Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: American Socialism


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: American Socialism Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3 4   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: American Socialism - 7/20/2012 2:10:13 PM   
joether


Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
You wouldn't say that because said organizations are funded through taxes raised under a capitalist system rather than run through voluntary co-operation in a post capitalist society that disqualifies them as socialist, then?


If your going to argue that, than I could argue that people purchase things based on impluse rather than careful study. Is that 'capitalism' or 'anarchy'?

Actually, once you give the money in the form of taxes to the goverment, the money is no longer your money. Its the goverment's money. So if the goverment is spending its money, is it for organizations and entities of a 'capitalistic' or 'socialistic' nature? Lets assume for the sake of the thread, that tese are the only two or three types of economic situations.

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: American Socialism - 7/20/2012 2:17:17 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Ok.. Moon... I luvs ya... but you just lost me.. low flying planes I guess.. and I probably should have understood... but meds are kicking my butt... mind dumbing that down for me a bit?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: American Socialism - 7/20/2012 2:26:59 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		One thing that discussions of "socialism" sometimes overlook is that any revenue raised by taxation is dependent on the existence of a capitalist system. The socialist ideal is supposed to abandon the monetary system and all of the stuff that goes with it. There's actually a few smalllish scale communes that have managed (or manage) to work on the Marxist "from each according to their ability, to each according to their need" system rather than a monetary one, dig?

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: American Socialism - 7/20/2012 2:32:49 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Yeah, I get that.

But, by your definition, nothing in the US, with the exception of Ithica, NY and their Ithica dollars, would be included. Am I understanding you correctly?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: American Socialism - 7/20/2012 2:33:53 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

One thing that discussions of "socialism" sometimes overlook is that any revenue raised by taxation is dependent on the existence of a capitalist system. The socialist ideal is supposed to abandon the monetary system and all of the stuff that goes with it. There's actually a few smalllish scale communes that have managed (or manage) to work on the Marxist "from each according to their ability, to each according to their need" system rather than a monetary one, dig?


As I read socialism as it is practiced, the rule is "from each according to their ability to each according to what they produce.
With the "withering away of the dictatorship of the proletariat" it is suppose to move to communism which is from each according to their ability and to each according to their need.
Did they change something and me not get the memo?

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: American Socialism - 7/20/2012 2:50:20 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		World English Dictionary


socialism (ˈsəʊʃəˌlɪzəm)

— n
1. Compare capitalism an economic theory or system in which the means of production, distribution, and exchange are owned by the community collectively, usually through the state. It is characterized by production for use rather than profit, by equality of individual wealth, by the absence of competitive economic activity, and, usually, by government determination of investment, prices, and production levels
2. any of various social or political theories or movements in which the common welfare is to be achieved through the establishment of a socialist economic system
3. (in Leninist theory) a transitional stage after the proletarian revolution in the development of a society from capitalism to communism: characterized by the distribution of income according to work rather than need

Can we agree on these?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: American Socialism - 7/20/2012 2:52:32 PM   
Jussard


Posts: 8
Joined: 2/14/2008
Status: offline 		Obviously a lot depends on your personal definitions, but as a centrally inclined Brit I'd say American Socialism strikes Me as an oxymoron - you have to bear in mind on a world stage the Democrats are far right and the Republicans extreme right so socialism is fairly alien. Obviously Im not familiar with a lot of US institutions but I noticed someone mentioned the fire service. I know you don't pay yours so I can see that sort of ticking a box.

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: American Socialism - 7/20/2012 3:12:03 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Yeah, I get that.

But, by your definition, nothing in the US, with the exception of Ithica, NY and their Ithica dollars, would be included. Am I understanding you correctly?

Pretty much, yeah.
I'd probably be a bit less pedantic if there hadn't been the best part of four years' worth of drivel about teh kenyan being a Marxist, but even so, raising funds (for whatever purpose) through taxation doesn't imply that society's becoming more collectivised or capitalism is in its death throes to me.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: American Socialism - 7/20/2012 3:35:11 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jussard

Obviously a lot depends on your personal definitions,


I like to go to the source for definition and tazz has shown her always exellent google skills so my age does not seem to have addled too much my memory.

quote:

but as a centrally inclined Brit I'd say American Socialism strikes Me as an oxymoron - you have to bear in mind on a world stage the Democrats are far right and the Republicans extreme right so socialism is fairly alien.



Perhaps from that distance it may seem that way to you but rest assured that the demopubs and the republicrats are the same fascist entity that only the most guilable would believe actually differed in substance.

quote:

Obviously Im not familiar with a lot of US institutions but I noticed someone mentioned the fire service. I know you don't pay yours so I can see that sort of ticking a box.


The fire services are a paid (and quite well) position. We also have "volunteer" fire services which are not paid but they represent a rather small double digit percentage of the total force of the fire service.

(in reply to Jussard)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: American Socialism - 7/20/2012 3:37:17 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

World English Dictionary


socialism (ˈsəʊʃəˌlɪzəm)

— n
1. Compare capitalism an economic theory or system in which the means of production, distribution, and exchange are owned by the community collectively, usually through the state. It is characterized by production for use rather than profit, by equality of individual wealth, by the absence of competitive economic activity, and, usually, by government determination of investment, prices, and production levels
2. any of various social or political theories or movements in which the common welfare is to be achieved through the establishment of a socialist economic system
3. (in Leninist theory) a transitional stage after the proletarian revolution in the development of a society from capitalism to communism: characterized by the distribution of income according to work rather than need

Can we agree on these?



That is pretty much what I remember from the poly sci classes I took.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: American Socialism - 7/20/2012 4:07:34 PM   
Jussard


Posts: 8
Joined: 2/14/2008
Status: offline
quote:

but as a centrally inclined Brit I'd say American Socialism strikes Me as an oxymoron - you have to bear in mind on a world stage the Democrats are far right and the Republicans extreme right so socialism is fairly alien.



Perhaps from that distance it may seem that way to you but rest assured that the demopubs and the republicrats are the same fascist entity that only the most guilable would believe actually differed in substance.

That's essentially My point - right end of the spectrum with barely light between them. I guess what gap there is in the vertical axis rather than the horizontal.

quote:

Obviously Im not familiar with a lot of US institutions but I noticed someone mentioned the fire service. I know you don't pay yours so I can see that sort of ticking a box.


The fire services are a paid (and quite well) position. We also have "volunteer" fire services which are not paid but they represent a rather small double digit percentage of the total force of the fire service.


Thanks - happy to be corrected on issues I'm unexposed to.

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: American Socialism - 7/20/2012 4:28:47 PM   
erieangel


Posts: 2237
Joined: 6/19/2011
Status: offline 		What is left of the state mental hospital system is/was socialist.

Community based mental health care is socialist.

Free school lunches.

The state system of higher education.


(in reply to Jussard)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: American Socialism - 7/20/2012 5:33:09 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Free education for children is a socialist policy. Except it isnt free, it comes from taxes. It seems to me those who knock socialism want to cherrypick how taxes are spent.

Back in Victorian times many philanthorpists got rich from capitalism and supported social policies. IE, some supplied housing for the workforce they had. Poor housing by todays standards but a luxury by standards of the time. Schooling for kids and a from of medical care were also provided.

One reason being those with money saw that a contented, well fed and healthy workforce were more productive. So capitalist systems with social policies can co-exist.

(in reply to erieangel)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: American Socialism - 7/21/2012 2:11:39 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

That's essentially My point - right end of the spectrum with barely light between them. I guess what gap there is in the vertical axis rather than the horizontal.


From my vantage point there is no light between them they are one in the same.
If there were not the circus about what color the president is and one were to look only at actions, how would one tell the difference?
Were still in the sandbox and we are still in gitmo...same shit different flys.

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: American Socialism - 7/21/2012 2:17:49 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

So capitalist systems with social policies can co-exist.


If we take it as a given that capitalism and corpratism are the same.
The nature of capitalism seeks market share to the point of monopoly.
Monopoly breeds economies of scale.
The state would be the ultimate corporation...that may also be a fair definition of socialism.
whadyatink?

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: American Socialism - 7/21/2012 2:20:14 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

So capitalist systems with social policies can co-exist.


If we take it as a given that capitalism and corpratism are the same.
The nature of capitalism seeks market share to the point of monopoly.
Monopoly breeds economies of scale.
The state would be the ultimate corporation...that may also be a fair definition of socialism.
whadyatink?

Can't speak for polite, but a corporarist system where the state is run by commerical interests sounds a lot more like fascism than socialism to me.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: American Socialism - 7/21/2012 2:28:22 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
Can't speak for polite, but a corporarist system where the state is run by commerical interests sounds a lot more like fascism than socialism to me.

I'm not a poli-sci major but that matches my understanding also. And I also have to admit that while I think the greed motive is nice and dependable I also think I don't want to live in a society where that is the only measure which matters. That is capitalism without "regulation". It is placing greed above any other consideration.


_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: American Socialism - 7/21/2012 4:54:34 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

So capitalist systems with social policies can co-exist.


If we take it as a given that capitalism and corpratism are the same.
The nature of capitalism seeks market share to the point of monopoly.
Monopoly breeds economies of scale.
The state would be the ultimate corporation...that may also be a fair definition of socialism.
whadyatink?
 

An interesting point that is fair enough. If you think of it, the original capitalist entities operated on behalf of the state anyway, while at the same time being independent. IE, both worked in the others interest.

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: American Socialism - 7/21/2012 4:57:01 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Can't speak for polite, but a corporarist system where the state is run by commerical interests sounds a lot more like fascism than socialism to me.


Surely it is the opposite if it is fully inclusive, which fascist regimes havent been up to now ?

I dont see why corporations cant work for the public good.

Edits to make my point as clear as I can.... A State working as a corporation for the benefit of all. I may be wrong but i think thats what Thompson was getting at, and if so, I agree with him.

< Message edited by Politesub53 -- 7/21/2012 5:00:42 PM >

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: American Socialism - 7/21/2012 5:02:34 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

A State working as a corporation for the benefit of all. I may be wrong but i think thats what Thompson was getting at, and if so, I agree with him.


So that is your definition of socialism?



_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 40
Page:   <<   < prev  1 [2] 3 4   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: American Socialism Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3 4   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.109