someone has low self esteem and sees everything as their fault even though it isnt - thats their problem.
I believe that someone needs to take responsibility for THEIR actions. And if they fuck up - they take responsibility for it.

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ORIGINAL: JanahX

Once more I thank you for your input Janah and while there is a "Daddy/Dom sense to taking responsibility for a sub at times it is not always specific to that genre. A Dom Sub relationship is Always co-dependent, without their counterpart, neither would have purpose. For One to take on the task of giving Structure and Boundaries to anothers life the One is under the Obligation to take responsibility for it. I chose to post this topic in the "Ask the Master" section to get the input of others with a similar background in understanding, and no this is not to dismiss your input. I am just unsure of the experiences you are basing your observations on.

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I have no idea since I dont know these people and what the true circumstances were. People babble on all day long about shit. Ive been dumped before, and was I ever hard on myself - blaming myself for this that and the other thing for why it didnt work out. When I got passed the grieving process for the loss of my relationship, I realized it WASNT all my fault. He had a MAJOR part in it. So what people say and what the reality is - and unless you know these people pretty damn well, you dont know.

Now your response would be what I would expect as a reaction to a failed relationship, An honest and healthy assessment that it did not work out due to incompatibility on both Partners... and as you say, I do not Know the reality of it, but your comment rings true... as did the ones My post was regarding. we all assess based on our own values scale.

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Well if they are mindless robots and believe everything that someone says whether its the truth or not. I guess that has to do with their self esteem and how intelligent they are to be able to process that and if they come to the conclusion if its the truth or not. In case you havent noticed, there are a lot of very damaged people on the other side. I wouldnt be taking everyones word for truth if I were you.

Come now Janah, surely you cannot be so cynical and callused that you can not understand the damage that Someone you have laid your Soul bare to can do to even the strongest of us. It does not require being Mindless or robotic to be so affected by a Betrayal of trust And I would hope you would have gathered by Now that what I am addressing is the intentional causing of such damage to avid accepting Your own responsibility in the fallout. I am neither naive nor gullible to take every word at face value. Nor am I jaded enough to assume that no ones words are of value.

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To the life? Im assuming Lifestyle - But that doesnt define anything for me. Because I dont know what it is that you do. Nor do I care. The term "Lifestyle" is such a bullshit term. BDSM internet jargon - that has very little defintion to it, but a lot of speculation.
I wouldnt assume anything. Its never a sure path to walk on.

Yes, Lifestyle is a collequiem that is commonly used to encompass all of the varied possible combinations of this alternate lifestyle, and because itis ued collectivly, it does not accuratly describe and specific individuals personal Life just as BDSM did not... But the context was that I was speaking specifically regarding the working dynamics of a D/s relationship should not have been lost on you.  Even the term D/s can be parsed into a hundred sub genre's so it to fails as an accurate descriptive, but it does serve to get the general idea of topic across without bogging down the conversation in nomenclature.

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Come now Janah, surely you cannot be so cynical and callused that you can not understand the damage that Someone you have laid your Soul bare to can do to even the strongest of us.

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ORIGINAL: JanahX

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