Government is Killing Americans!!!** (Full Version)

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DesideriScuri -> Government is Killing Americans!!!** (7/18/2012 11:26:29 AM)

** No. No it isn't killing Americans.

Sepsis is killing Americans.

quote:

    About 750,000 people in the U.S. each year get sepsis, and about 225,000 of them die from it.

...
    That wasn't always in the case. In 2001 when the U.S. Food and Drug Administration approved Xigris, made by the pharmaceutical company Eli Lilly, hopes were high that it would keep thousands of patients from dying. The company's initial clinical trials of the drug showed that it reduced the chances of dying by 20 percent in patients at risk of developing sepsis.

...
    But a new analysis, published Monday in the journal Lancet Infectious Diseases, throws into question whether or not Xigris should have been withdrawn at all. In it, Nebraska's Kalil analyzed the results of more than two dozen studies of Xigris, most performed in the "real-world" of clinics and hospitals, trying to save patients with sepsis.

....
    "I was expecting to see a very small effect, close to no effect. I was surprised when we saw these kinds of results," Kalil said.
    So should the drug be put back on the market? The answer is uncertain and, as far as Eli Lilly is concerned, unfeasible. Putting the drug back on the market would mean conducting another long, expensive clinical trial to clear regulatory hurdles. Janes said the company has no plans to do that, even in the face of evidence suggesting the drug's effectiveness.


So, we have a disease that kills 225k Americans each year. We had a drug that was supposedly helpful (not a guaranteed cure, though), butit was taken off the Market. And, the company won't be putting it back on the Market because of regulatory hurdles.





mnottertail -> RE: Government is Killing Americans!!!** (7/18/2012 11:28:18 AM)

Thalidomide, so cool with me.




thompsonx -> RE: Government is Killing Americans!!!** (7/18/2012 11:31:10 AM)

quote:

So, we have a disease that kills 225k Americans each year. We had a drug that was supposedly helpful (not a guaranteed cure, though), butit was taken off the Market.


You have failed to tell us why it was removed in the first place.

quote:

And, the company won't be putting it back on the Market because of regulatory hurdles.


What specific hurdles would you like to see removed so you can try out this drug that is,according to your post, 20% effective?




mnottertail -> RE: Government is Killing Americans!!!** (7/18/2012 11:32:56 AM)

Wouldn't scrubbing your ass real good be as effective?




thompsonx -> RE: Government is Killing Americans!!!** (7/18/2012 11:44:34 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Wouldn't scrubbing your ass real good be as effective?


Not until they stop lobing that shit at me, then one cleaning will do.




pissdoll -> RE: Government is Killing Americans!!!** (7/18/2012 12:05:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

You have failed to tell us why it was removed in the first place.



it appears as though there may be an issue of patients hemorrhaging while on this drug. if i were Eli Lilly, i doubt i would want that liability, especially with only a 20% success rate.




joether -> RE: Government is Killing Americans!!!** (7/18/2012 12:13:51 PM)

First off...

Why would a conservative give a shit what happens to his/her fellow Americans from a health care stand point? Because if such a person gets that dreadful disorder, it requires intensive medical care; and even then the victim has a 2/3 chances of survival without the drug in question. The drug in question is, Xigris:

quote:

SOURCE: RxList.com
Xigris (drotrecogin alfa (activated)) is a recombinant form of human activated protein C. An established human cell line possessing the complementary DNA for the inactive human protein C zymogen secretes the protein into the fermentation medium. Fermentation is carried out in a nutrient medium containing the antibiotic geneticin sulfate. Geneticin sulfate is not detectable in the final product. Human protein C is enzymatically activated by cleavage with thrombin and subsequently purified.

Drotrecogin alfa (activated) is a serine protease with the same amino acid sequence as human plasma-derived activated protein C. Drotrecogin alfa (activated) is a glycoprotein of approximately 55 kilodalton molecular weight, consisting of a heavy chain and a light chain linked by a disulfide bond. Drotrecogin alfa (activated) and human plasma-derived activated protein C have the same sites of glycosylation, although some differences in the glycosylation structures exist.

Xigris (drotrecogin alfa) is supplied as a sterile, lyophilized, white to off-white powder for intravenous infusion. The 5 and 20 mg vials of Xigris contain 5.3 mg and 20.8 mg of drotrecogin alfa (activated), respectively. The 5 and 20 mg vials of Xigris (drotrecogin alfa) also contain 40.3 and 158.1 mg of sodium chloride, 10.9 and 42.9 mg of sodium citrate, and 31.8 and 124.9 mg of sucrose, respectively.


And now for the side effects:

A) blood in your urine or stools;
B) coughing up blood or vomit that looks like coffee grounds;
C) bleeding from any incision or injection in your skin; or any bleeding that won't stop.

Yeah, the side effects are gruesome by any sane means. Even if one surivies from using this drug, they have terrifying nightmares for a long while afterward. Imagine some kid have these side effects?

The drug was taken off the market for not keeping up with the requires of the FDA. The company that makes the drug, pharmaceutical Eli Lilly, states the drug is now off the market and is unlikely to re-enter the market due to the costs of trials required by the goverment. More so, I suspect (but can not prove) that they feel the market is not 'ripe enough' to expirment with a better drug that removes much of the side effects while improving the victim's chances of suvival.

Then there is the FDA reason for taking it off the shelf: Its effectiveness was deemed no better than a commonly found antibotic set of drugs and treatments.

I guess that leaves the philsophical question: Should we research a medication or cures for something that for-profit companies deem 'not profitable enough'? Yes, because this sort of knowledge helps mankind overcome the problems it faces long term. But seems to me the sort of people that would desire for such a drug/treatment to be develop come from the liberal and some moderate side of the political spectrum. The only time conservatives get involved is either A) They can profit from someone else's misery or the more likely B) They or the direct loved one they know has this dreadful condition, and demand help (but before, were fully against it).

And while its not 'on topic' it is pretty important, DS. How many of those infected, had health coverage to handle the drug treatment, when Xigris was in the market place? Because it generally costs the ER more from patients without medical coverage than those that do. And would make common sense that a person suffering from this illness would rush to a ER doctor rather than wait 2-14 days to see their normal doctor (if they had one). And you have stated in the recent past that your against the concept (not just the bill) for the ACA. So here you are, bitching about a drug, that was removed by the FDA (for failing to live up to its stated potential), that would have generally been used to fight a deadly illness, and given to a person whom stood a decent chance of not having health coverage of any kind. Again, why would a conservative give a shit what happens to his fellow Americans? Isn't it a 'true conservative' one that ignores the suffering of others, and wishs companies to profit heavily off the suffering of others?





divi -> RE: Government is Killing Americans!!!** (7/18/2012 1:01:27 PM)

I thought McDonalds was killing us




SilverMark -> RE: Government is Killing Americans!!!** (7/18/2012 1:09:27 PM)

That was a longer than normal conspiracy theory.....no more impressive than the moon flight, the phrase "pull it" or Elvis is alive on an island hanging with JFK....nice effort though!




vincentML -> RE: Government is Killing Americans!!!** (7/18/2012 3:48:31 PM)

quote:

it appears as though there may be an issue of patients hemorrhaging while on this drug. if i were Eli Lilly, i doubt i would want that liability, especially with only a 20% success rate.


In a most disingenuous slight of hand the OP fails to point out that the hemorrhaging was observed in Europe, that the US Government did not demand withdrawal of the drug, that Eli Lilly withdrew the drug on its own. The OP slyly uses a headline to promote his own "small government" agenda. Such a rascal he is.

He also fails to acknowledge that hospital personnel were unable to develop a protocal for effective administration of the drug. Do the math. 33% of infected patients die from auto immune over-reaction. The drug is helpful for 20% of the mortality rate. That's 6.6% efficacy of the total infected population. Not much better than a placebo.




tazzygirl -> RE: Government is Killing Americans!!!** (7/18/2012 4:16:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

** No. No it isn't killing Americans.

Sepsis is killing Americans.

quote:

    About 750,000 people in the U.S. each year get sepsis, and about 225,000 of them die from it.



...
    That wasn't always in the case. In 2001 when the U.S. Food and Drug Administration approved Xigris, made by the pharmaceutical company Eli Lilly, hopes were high that it would keep thousands of patients from dying. The company's initial clinical trials of the drug showed that it reduced the chances of dying by 20 percent in patients at risk of developing sepsis.

...
    But a new analysis, published Monday in the journal Lancet Infectious Diseases, throws into question whether or not Xigris should have been withdrawn at all. In it, Nebraska's Kalil analyzed the results of more than two dozen studies of Xigris, most performed in the "real-world" of clinics and hospitals, trying to save patients with sepsis.

....
    "I was expecting to see a very small effect, close to no effect. I was surprised when we saw these kinds of results," Kalil said.
    So should the drug be put back on the market? The answer is uncertain and, as far as Eli Lilly is concerned, unfeasible. Putting the drug back on the market would mean conducting another long, expensive clinical trial to clear regulatory hurdles. Janes said the company has no plans to do that, even in the face of evidence suggesting the drug's effectiveness.


So, we have a disease that kills 225k Americans each year. We had a drug that was supposedly helpful (not a guaranteed cure, though), butit was taken off the Market. And, the company won't be putting it back on the Market because of regulatory hurdles.





Treatments and drugs
By Mayo Clinic staff
Early, aggressive treatment boosts your chances of surviving sepsis. People with severe sepsis require close monitoring and treatment in a hospital intensive care unit. If you have severe sepsis or septic shock, lifesaving measures may be needed to stabilize breathing and heart function.

Medications
A number of different types of medications are used in treating sepsis. They include:

Antibiotics. Treatment with antibiotics begins immediately — even before the infectious agent is identified. Initially you'll receive broad-spectrum antibiotics, which are effective against a variety of bacteria. The antibiotics are administered intravenously (IV). After learning the results of blood tests, your doctor may switch to a different antibiotic that's more appropriate against the particular bacteria causing the infection.
Vasopressors. If your blood pressure remains too low even after receiving intravenous fluids, you may be given a vasopressor medication, which constricts blood vessels and helps to increase blood pressure.
Others. Other medications you may receive include low doses of corticosteroids, insulin to help maintain stable blood sugar levels, drugs that modify the immune system responses, and painkillers or sedatives.


Your article titled...

Sepsis: Blood Poisoning Kills Thousands, But No Drugs to Help

Is extremely misleading.




Politesub53 -> RE: Government is Killing Americans!!!** (7/18/2012 4:52:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

** No. No it isn't killing Americans.



Were you unable to understand your own link ? The part stating the drug was little better than a placebo ?

quote:

But the drug's initial performance was somewhat disappointing. Some patients benefited from the drug, others did not, and doctors had trouble defining which type of patient would benefit the most. The drug was also very expensive, so many hospitals put protocols in place that strictly limited when the drug could be given -- usually when all other methods had failed.
Dr. Jonathan Janes, medical director of acute care for Eli Lilly, said the company was encouraged by studies of the drug in real-life clinical settings, which showed that it kept many patients alive.
"We felt encouraged by those results, they seemed to support that the drug worked," Janes said. "Obviously, you need your clinical trial data, but these results were nice to have."
But questions about the drug's effectiveness and safety began to surface. Patients getting Xigris had a slightly increased risk of bleeding. Increasingly skeptical that the expensive drug was actually effective, European regulators asked Eli Lilly to conduct a second clinical trial. The results were the nail in Xigris' coffin -- the trial showed that the drug was little better than placebo. Based on those results, Eli Lilly voluntarily pulled the drug from the market in October 2011.




DesideriScuri -> RE: Government is Killing Americans!!!** (7/18/2012 8:52:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
quote:

So, we have a disease that kills 225k Americans each year. We had a drug that was supposedly helpful (not a guaranteed cure, though), butit was taken off the Market.

You have failed to tell us why it was removed in the first place.


It was in the article.

quote:

quote:

And, the company won't be putting it back on the Market because of regulatory hurdles.

What specific hurdles would you like to see removed so you can try out this drug that is,according to your post, 20% effective?


Let's see...have a drug that is 20% effective, or have no drug therapy at all. Your call, dude.




DesideriScuri -> RE: Government is Killing Americans!!!** (7/18/2012 9:05:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
First off...
Why would a conservative give a shit what happens to his/her fellow Americans from a health care stand point? Because if such a person gets that dreadful disorder, it requires intensive medical care; and even then the victim has a 2/3 chances of survival without the drug in question. The drug in question is, Xigris:


The drug has a 20% success rate. 20% of 250,000 is 50,000. That is, 50,000 people die every year because this drug is not available. Shall we compare that to the 26,000 that die, according to ya'all, because of lack of health care? Any takers?

quote:

I guess that leaves the philsophical question: Should we research a medication or cures for something that for-profit companies deem 'not profitable enough'? Yes, because this sort of knowledge helps mankind overcome the problems it faces long term. But seems to me the sort of people that would desire for such a drug/treatment to be develop come from the liberal and some moderate side of the political spectrum. The only time conservatives get involved is either A) They can profit from someone else's misery or the more likely B) They or the direct loved one they know has this dreadful condition, and demand help (but before, were fully against it).


Well, I guess there is no ideological bullshit in there, now is there? [8|]

And, where is the money to come from to pay for this research? It's all well and good that research is done, but that shit costs, and if no one wants to pay for it, why would a company bankroll the research when they aren't going to be able to get their costs back?

[qutoe]And while its not 'on topic' it is pretty important, DS. How many of those infected, had health coverage to handle the drug treatment, when Xigris was in the market place?


Did you read the article? Did you see the part where it brought up how much insurance covered, how many people were covered under insurance, etc.? No? It doesn't matter how many people had insurance. That has nothing to do with any of this.

quote:


Again, why would a conservative give a shit what happens to his fellow Americans? Isn't it a 'true conservative' one that ignores the suffering of others, and wishs companies to profit heavily off the suffering of others?


Um, no, not at all. Take off your blue goggles and be fucking real. Do you really believe that Conservatives are truly out to force people to suffer? Do you really think Conservatives are going to "push grannie over the cliff?" Do you truly think that Conservatives enjoy seeing the homeless, the poor, etc.? If you honestly believe any of those things, your opinions mean less than dog shit to me.

Enjoy.

(Edited because I forgot a "/" to end a quoted section)




erieangel -> RE: Government is Killing Americans!!!** (7/18/2012 9:07:00 PM)

quote:

Let's see...have a drug that is 20% effective, or have no drug therapy at all. Your call, dude.


The drug available today would be antibiotics!!




DesideriScuri -> RE: Government is Killing Americans!!!** (7/18/2012 9:15:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
** No. No it isn't killing Americans.

Were you unable to understand your own link ? The part stating the drug was little better than a placebo ?
quote:

But the drug's initial performance was somewhat disappointing. Some patients benefited from the drug, others did not, and doctors had trouble defining which type of patient would benefit the most. The drug was also very expensive, so many hospitals put protocols in place that strictly limited when the drug could be given -- usually when all other methods had failed.
Dr. Jonathan Janes, medical director of acute care for Eli Lilly, said the company was encouraged by studies of the drug in real-life clinical settings, which showed that it kept many patients alive.
"We felt encouraged by those results, they seemed to support that the drug worked," Janes said. "Obviously, you need your clinical trial data, but these results were nice to have."
But questions about the drug's effectiveness and safety began to surface. Patients getting Xigris had a slightly increased risk of bleeding. Increasingly skeptical that the expensive drug was actually effective, European regulators asked Eli Lilly to conduct a second clinical trial. The results were the nail in Xigris' coffin -- the trial showed that the drug was little better than placebo. Based on those results, Eli Lilly voluntarily pulled the drug from the market in October 2011.



Well, I guess I just got all wound up about things. I suppose I should have ignored the rest of the article...

quote:


But a new analysis, published Monday in the journal Lancet Infectious Diseases, throws into question whether or not Xigris should have been withdrawn at all. In it, Nebraska's Kalil analyzed the results of more than two dozen studies of Xigris, most performed in the "real-world" of clinics and hospitals, trying to save patients with sepsis.
The results suggest that Xigris is effective after all. The study found that Xigris reduced patients' risk of dying by 18 percent, similar to the results Eli Lilly had reported in its first study of the drug.


But, hey,what do I know? One study showed it to be no better than a placebo. Then there were dozens of studies in clinical settings, with results showing it to be better than a placebo.




TheHeretic -> RE: Government is Killing Americans!!!** (7/18/2012 9:29:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

Why would a conservative give a shit what happens to his/her fellow Americans from a health care stand point?



Possibly because conservatives are regular human beings, who care about their fellow human beings? Sorry if that doesn't mesh with the hatemush and koolaid you live on, but that's really more your problem than anything else. It's a common disorder these days.


Now it does occur to me that if the concerns about the drug were inaccurately weighed againt the benefits, making the company go through all the million dollar hoops, all over again, does seem a bit fucked up.





Musicmystery -> RE: Government is Killing Americans!!!** (7/19/2012 4:50:38 AM)

That's certainly not their rhetoric, though, is it.




Owner59 -> RE: Government is Killing Americans!!!** (7/19/2012 5:14:55 AM)

They keep their "humanity" a trade secret......and vote to repeal health care reform and/or keep capital punishment or lie us into war.......


This......is what caring about human beings means to neo-conservatives......the opposite.




vincentML -> RE: Government is Killing Americans!!!** (7/19/2012 5:55:07 AM)

quote:

But, hey,what do I know? One study showed it to be no better than a placebo. Then there were dozens of studies in clinical settings, with results showing it to be better than a placebo.


18% of one-third infected is still only 6% efficacy. WTF? How is that significantly better than a placebo?




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