RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives?

RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? (Full Version)

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KYsissy -> RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? (7/24/2012 5:59:00 PM)
My guess is that the kind of people to have a concealed carry permit are not the type to go to opening night midnight movies. At least not the the ones I personally know

Moonhead -> RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? (7/24/2012 6:00:46 PM)
So your point about somebody shooting the twat and stopping him killing anybody was nonsense, then?

KYsissy -> RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? (7/24/2012 6:16:38 PM)
Why was it nonsense? The wingnut chose wisely. Just like the Guy who shot up a summer camp in Europe. Was it Sweden? they went where it was VERY unlikely they would meet any resistance. I don't know what point you are trying to make other than "guns are bad, take them away ". And maybe you truly believe. That would make a better world. Do we start chipping away at the bill of rights? You obviously don't like Rush Limbaugh. Well neither do I. Should we take away his first amendment rights Cuz we don't agree with him? What we have in this country is FAR from perfect. But it is pretty good. Does that mean we start ripping out the foundation because something terrible happened?

Moonhead -> RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? (7/24/2012 6:20:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KYsissy Why was it nonsense? The wingnut chose wisely. Just like the Guy who shot up a summer camp in Europe. Was it Sweden? they went where it was VERY unlikely they would meet any resistance. I don't know what point you are trying to make other than "guns are bad, take them away ". And maybe you truly believe. That would make a better world. Do we start chipping away at the bill of rights? You obviously don't like Rush Limbaugh. Well neither do I. Should we take away his first amendment rights Cuz we don't agree with him? What we have in this country is FAR from perfect. Does that mean we start ripping out the foundation because something terrible happened? Norway, not Sweden. And that was the first incident they've had there for a long time, so the gun control works more often than it doesn't. If you're going to start bleating about the bill of rights, why are people assuming that the second amendment applies to guns that fire cased ammunition, rather than the muzzle loaders they had back when the constitution was drafted? (And iirc, you ripped out all sorts of foundation after a couple of ugly buildings got knocked over in New York. Why weren't the NRA bitching about that?)

KYsissy -> RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? (7/24/2012 6:28:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead quote: ORIGINAL: KYsissy Why was it nonsense? The wingnut chose wisely. Just like the Guy who shot up a summer camp in Europe. Was it Sweden? they went where it was VERY unlikely they would meet any resistance. I don't know what point you are trying to make other than "guns are bad, take them away ". And maybe you truly believe. That would make a better world. Do we start chipping away at the bill of rights? You obviously don't like Rush Limbaugh. Well neither do I. Should we take away his first amendment rights Cuz we don't agree with him? What we have in this country is FAR from perfect. Does that mean we start ripping out the foundation because something terrible happened? Norway, not Sweden. And that was the first incident they've had there for a long time, so the gun control works more often than it doesn't. If you're going to start bleating about the bill of rights, why are people assuming that the second amendment applies to guns that fire cased ammunition, rather than the muzzle loaders they had back when the constitution was drafted? (And iirc, you ripped out all sorts of foundation after a couple of ugly buildings got knocked over in New York. Why weren't the NRA bitching about that?) "Bleating about the bill of rights" Really? So which rights are outdated. Which ones should we get rid of? Should we put it to a vote? Majority wins? If not, who decides?

Musicmystery -> RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? (7/24/2012 7:57:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery And the civilians are no better trained. Some are, some arent. My point is that a majority of police are not "highly trained professionals" as you put it. They have training but some civilians (especially vets) are much better. Most are worse but you shouldn't generalize. Ive seen a 135# civilian go thru a "highly trained" SWAT team like a chain saw thru styrofoam and those guys were supposedly the best of the best. It's the same with firearms. Cops aren't necessarily capable beyond punching paper a coupla times a year and some civilians are VERY capable. People are individuals and shouldn't be generalized and lumped. Police officers are human beings. They have the same wants, needs, fears and vices as the rest of us. They aren't supermen. They're mostly just regular guys and gals who have a tough job to do. I agree completly, when in high school I regularly went shooting with local cops (my dad was on the force) and routinly out shot most of them. Later when an admen guy at our sheriffs office (different state) I out shot about 75-80% of the officers. And I know a bunch of civilians who can outshoot me. Dudes. Again. High stress situations. <--issue

Yachtie -> RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? (7/24/2012 8:09:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead Norway, not Sweden. And that was the first incident they've had there for a long time, so the gun control works more often than it doesn't. That is in no way reflective of any proof of gun control working except your saying so. The way you put it, if gun control actually worked that incident would not have happened. That was a strawman you made - gun control works so well Norway has had only one.

Hillwilliam -> RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? (7/24/2012 8:09:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery Dudes. Again. High stress situations. <--issue I've personally been in a high stress situation. I was armed, they were armed. I had just spent 6 hours having a house slowly jackhammered to gravel around me by Hurricane Andrew and here come a group of looters when the damn wind hasnt even let up yet. I had no shakes, all I had was a lovely crisp sight picture as time slowed and things got strangely calm. My breathing slowed, my hearbeat slowed. It was no different from putting the crosshairs on a deer. There was no shooting because I think they realized they wouldn't leave on their feet. 2 days later, one of my close neighbors scored a headshot on an assailant (probably of the same group) that actively was shooting at him from 15 meters. That's right, killed him. The police came by on their daily rounds, tossed the body in the trunk and shook the guy's hand. My neighbor was still digging shotgun pellets out 2 days later. It isn't whether you are a civilian or cop. Cops are no more or less likely to go all to hell in their first firefight. It goes deeper. Cops aren't supermen. They're just men and women like the rest of us. Cops aren't trained for firefights. I'm not sure you CAN train someone for a firefight. Lord knows, the military tries. Don't give me this crap about "highly trained professionals" A: Ive been there B: I've helped train some of them.

OsideGirl -> RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? (7/24/2012 8:11:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KYsissy My guess is that the kind of people to have a concealed carry permit are not the type to go to opening night midnight movies. At least not the the ones I personally know Actually, that theatre has a no weapons policy and the city has upheld their right to do so. So, there wouldn't have been anyone armed in that theatre. Rumor has it, it's one of the reasons he chose that particular theatre.

mtcouple -> RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? (7/24/2012 8:11:42 PM)
I know plenty of civilians that carry concealed, and have gone to the trouble to train for high stress situations. From what I've seen, the people that go to the trouble of getting a concealed carry license, invest in the gear necessary to take advantage of that license, and actually carry a heavy lump of a gun around with them on a day to day basis tend to take firearms training very seriously.

Hillwilliam -> RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? (7/24/2012 8:15:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OsideGirl quote: ORIGINAL: KYsissy My guess is that the kind of people to have a concealed carry permit are not the type to go to opening night midnight movies. At least not the the ones I personally know Actually, that theatre has a no weapons policy and the city has upheld their right to do so. So, there wouldn't have been anyone armed in that theatre. Rumor has it, it's one of the reasons he chose that particular theatre. ty oside. It's called "Law Abiding Citizens". They don't carry where the property owner says they cant.

slvemike4u -> RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? (7/24/2012 8:17:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: police do a LOT less shooting than a lot of civilians That's hardly the same as civilian training equaling police training. Shooting isn't the issue--it's the situation. Military folk do enough shooting...and yet had to be retrained before they could do the peace-keeping work in Iraq. Civilians who like to shoot don't come with this training at all, however many hours they've burned through shells. Shooting under stress is something else again. And yet you never hear any of these (yes,I'm talking about folks on this thread)idiots concede that basic and obvious fact. In their fantasies it is always Dirty Harry himself giving the "perp a third eye". They also never consider multiple Harry's all popping up and trading shots back and forth or Law enforcement walking in and seeing multiple shooters? None of this shit happens in their little O.K. corrals

Hillwilliam -> RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? (7/24/2012 8:23:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: police do a LOT less shooting than a lot of civilians That's hardly the same as civilian training equaling police training. Shooting isn't the issue--it's the situation. Military folk do enough shooting...and yet had to be retrained before they could do the peace-keeping work in Iraq. Civilians who like to shoot don't come with this training at all, however many hours they've burned through shells. Shooting under stress is something else again. And yet you never hear any of these (yes,I'm talking about folks on this thread)idiots concede that basic and obvious fact. In their fantasies it is always Dirty Harry himself giving the "perp a third eye". They also never consider multiple Harry's all popping up and trading shots back and forth or Law enforcement walking in and seeing multiple shooters? None of this shit happens in their little O.K. corrals After Andrew, we were lucky to see a cop every 48 hours and (when they finally showed up after almost a week) the national guard wasn't even issued any ammo. Before you start, cell phones weren't generally available. They were still a $500/month toy for rich boys and girls. A quarter million people were on their fucking OWN in total anarchy.

kanedesade -> RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? (7/24/2012 8:26:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: police do a LOT less shooting than a lot of civilians That's hardly the same as civilian training equaling police training. Shooting isn't the issue--it's the situation. Military folk do enough shooting...and yet had to be retrained before they could do the peace-keeping work in Iraq. Civilians who like to shoot don't come with this training at all, however many hours they've burned through shells. Shooting under stress is something else again. And yet you never hear any of these (yes,I'm talking about folks on this thread)idiots concede that basic and obvious fact. In their fantasies it is always Dirty Harry himself giving the "perp a third eye". They also never consider multiple Harry's all popping up and trading shots back and forth or Law enforcement walking in and seeing multiple shooters? None of this shit happens in their little O.K. corrals After Andrew, we were lucky to see a cop every 48 hours and (when they finally showed up after almost a week) the national guard wasn't even issued any ammo. Before you start, cell phones weren't generally available. They were still a $500/month toy for rich boys and girls. A quarter million people were on their fucking OWN in total anarchy. Hugo was pretty much the same way. Add in idiots price gouging, it's a shock there was never a mass riot in South Carolina.

mtcouple -> RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? (7/24/2012 8:31:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: mtcouple quote: ORIGINAL: SilverMark As the kid was leaving, and AFTER he had already shot 9 kids, killing two.....just a tad bit late....and all the assistant principal did was detain him....didn't stop anything, the damage was done, the kid was leaving the school....I guess it is possible he might have stopped the kid from shooting anyone on his drive home, assuming he would have done so? As I recall, the gun was in the assistant principal's car, which means that when the shooting started, he had to go out to his car, get his gun, load it, come back into the school, find the shooter, and then stop him. By that time the kid had already killed 9 kids. If he was carrying the gun, the outcome might have been different. oh yea, then there is this: http://www.aikenstandard.com/story/m1040-BC-SC-Shotgun-SCChurch-2ndLd-Writethru-03-26-0803--3890315 The guy had already been at the church causing enough of a problem that the pastor's son was keeping an eye on the parking lot. Concealed carry had nothing to do with this. If he had not been legally allowed to carry a gun when he felt like it, he probably would not have had his pistol in his car, and he most certainly would not have been able to carry it concealed when he sensed trouble. Please explain how this has nothing do to with concealed carry?

OsideGirl -> RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? (7/24/2012 8:31:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: police do a LOT less shooting than a lot of civilians That's hardly the same as civilian training equaling police training. Shooting isn't the issue--it's the situation. Military folk do enough shooting...and yet had to be retrained before they could do the peace-keeping work in Iraq. Civilians who like to shoot don't come with this training at all, however many hours they've burned through shells. Shooting under stress is something else again. And yet you never hear any of these (yes,I'm talking about folks on this thread)idiots concede that basic and obvious fact. In their fantasies it is always Dirty Harry himself giving the "perp a third eye". They also never consider multiple Harry's all popping up and trading shots back and forth or Law enforcement walking in and seeing multiple shooters? None of this shit happens in their little O.K. corrals In my fantasy, I never have a need to draw my weapon to defend myself. But, if in fact I do need to, I'm preparing the best I can. I put at least 300 rounds a month through my gun and use a friends competition 22 to fine tune my skills and I'm planning on taking a defensive shooting class. Keep in mind that: 1) I bought my gun for sport and home defense. 2) CCWs are virtually impossible to get in San Diego county and 3) I really have no urge to carry my gun around outside of the house, it was bought for protection when I'm home alone during the day or target shooting on the weekends.

Musicmystery -> RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? (7/24/2012 8:36:29 PM)
quote: I've personally been in a high stress situation. Sigh. Nor is it about anecdotal evidence, whether your superpowers or someone else. The general populace is not trained for it and would not perform well under high stress situations like these. Period. Any more silly twists before I have to repeat that again?

Hillwilliam -> RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? (7/24/2012 8:43:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: I've personally been in a high stress situation. Sigh. Nor is it about anecdotal evidence, whether your superpowers or someone else. The general populace is not trained for it and would not perform well under high stress situations like these. Period. Any more silly twists before I have to repeat that again? I'm just a regular guy who performs well in high stress situations. It's fortunate or I'd probably be dead between sky and SCUBA diving incidents Ive had. Keep moving those goal posts, MM. You started with "Guns should only be carried by "Highly trained professional police officers" I pointed out that they are professional (at least the vast majority) but highly trained, they are most certainly not. I'll type this slowly. They are no different from you and I. Their firearms training consists of punching holes in paper a few times a year and that's IT. They generally dont get combat shooting courses and that's a shame because it would certainly save lives. Unfortunately, most of them arent motivated enough to take one on their own time to do so. A lot of civilians are just as capable if not better. It's a fact, deal with it and quit twisting, spinning and moving goal posts and acting like cops are some kind of 'shooting Gods'. They're no better or worse than any competent marksman. I'll repeat, I've helped train cops. They're no different from you and I. They're just people with the same hopes, dreams, strengths and weaknesses as the rest of us.

slvemike4u -> RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? (7/24/2012 8:43:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KYsissy quote: ORIGINAL: hardcybermaster but the point is that if loads of people have guns the majority of them have no clue and will shot randomly and badly, what's the outcome going to be then? More dead people It is one thing to shoot at paper targets. Quite another when the targets return fire. The latest wingnut. As far as I can tell had no combat experience. It is quite conceivable that a few rounds aimed in his general direction, even poorly aimed rounds, would have caused him to tuck tail and run. At the very least, the realization that he is not the only one armed would change his focus from cold blooded killing with ease to a more defensive posture. He would not be able to strut around and kill people with impunity. Some covering fire aimed high might have worked wonders. I wonder if any of those "poorly aimed rounds"just might find themselves of some poorly positioned innocent bystanders ? Imagine popping out of your seat intending to be a hero,and shooting some kid ?

slvemike4u -> RE: Gun Control Saving or Costing Lives? (7/24/2012 8:46:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OsideGirl quote: ORIGINAL: KYsissy My guess is that the kind of people to have a concealed carry permit are not the type to go to opening night midnight movies. At least not the the ones I personally know Actually, that theatre has a no weapons policy and the city has upheld their right to do so. So, there wouldn't have been anyone armed in that theatre. Rumor has it, it's one of the reasons he chose that particular theatre. Whose rumor ? The NRA's ?

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